Abel Magwitch

I am glad that others found this FOS request to be "cheesy".

I also need to clarify that our DE was a District Director overseeing two districts and our Scoutreach, In-school Scouting and LFL program. He had to take over our district for the past year because the previous DE was promoted to another district. This DD has no tact or couth. He hand picked the district chair and district committee. He does not follow district committee election procedures. He is not well liked. He came with our new SE two years ago. So he is not a green behind the ears DE.

I have watched this guy at several Eagle COH. Before the COH, he would say his hellos and then ask the SM if he could do FOS. I have seen one SM tell him no and another said yes only to regret it after.

It is the Eagle's day, not the DE's

Our DE has decided when invited to Eagle Courts of Honors to solicit FOS.

I find this to be really cheesy. This is the Eagle's special moment and the DE wants to solicit FOS.

Thoughts?

Our council has always been good at getting the unit charters and membership cards out. But not this year.

Currently no unit has received their charters or membership cards even though rechartering was done at the end of the year.

Now I have heard two reasons for this.

First reason - the council did not order the new membership cardstock (paperstock). All they have are 2010 100 years of Scouting blanks.

The DFS reason - council has up to two months to issue charters and membership cards.

Anyone else out there been waiting two months after rechartering to get their unit charters and membership cards?

UCEagle72 cites directly from the current Rules and Regulations that there is nothing written about a cor actually being a member of the co. Yet the national website states otherwise. I have seen dual sets of policies and procedures before in the realm of advancement.

I have personally experienced the SE making his own rules under the guise that he is interpreting an official rule or regulation. The SE made up rules actually contradicted the official rules and regulations but alas, it wasnt convenient to the council to follow the rules. And the volunteers aren't capable of understanding BSA policies and procedures.

5yearscouter, if your council feels that removing you as COR will resolve some controversy, they will do it regardless of what is right.

Perhaps the parent in question is a big donator. Unfortunately, you will not win even though the official rules and regulations doesnt include anything about the COR being a member of the Sponsoring Institution.

Welcome to the politics of Scouting.

I used to think that CORs really had a vote; a vote that counted. But after my own experiences with my own council and also reading what happened in the Chicago area council with their camp Owasippe, I realized that the COR vote is nothing more than a formality.

In my council rules, regulations, policies and procedures are only followed if convenient to the professional staff.

Good luck 5yearscouter.

Unit commissioner? What's that?

District commissioner? Been without for over a year.

I wish I could contribute but alas, there is little to no communication in the district or council. We continue to not have a district commissioner for over a year now, and have yet to meet the new DE who started in early January.

I would like to point out that on another thread, there was discussion concerning the council making a profit from training.

I would like to add this - (at least in my council) training is organized by volunteer training chairs and their volunteer committees (both district and council. The trainers are volunteers. The facilities used are usually churches (with no charge to the council). And there is always a fee so the council can make a profit.

What really bothers me is that during FOS time, on the flyer called the true cost of scouting (a council flyer) it mentions that FOS monies provide training yet quite frankly, training is put on by volunteers and churches with no real cost to the council yet the council will solicit their FOS making it appear that there is some high cost to training.

Perhaps it is different in other councils. But in my council, they are soliciting FOS by listing many so called "costs" that really don't exist.

I see no problem with a sponsoring institution charging a utilities fee. As a church member myself, the congregation understands that the church building exists based on the willingness of its members to pay for things like utility costs. A Scout unit is supposedly owned by the sponsoring institution. And IMHO, they are obligated to support the sponsoring institution if that Sponsoring Institution finds itself having fiscal troubles especially having to pay utility bills.

I agree with your assessment. It is not me who is eager to abandon the church, it is the way my council is now doing business in the city. One by one as units sponsored by churches are allowed to die in my district; the council newsletter every other month boasts and welcomes the new units formed in the schools. Problem is you never see these units participate in any district activities.

Perhaps one day the city school district will decide it can no longer sponsor Scouting. The city school district where I'm from is projecting a 60 million deficit for next year and teacher layoffs are being discussed.

But on the other hand, churches are also non-profit entities like the BSA. Churches are also suffering from a lack of funds. I do not think it is wrong for a church to ask for a monetary pledge from one of its youth programs as the church does own the unit.

Perhaps you could move your pack to a public school where the utilities are paid for by tax dollars. I know that is happening in my council. Council executives have no interest in churches anymore. Executives have even started moving units into county assisted housing complexes because there are county tax dollars that can be tapped into. (yep, an actual executive said this).

Or perhaps some of the council's fos dollars could be used to support your sponsor church.

SeattlePioneer

This sounds like its time for the paid professional DE to have a meeting with the institutional head and COR. In fact, the DE is supposed to meet annually with the institutional head especially at charter renewal time. The DE gets paid to be in contact with his units sponsoring institutions. Its not your job as membership chair to organize a unit committee. If the pack is failing, where is the unit commissioner? Where is the district commissioner? Failing units fall in their realm of service.

Hawkrod is correct. Its the COR who needs to take action. That is why he volunteered to be the COR. The Pack belongs to the sponsoring institution. If the SI and COR not interested in their Pack, perhaps its time for that Pack to find another sponsor.

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/04-113.pdf

The chartered organization agrees to

Conduct the Scouting program according to its own policies and guidelines as well as those of the Boy Scouts of America.

Include Scouting as part of its overall program for youth and families.

Appoint a chartered organization representative who is a member of the organization, will represent it to the Scouting district, and will serve as a voting member of the local council. (The chartered organization head or chartered organization representative must approve all leadership applications.)

Select a unit committee of parents and members of the chartered organization (minimum of three) to screen and select adult leaders who meet the organizations standards as well as the leadership standards of the BSA. The committee chair must sign all leadership applications before sending them to the chartered organization head for approval.

Provide adequate facilities for the Scouting unit(s) to meet on a regular schedule with time and place reserved.

Encourage the unit to participate in outdoor experiences, which are vital elements of Scouting.

SPL1Warwick, are you the SPL of your troop? Are you an Eagle Scout?

You mention that the Scout new about an upcoming campout, but decided on doing the project during that time anyway. You brought up questions in your posts that I myself would ask if I were an Eagle board member. I would ask the Scout if he planned for his fellow Scouts to help him with his project. If yes, I would then ask why would he schedule his project when he knew the troop would be camping. I would ask why he would ask his fellow Scouts to not go camping to work his project. That sounds a bit selfish to me. I would think the potential Eagle Scout would have been needed at the camp as a junior leader. I would question the Scout if he felt that having a project during a scheduled camp showed leadership? I personally do not believe this was leadership. And because he had so few Scouts, was he able to carry out his project as planned? Did he recruit enough others to ensure the project was carried out satisfactorily?

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/512-927.pdf

Page 9 of the workbook is for the four signatures of approval before the project even begins. I would want to know if his Scoutmaster and Troop committee approved the Scout doing his project when the Troop would be camping. Planning and approval is all about being prepared.

The second to last page of the pdf document are for the final three signatures once the project has been completed. They are the Scout, the Scoutmaster and a representative from who benefited from the project.

My final question to you is did this Scout have the needed four signatures of approval before he carried out his project?

Eagle732, I was reponding to your question. And from what you have written, you are doing things right. As a SM, the Scout needs your approval prior to starting his project. Kudos to you for maintaing a high standard before approving the Scout to begin his Eagle project.

I recently served as district advancement chair. And yes, I have been on some EBOR where the board did not find that the Scout had demonstrated leadership. And of course, the Scout appealed and received his Eagle from national. But in those cases, I was asked to be part of a board by another district advancement chair.

When a Scout came to me for his final approval prior to starting his project, there were times that I would not sign off until he revised some stuff. (I had my share of SM's who were trying to let a cheap project get by). Luckly for me, I never had a EBOR that failed the Scout. I cannot say that for my other district chairs.

Thus the reason for all the signatures prior to starting the project. If a cheap project was approved, it was approved by the SM, the troop committee, the recipient of the project and the district advancement committee. If all four entities approved a cheap project, the question of whether the Scout demonstrated leadership is left up the the Eagle Board of Review.

Abel

Not at all. From what SPL1Warwick has written, the project was competed. Which to me also indicates that the SM already approved the project.

Now of course when a Scout brings his project idea forward, it has to be approved prior to even starting the project. It is approved by the SM, the troop committee, someone from the group the project will benefit and the district or council.

It appears in this situation that the Scout went ahead with his project. So now the questions are - did the Scout have approval prior to starting his Eagle project? If not, then it wasn't an Eagle project. If it was approved and completed, then it's up to the Eagle board to decide if the project was carried out as planned and if the Scout demonstrated leadership.(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

Infoscouter writes - For years people complained about the cost of Scout uniforms, which were made in the U.S. Now they complain because they're NOT made in the U.S.

And now that the uniform is made in the thrid world, it's interesting that the high price of the uniform had not gone down.

Welcome to the forums.

Sounds like a perfect situation for the district commissioner to address. Have you been in contact with the DC?

It's up to the Eagle board of review to decide if the Scout demonstrated leadership.

Good post BadenP.

I have also noticed that many disagreements happen on the forums because some do not wish to believe that there are problems out there in the Scouting world. I have had the pleasure of corresponding with some folks; folks who had issues with Scouting - those folks who are told by others that they are just sour grapes. But I have personally found out who some of these folks are. Some turned out to be the ones who were directly affected by membership fraud and other council funny business that seems to happen at the professional level. They are usually the ones who were dismissed for whistle blowing while the perpetrators instead of being held accountable were promoted with a raise instead. Does this happen in all councils? No. But it does happen and I sympathize with these folks as some of the same stuff has happened in my council. But that's the point that is missed - there are some crooked things happening in some council's - things others find hard to believe. But make no mistake, the problems do exist.

Luckily Good Scouting does prevail in this country. And perhaps the problem areas in Scouting are simply a microcosm and not a norm. I want to believe this.

This forum has been helpful to me especially when someone sends me a personal message letting me know that they have experienced some of the same things and offer their input on how they dealt with it.

Scouting has made it 100 years. I hope it continues another 100 years. One reward of Scouting for me is when sometimes during a Scout meeting, a stranger visits. He is usually a young man sometimes dressed in a business suit. Sometimes he comes wearing a military uniform. And then you realize he was once a Scout. He is all grown up. They all come to see that their Troop is still alive and they are glad to see that some of their old leaders are still around. Those are the rewards only a veteran Scout leader can understand. It's that reward that compels a volunteer to continue Scouting - you can see the fruits of your guidance as you made an impression on a boy.

Abel

Your COR is the place to start if you are having problems with the SE.

Your COR should stick with discussing the problems with the volunteers first. Get your district chair involved. Get your district commissioner involved. Your unit should not have to put up with a bully SE. Go as high as the counicl president (a volunteer). Again the COR is your unit's voice in these types of matters.

You wouldn't be part of a Florida council would you?

Well said Eamonn

Then quite frankly, the BSA should not tell the SI that they "own" the unit. If the BSA is unwilling to be up front with a SI when organizing a new unit with the rules and regs, then it has no business telling folks that they "own" something. It needs to be pointed out that the BSA in my neck of the woods has never stated to my SI that it has "limited" ownership; that word is not used. The "owners" need to be informed of the limited nature of their ownership especially concerning funding when the unit is formed; during the DE's annual visit; at COR training.

thanks again SN ;-)

thanks ScoutNut for the info, but as far as my comments, I never implied that Scouting is a money making vehicle for the Sponsoring institution. My concerns dealt with a unit treasury if a unit dissolved.

Scouting is many times used by a church as part of it's youth program. Should the church itself decide to help fund the troop and or pack, then these rules and regs should be made known up front to the sponsoring institution when the BSA decides to grant them a Scouting charter. By the way, none of this information is part of COR training and now DE has never ever mentioned these rules and regs to our sponsoring head during their annual visit - which also never happens.

I am now curious how far back this has been written in the BSA rules and regulations. I know what professionals have told us in the past concerning the ownership of the unit, the ownership of the camp etc. And this idea that the remaining funds from a dissolved unit has never been mentioned. But then again, these rules and regs are not just sitting around the Scout office. You cannot even order them from national supply. So generally most simply go along with what a professional tells you. I now realize how clever at times the manipulation of the volunteer corps has been over the years. Perhaps training ought to include the rules and regs and policies and procedures. Now that would truly be a "quality" training. Knowledge of the rules and regs, charter and bylaws should be accessible and made known to lead volunteers (Scoutmasters, Cubmasters, Crew leaders as part of their basic training.

Just my two cents.

Proud Eagle is right when he wrote - "but of course you can never find those on-line in any reasonable form, because apparently we prefer our corporate machinery to be considerably more mysterious than an OA ceremony"

And believe me, I do educate myself on learning the rules, regs, policies and procedures. I have done so because I am tired that the boys are not getting a quality program from my council for the fees they pay. And I quickly found out that leaders in my council (both professionals and volunteers) do not like it what so ever when it is pointed out when they are not being followed.

In the end it is the boys who lose out when those in leadership positions fail to follow them or make up their own because of personal gains, or status etc. It is the boy this program is meant to serve.

Rules and Regulations are generally kept from the average Scouter at least in my council. And woe to any volunteer who actually reads them and challenges those who are not following them. All one has to do is read my posts concerning summer camp and district committee nominations to understand where I am coming from.

Thank you Scoutnut for your information you provided.(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

AlFansome, thanks for the link. I wonder if the BSA made some changes which they are just getting around to getting the info out. And yes, what you posted is word for word. Even the troop equipment is put on hold by the CO to await another unit to be started. Sounds like the BSA is wanting to control everything.

From AlFansome's link he provided - [EDITOR'S NOTE: This advice was provided to Boy Scout councils in August 2008 by Russell C. McNamer, Tax and Legal Specialist for Boy Scouts of America. Be warned: since White Rock District does not own this information, we cannot guarantee its accuracy, especially as tax laws inevitably change.

Anyone out there hear of Russell McNamer?

I would love to hear from any professional Scouters on this one. I have always been told that the CO owns the unit and thus the unit treasury and equipment. Is the BSA now saying that they now own the unit's finances?

On another note, a few years back, my troop's treasurer stopped getting bank statements. After a few months she contacted the bank to find out why. Seems that the statements were being sent to another address far away from the council. The treasurer's name was still on the statement, but the address was different. It was then that the treasurer noticed that the name of the account had been changed. The name of the account used to be Boy Scout Troop XXX in c/o of the treasurer. It had been changed to Boy Scout Troop XXX, the XXX Council BSA.

All of a sudden the name of the council appeared on the statement. Someone at the bank had changed the name of the account. At the time one of the bank's VP's was also a council VP. The troop has since opened a new account and transferred all but about $100 to the new account. The new account name is "The XXXX Church doing business as Boy Scout Troop XXX".

We have also found that other troops have realized their accounts names were changed. We would have simply overlooked it but since the treasurer was no longer receiving statements because someone had put the wrong address on the statements, we happened to contact the bank. I would challenge others out there to check to see if your unit's bank statements have had subtle changes to the account name.

There has been some real funny business going on in my council over the past few years.

Avid SM writes - If the CO dissolves a unit, then that unit no longer exists - it's charter is dropped. All of the units things and money belong to that CO, no matter what.

I have always been told this.

In our latest council newsletter, I was surprised to read this...

"What happens to the unit funds should the unit dissolve - In the event of the dissolution of a unit, or the revocation or lapse of its charter, the unit committee shall apply unit funds to the payment of unit obligations and shall turn over the surplus, if any to the local council."

Thoughts on this?

Abel