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Everything posted by cjmiam

  1. I went 3 times in program and management. There are a lot of variables with NCS staff. They should be "the best", but sometimes they are just some person filling the spot. You could have a blast and you could be let down. The good thing is even if you have a less than stellar instructor, there is still a lot to learn from the others in your session. Take things that your camp does well along with you to share with others. Be ready for some long days and like others said keep an open mind. Your session will probably be a lot more fun than my last couple management sessions were. I do en
  2. Packsaddle, were you asking me for that tax clarification? I have no clue what taxes are being paid by the corporation. I was referring to the Scouts, parents, volunteers, and potential new members of the program. All tax-paying Americans, even the little Cub Scout that bought a candy bar at the local gas station and paid an extra 6% on his purchase -- entitling him the right to set his little fanny on that beach and build the biggest sand castle imaginable and then ask the parks committee if theyd like to swim in his moat. But I agree, let's wait for a decision.
  3. And before you get a chance to alter my meaning and intent and insinuate I am advocating a troop ran by buffoons... let me remind you that when I use the term training I am referring specifically to the courses offered by possible quality BSA personnel such as Fast Start, Basic, Wood Badge, ect., that allows us the honor of sewing that prestigious Trained patch on our shoulder.
  4. Bob, You wrote, Nowhere did I say that being trained was the same as being a quality leader. No and that is not what I was inferring. But you do seem to be quite set on the fact that the ONLY way we can achieve quality leaders is through training. And that is where we differ. Your equation is: Leader + Training + successful at aims and mission of Scouting = Quality Leader = Quality Program And Im saying: Leader + or - Training + successful at aims and mission of Scouting = Quality Leader = Quality Program And while Im sure you have seen many examples where yo
  5. Bob, this is where I think weve reached an impasse. It seems that you feel training provides quality leaders. While I agree that training is an important part of being a quality leader, I dont think it opens any magical door to make a quality leader or guarantee a quality program. You cant train a person personal motivation, passion, love, personal sacrifice, commitment, positive attitude or a personal desire to make the world a better place. You cant train a leader the drive that SR540Beaver exhibited when trying to find a place to meet and a charter for his unit. I believe it is t
  6. SR540Beaver, That was a nice story. And thanks for sharing. I have no doubt that your efforts were the reason you now have a charter and place to meet. I dont think I was suggesting the exclusion of a certain type of organization. Sorry if thats how it appeared. But Bob was trying to ask me what I felt was more important than quality leaders or something of that sort, when I never asserted that there was a substitute or equivalence. It was then that I used some fundamental items needed to have a troop. Bob asserted that a quality leader would overcome those obstacles and you just p
  7. Yeah the heck with equal access. Its not like they pay taxes or anything. Its not like they are members of the public. Its not like theyve probably had work days to clean up that beach. To put is simply, if this happened in my neck of the woods Id do everything humanly possible (lawfully of course) to get those individuals out of office. The good news? I think our country is fed up with this kind of garbage from people that shout for tolerance from the mountaintops yet dont tolerate any opinions differing from their own. That are so concerned with a freedom of choice as long as it
  8. Actually I believe the highest cause of crashes was found to be rubbernecking. Eyes wandering off on something more interesting than the road. But thats beside the point. Dave originally was asking how the camp director should respond. And I believe that the camp director has a legal duty to respond with more than just reporting. Again, it probably depends on how it is worded in their guidelines. But the camp director may have no clue who the guy is in the car. It might be the Scouts dad or anyone for that matter. But that too is beside the point. I believe that if laws are bei
  9. Well, that truly is a breakthrough Bob. Have you considered sharing this idea with Rod Paige? I really think the Department of Education could learn a lot from this concept. All theyd need to do is train teachers so that they learn the methods of teaching and we wouldnt have any more kids that dont know how to read. No more high school graduates unable to pass college entrance exams. No more kids being tardy or skipping school No more apathetic teenagers! It wouldnt cost a dime either, because as youve proven social and economic factors are not a factor. We all can get all of our tax d
  10. Bob, You asked, And what element do you believe affects a quality program more than the ability of the unit leaders? And I responded that I never claimed such a thing exists, but there are several factors of at least the same importance. If you do not believe that having an organization willing to sponsor a unit is at least as important as quality leaders, I cannot help you. Granted, humankind has shown us its ingenuity, creativeness, and ability to overcome some of the most insurmountable tasks imaginable. I never claimed that we dont have the ability to cope, fix or reason. I am
  11. Laurie, quality leaders are a part of what I consider a quality program. Hunt, teaching friendliness to the Scouts and having them practice it is what Id consider a part of a quality program. Bob, Im not sure what you are talking about regarding a fun trap. I dont recall mentioning it, but since you did, Ill agree, fun is indeed a part of a quality program. And yes, Bob, I too agree that quality leaders are a part of a quality program as I did with Laurie. And what element do you believe effects a quality program more than the ability of the unit leaders? I dont thi
  12. Well, first I didnt see an exclusion of Venturing in your original post. I saw simply Scout units. Can we offer a quality Venturing program without High Adventure? Bob, I believe Ive agreed with you in your original premise that quality volunteers are the key to achieving the Mission of Scouting. If you read my post, youll note that I did explain that even if our Scouts or we dont have the resources to go to summer camp or on some high adventure activity we can still achieve our Mission of instilling values in young people and prepare them to make ethical choices over their lifetime.
  13. Well, I don't have the publication number, but if you look in "The Building Blocks of Scouting" under Outdoor Program, you will find summer camp and high adventure both listed with large paragraphs about their benefits. I think it's clear that the BSA finds these important aspects of our program, as do I. Outdoor adventure could simply be camping in my back yard I suppose, but it certainly would be difficult to teach or learn a whole lot doing that all my life.
  14. While I agreed with the other thread as it was written by B.W., I had an expanding opinion that I wanted to share, but did not want to steer the thread astray. I do wholeheartedly agree that achieving the Mission of the BSA comes down to quality adult volunteers. However, I also believe that a quality program encompasses many other factors, many of which DO involve having the means to fulfill them. Further I believe that kids do not care about the quality of the leaders when they are deciding to join our program. Parents might care, but more times than not there has to be a desire fro
  15. Building character and instilling values in young people doesnt cost a cent. No amount of money will teach a kid how to make ethical choices over his lifetime or achieve his full potential. The ability of a unit to achieve its mission does rely on the quality of the adult volunteers. However, I do believe that part of the quality of one the building blocks of Scouting does rely on the ability of the unit to afford its costs. Specifically outdoor adventures. The cost of summer camp and high adventure activities can be a lot of money for some families. Is a unit achieving its mission if
  16. Far more accidents occur in Scouting because of dull knives. Thats why we have toten chip. And Im quite sure that how to deal with sleepy people isnt in the NCS binder either. Making sure campers get enough rest is however. There are probably thousands of hypothetical questions that you could insert after your what if statement. Of course as trained leaders in Scouting we are suppose to reduce risk and prevent loss. That is the primary reason we become trained. If a shooting sports director feels that someone on his range is not mentally alert, he has every right to not allow the person
  17. Bob, I respectfully disagree. I have been on national visitation teams and Mandatory Standard 5 DOES specifically pertain to the release of campers. I simply stated one of the main reasons it was implemented. However, all occurrences of Scouts leaving camp outside of the normal hours of departure should be following these guidelines. And once again, if you consider this a non-policy be my guest. However, I can guarantee you that if your camp sees it as the BSA not having a policy on the matter, they will be conditionally accredited or shut down. So does the BSA have a policy on the
  18. Bob, Dave asked if there are guidelines and I advised him that the camp director should be following the written procedures of Mandatory Standards 4 and 5. At least I view the situation as falling under those standards. Not as much 4 as 5, unless the council has it written specifically under 4. You can interpret my response as you wish, however, I do believe that I indicated that Dave would need to find out what 4 and 5 say for his council. If you interpret that as national not having a policy, be my guest. Maybe Dave can inform us all if he found my thoughts relevant or beneficial.
  19. Dave, Pardon me, but I havent posted to this board in a long time and I may get a little long winded, but I noticed your cry for and answer and Im here to provide one. I have referenced my National Camp School binder for camp management and have not found any training materials on the situation that you encountered. I looked for your benefit, but knew it would not be there. Your question as far as what the camp director should have done I think can be answered in a few different ways. What he should have done in good conscience, legally or as a matter of BSA or council policy. I
  20. I dont personally see much use for a middleman, in this case the United Way. To be thrifty I usually try to buy directly from manufacturers. Yes, I realize this could put my local computer dealer out of business, but that really is not my problem. Some organizations might not have the capability to raise funds, but I have to question why. Especially in todays world with paypal Granted, the UW has a great avenue and a lot of knowledge in the fundraising arena. I just think that its better to give directly to the organization rather than have a committee determine percentages based on the
  21. You say: My assertion that forming a new group doesn't make sense was because it does not make sense relative to this debate. It is akin to "I don't want you on my team, so why don't you go form your own team...but you still can't play with us." No, it is akin to You have different values than we do that would interfere with us delivering our organizations mission. Therefore please respect our rights to deny your membership. We wish you the best of luck and encourage you to develop a program more suited to your interests while not demanding us to change our values and sacrifice our
  22. I joined the BSA for what it stood for and continues to stand for including strong traditional family values. I dont want the organization changed. Some would like it to change to fit their needs. Again, what if unhelpful people want to join? What if untrustworthy people want to join? What if You can call it exclusionary, prejudicial, closed-minded, or whatever you like. The facts remain the same. The BSA is a private organization that has established rules for membership. Many members join the organization explicitly for the fundamentals it teaches. You state, The BSA is a won
  23. SR540Beaver writes: No, we don't see conservatives suing the BSA. We do see them spending years and millions of dollars to overthrow a twice elected popular president. We do see them sue to determine who will be president in a closely contested election. We do see them initiate recalls to throw out elected officials. All power grabs due to not being able to accept the will of the people. Those are as much an assualt on our guiding principles as booing Boy Scouts. So I write: Are you talking about a guy that had sex with interns and committed perjury while in office? Yep, I wanted him fi
  24. Bob, sorry if it appeared like I was continuing joint thoughts. I should have put a line there or something. I just really appreciated how you fairly evaluated the situation. --------------------- twocubdad, I wasnt saying that all democrats necessarily have these attributes, but that many organizations that make up the DNCs supporting cast seem to. And once again, we dont see the conservatives or right-wingers suing the BSA all over the country now do we? It must really feel great to belong to a political party that boos children. And no it wasnt symbolic, but it
  25. Bob, Very well said. When I see Scouts getting booed at the DNC, one has to wonder where their party has sunk. Just the mere fact that the BSA promotes traditional family values goes against numerous liberal organizations. Conservatives have tolerance for inequality. We call it individualism, but it is at great odds with the tenants of Socialism that the liberals hold so dear. Conservatives also have a resistance to changes that affect our constitutionally guaranteed freedoms. However, this too goes against the lefts socialist agenda. The BSA as an institution has these principles fo
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