Abel Magwitch

This question is primarily for the pros out there. Volunteers who have knowledge of the subject, please chime in.

When a new adult application comes in and the background check is compete, what are the procedures to be followed if the background check reveals that the adult will be rejected?

How quickly is a background check completed? I have been told it takes about 48 hours.

How long does an adult application sit around at the Scout office until it is processed and a background check initiated?

If the background check comes back where a person is to be rejected, who is notified? Is a letter sent out to the individual? Does the institutional head of the sponsoring organization notified? Is the unit committee notified?

Should the background check reveal that the adult is a convicted sexual offender, does the BSA have an obligation to inform the unit for the protection of the youth and other adults?

With all the recent scandal, there must be a written SOP to follow.

1 What was the reason(s) that your unit decided not to sell popcorn?

When popcorn was first introduced as a way for units to supplement treasuries if they were not getting all the needed support from their sponsoring institution, we had no need to supplement our Troops funds. Even today years after popcorn was introduced, our Troop is still supported by its sponsoring institution so it has no need for selling popcorn.

2 What changes (if any) do you feel need to be made to the popcorn sale?

We have no answer as we dont sell popcorn.

3 If the above changes are made would your unit consider selling popcorn?

N/A

4 Please list any other comments or suggestions below.

None.

My district has some convicted felons who are adult leaders. One easy way to discover this is to look up the court dockets from your county court of common pleas under criminal section. It's all public record. I was suspicious of a guy in the district. Did a quick search on the court docket and found he was a convicted felon. I took my concerns to my then DE. She also looked and found what I did on the docket. I asked her the same questions - how did this guy slip past the background check? And what constitutes being a crime that would prevent an adult from being registered. It been a few years now and the individual is still quite active. Former DE did not know or would not tell me what would cause a person not to be registered.

Must be top secret council stuff.

Shortridge sums it up in a nutshell.

All that I expect is for the camp (and the program if its summer camp) to be as the council has promised for the fees charged. I expect the facilities to be that of quality. The facilities and the program are for the boys we serve. The camp should be in as good of condition as the renovated Scout office.

So KC9DDI, you consider the pro to be a visitor. Interesting.(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

My troop is volunteer run. Monies are collected for campouts for the purpose of buying food and to pay the scout camp fees. Everybody pays including the adult leaders.

At least in my district and council, it is the volunteers who organize and run events such as training, camporees etc. And in my district and council, its the volunteer leaders of these events that collect the monies, order the patches, get the food (many times they actually do the cooking) etc.

Training is many times held in various churches at no cost to the district or council. Churches here generally open their doors and allow Scouts to put on their training for the district and sometimes the council without requiring a fee.

Now I know how things have been done and continue to be done in my district and council but I like to know how it is done elsewhere

At district or council events where there is a fee, there is usually one or more pros who show up to oversee things. Again they leave things up to the volunteer leadership to organize and run the events (as this is a volunteer run organization) but they do show up. Do you volunteer leaders also charge the professional a fee to participate in the event? Or do you generally allow them a free meal that has been paid for by everybody else including the instructors?

Kudos to you Eagle. I know that you were an honest pro who decided to not want to be part of a corrupt administration during the time you served as a pro. I am sure that your former SE either retired with a lot of benefits or got promoted to ever higher paying positions in the BSA.

And I am happy for you that you are part of a council with good pros; where the youth program is thriving. I have said many times that I know that the problems I have in my council are not inclusive to every other council. It is evident that Scouting is thriving in parts of this country from the posts of others that I read.

But things in my council are pretty much the same if not worse. I know that Basement has some of the same issues I have in his council. Most of the pros are in it for themselves.

Eagle, I applaud you that you remained in Scouting after your eye opening experience as a pro. I am happy that Scouting succeeds in your neck of the woods.

Abel

Why do you need council? Why to serve your unit as they agreed to. Service with a smile ;-)

Perhaps the BSA could hire those putting on the training as paraprofessionals - like those who get paid to be unit leaders in some councils.

The uniforms of late are no longer made in mainland China. But I find it notable that when the uniforms were being made in mainland China, China forbade Scouting. At that time, China was one of only 6 countries that forbade Scouting in the whole wide world according to the World Organization of the Scouting Movement. Out of all the countries that could have produced uniforms for the BSA at a discounted price, the BSA chose a country that did not allow Scouting. Sad.

Below has been taken out of different Boy Scout handbooks over the years concerning the uniform:

"Your uniform is part of the thrill of being a Scout. Put on your uniform and you feel ready for hiking, camping, and other active Scout events."

"There is real significance to that khaki uniform. First of all, it shows that you belong."

"You are a member of the largest youth movement the free world has ever seen. It stands for the spirit of true democracy."

"It puts rich and poor on an equal basis in the spirit of brotherhood."

And finally, here are the last words from Baden-Powell to the volunteer leaders of Scouting:

"Don't let it (Scouting) became a salaried organization: keep it a voluntary movement of patriotic service."

BS-87, I am a COR and an active one at that. Been in Scouting a long time. Part of an old troop that still serves city youth, a troop with very dedicated leadership who also give of their time and resources. Scouting thrives in my church where it has died in the majority of other churches. The Scouting program that the troop delivers is one of quality and fun.

Yes, I am a COR with as much voting power at council level as those CORs in the Chicago Area Council who were eventually told that their vote really doesnt count.

Pro's come and go, but this troop along with 6 others left in the district remain.

The chartered institution supports Scouting and has for a long time. But in my council, it is the management that is failing. And they should not be.

Believe me, I have held feet to the fire, but the management all the way up to national has shown that they are not really interested in addressing problems.

You want to know more, private message me.

But pros filling out paperwork for their own benefit without regard to serving the unit is out right wrong.

And yes, I believe it is the place of the volunteer to evaluate the service it receives from the management. And who oversees the management? Why the volunteer executive board. They hire the management. They set their pay. Absolutely the program should be evaluated by those at the unit level and those evaluations sent to the board for their review. If the management truly wanted to be one of quality, they should measure themselves by the evaluations given by those who are at the receiving end of the program. Evaluating the supplier by the customer is part of quality control.(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

There is something missing concerning quality unit awards and jte. The programs in theory are supposed to be a help for the unit to succeed. But there is an underlying purpose to these awards as well - they are used by professionals to show that they have met their criticals which of course leads to promotions and raises.

What has happened in some (not all) councils and districts is that the service the unit receives from the district and council is not one of quality or excellence. And some volunteer leaders realize how this program also benefits the professional and they don't like it when a rarely seen pro decides to fill out the unit's paperwork for them. Perhaps there is a reason why the unit has refused to fill out the forms. Perhaps the DE should investigate why and perhaps they will find out that the unit is unsatisfied with the level of quality of service they are getting from the district and or council.

Quality unit awards = quality district awards = quality council awards. And when these professional criticals are achieved on paper, the pay raises and promotions are handed out to the pros. What does the unit get? Why a nice little patch to wear on their uniforms that says "quality" or excellent.

But here is what is missing - an evaluation done by the unit to rate the service it is getting from the district and council. Is the unit receiving quality or excellent service? Is the council living up to its agreement to the chartered organization? How would anyone on the executive board know if this is the case? Why should a quality unit or jte paperwork be used to evaluate a pro's performance? Since this is supposed to be a volunteer run organization, should it not be the volunteers who evaluate the pros that are supposed to be serving them?

Doesn't anyone see the problem with professionals filling out the unit's quality or jte paperwork without the input of the unit? They are in essence writing their own evaluation! So how is jte supposed to be a tool for the unit if the pro is filling out the paperwork adding his own figures? This is wrong. The pro is not serving the unit, he is cheating.

Perhaps the reason why a unit has refused to fill out the paperwork is because they are unsatisfied with the level of service it receives from the district and council. My troop has been a quality unit every year since the program began. Our troop only filled out the paperwork a few times but stopped doing so once it was found out that the paperwork benefited the pro. The service from the district and council was unsatisfactory, yet somehow the district and council kept getting quality awards. And during those years when we did not fill out the paperwork, but were listed as quality on the DEs paperwork, but the troop never recieved its ribbon, certificate and patches. Nope, we weren't worthy. because we did not cooperate with the pro. But the pro still exploited our unit by turning it in as a quality unit without the knowledge or input of the unit leadership. As someone else mentioned, what is trustworthy about a pro (who never visited the unit) filling out that unit's quality paperwork, making up stuff so he could get his promotion rather than actually doing his job of serving the unit?

So I will make this suggestion to here and to national. The former quality program, now the jte program needs to add space for the unit to evaluate the district and council. It doesnt have to be elaborate, but it should simply follow the councils agreement to the chartered organization. This part should be filled out by the unit leaders and be part of a pros criticals. Ensure that signatures are signed by both the volunteer leadership of the unit as well as the DE or DD. The council and district evaluations done by the volunteer leadership from the units should be posted for all to review. This would certainly put pressure on management to be accountable to the units it is supposed to serve.

The council agrees to respect the aims and objectives of the organization and offer the resources of Scouting to help in meeting those objectives.

How well does the council meet this promise? Excellent, satisfactory, needs improvement, unsatisfactory, poor. Comments:___________

Provide year-round training, service, and program resources to the organization and its unit(s).

How well does the council meet this promise? Excellent, satisfactory, needs improvement, unsatisfactory, poor. Comments:___________

Provide training and support for the chartered organization representative as the primary

communication link between the organization and the BSA.

How well does the council meet this promise? Excellent, satisfactory, needs improvement, unsatisfactory, poor. Comments:___________

Provide techniques and methods for selecting quality unit leaders and then share in the approval process of those leaders. (The Scout executive or designee must approve all leader applications.)

How well does the council meet this promise? Excellent, satisfactory, needs improvement, unsatisfactory, poor. Comments:___________

And finally, what I feel is the most important aspect of the councils agreement:

Provide camping facilities, a service center, and a full-time professional staff to assist the organization in every way possible.

How well does the council meet this promise? Excellent, satisfactory, needs improvement, unsatisfactory, poor. Comments:___________

I know that my troop is one of quality. The leaders of my troop have agreed that we dont need to have a patch on our uniform to prove it. Success is measured by the strength of the Troop kids keep joining and coming back every week.

It is very clear that there are professionals who have and continue to abuse the quality and jte programs for their own selfish gains by falsifying paperwork by filling out paperwork for a unit without the unit's permission simply to ensure they make their criticals when they should be instead doing their jobs by serving the units and their volunteer leaders so the a quality Scouting program can be delivered to the youth they are being paid to serve.

(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

Congratulations Basement on accomplishing gold without even lifting a pen! Simply amazing! I know your DE is proud of your Pack ;-)

I need to point out that I am not suggesting that outsiders contact these folks; my hope is that perhaps some of these folks happen to post on the forums already and would be willing to comment. It is likely that there are folks on these forums who are actually part of the Boonslick district.

I always look forward to explanations from the management when national policies are in question. But from my experience, I have also found that many times such a request is generally ignored.

If anyone thought that I was suggesting folks from the outside to contact these folks that was never my intent.

Perhaps someone from the Great Rivers Council could shed more light on why the council is allowing girls to join Cub Packs using the LFL program only for registration purposes. Perhaps the membership chair of the district or even District Director, Jon Wilson and/or District Executive Andrew Gronauer of the Boonslick District would be willing to comment on this technique here on the forums.

The kid should win his appeal. He is obviously being held back by some extenuating circumstances the EBOR only meets monthly. As a former district advancement chair, I understood that there are many Scouts who wait till the last minute. I am sure you leaders out there know of a few Scouts who procrastinate. And I knew that there would be times I would be inconvenienced because of this. But we volunteer to serve the boys. Yes, I had to drop what I was doing sometimes for a last minute Scouts. If I was unavailable, I would have another from the district advancement committee handle it.

What is a shame is that the EBOR has a history of causing problems and nobody from the district or council leadership has stepped in to resolve the problem. It should be pretty easy to inform the EBOR that they are not following policy and if they are adamant of doing things their way, making up requirements, the committee will be dismissed. So now the question becomes - where is the service this Scout deserves? I have to ask where is the council advancement chair? Where is the council commish? If this EBOR has a history of not following policy, why have these leaders not stepped in? Where are the district chair and the district committee? Were they in favor of how this EBOR was doing things? Why isn't the council doing their part keeping their agreement they made with the sponsoring institution? (You know, it's that agreement that the sponsoring institution makes to the council and the council agrees to serve the sponsoring institution)? This is where the DE is supposed to step in.

Now the council is going to find itself in a real pickle as the race card has been played. I suspect that this boys appeal for an extension will now quickly be approved. The race card is a reality today and it is very powerful. But from what I have read, the council by allowing this EBOR to continue its operations due to what I believe is apathy has made their bed and now has to lie in it. IMHO, if only the pros would really be concerned with the youth program itself rather than working on their criticals. Their salaries are added to program on their councils tax returns. Sounds like they arent doing a good job managing their volunteers.

I know that some of my words may sound harsh, but I am speaking from my own experiences from my own council. As a former district advancement chair, I worked very hard to make sure that advancement policy was adhered to no more, no less. I had my own situations where a scout requested an extension of time because he decided to start the personal fitness badge a week before his 18th birthday. At the time I was a merit badge counselor for the badge as well as the advancement chair. I told the scout that he would be ineligible for Eagle as he ran out of time. I asked him why he waited so long to start the badge. His response was that he simply procrastinated. The boy appealed and the SE granted the extension. All appeals were approved by him. I also worked hard to make sure that the council followed advancement policy at summer camp by hiring actual 18 year old merit badge counselors. But council refused and continued to have 14 and 15 year olds counseling the merit badges. A scout in my council can earn merit badges by simply talking about it instead of doing the requirements. Hiking for 4 hours gets you the hiking mb. Cooking a single pancake gets you the cooking mb. Discussing motorboating while the boat sits broken all week gets you the mb.

The council pros told me that they have every right to break national advancement policies as they made the rules in the council.

I wish I could be there in your council Eagle to watch the fun now that the race card has been laid on the table.

http://www.bsalegal.org/gender-cases-226.asp

And yet in other parts of the country, girls have been turned away from Cub Scouts. People have actually taken the BSA to court.

The BSA maintains that its Cub Scout and Boy Scout programs are for boys only.

I predict that the BSA will turn a blind eye to the breach in their policies concerning girls not being allowed to join the Cub Scouts as this is the first Hispanic Pack in the city and the BSA is pushing their Hispanic Initiative and will not want to make waves by putting the kibosh on this new Hispanic Pack which is obviously thriving.

It is also apparent that the council must feel that it is ok to break their own policies by allowing this girl to be a Cub Scout while registering under a program that the BSA emphatically states is NOT a Boy Scout program. This girl is not receiving the LFL program for which she was registered, she is receiving the Cub Scout program and the LFL registration was only a formality to get her officially on the membership rolls.

From my own personal observations over the years I have found that the BSA will only adhere to their own policies out of convenience - if it's going to cost the council money, council will break BSA policies; if there is money to be made by deviating from a BSA policy, they will simply overlook them.

This is a success story, a success story all away around. This is an active Pack which is serving youth, and most importantly for the council, it is bringing in funds. Good monies have already been spent uniforming the new girl Cub. And the BSA was able to collect some dough by registering her even though she is not getting the LFL program which she was registered for. You can bet that the BSA will be more than happy having this girl Cub selling popcorn.

What is unfortunate for the girl is that she is part of an all boy inclusive Cub Scout program, all her books - wolf, bear, webelo are boy inclusive. Cub Scout materials are for the boys and are not co-ed. No girls allowed says the BSA.

On a side note: somebody asked the question if LFL was covered by the supplemental insurance. The answer is yes.(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

The following is a statement that has been used several times by the BSA by different spokesmen:

"Learning for Life programs are not Boy Scout programs and Boy Scout membership requirements have no relevance to Learning for Life programs."

So with such an official response coming out of national to the media, I cannot see how this Cub Pack is getting away with having girls participate in the Pack and registering that member as LFL, a school based program.

(Deron Smith, a spokesman for Boy Scouts of America, wrote the above in one of two e-mails to the St. Petersburg Times)

http://www.tampabay.com/news/education/k12/board-members-hold-fast-to-rejecting-program-affiliated-with-boy-scouts/1196526

LFL started out as in school scouting from what I recall. Then the BSA decided to morph the program into LFL when local chapters of the United Way stopped funding Scouting because it was considered discriminatory. Some United Way chapters only donate funds to the LFL program instead of the BSA program, yet those funds still go to the local BSA council.

Exploring now falls under the LFL division.

In some councils, the LFL membership outnumbers all the traditional membership combined, but it certainly brings in the dough.

But some school districts are starting to catch on that LFL is run by the BSA and have decided to drop the program.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/florida-school-board-cuts-funding-to-boy-scouts-program-over-anti-gay-stance/

Moosetracker makes some interesting comments:

....Yeah, makes me curious about LFL too.. All I know about it is that is where they now have placed the Explorer group, and it allows them to be more open to homosexuals and (I believe) athiests.. So although LFL is just that I always think of the Venture age youth.. I would imagine they do though have programs for younger & older.. But, can signing up fo LFL allow you to work on the cub scout ranks??? Hmmm... I think only if LFL has a way to award them officially.. Because as a cub scout you can not earn boy scout rank. But, then as a Venturer you can earn BS rank, but only in the condition that you are a boy, and have made it to First Class in a BS troop, and if no longer part of a BS troop, then the Venturing unit awards you the ranks, not the BS unit. She though is registered, which I guess would take care of any worries about being insured while out at a BSA event....

Here is the Learning for Life mission and position statement:

Mission

To develop and deliver engaging, research based academic, character, leadership and career focused programs aligned to state and national standards that guide and enable all students to achieve their full potential.

Position Statement

"Learning for Life programs are designed for all age groups from pre-kindergarten through age 20. Youth participation is open to any youth in the prescribed age group for that particular program."

"Color, race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic background, disability, economic status or citizenship is not criteria for participation."

From the Charter and By Laws of the BSA

"Clause 2. Learning for Life is a nontraditional, nonmembership,

educational outreach program that takes place during or after

school hours and is not part of the traditional Scouting program."

So it appears that this method of registering girls as LFL and letting them participate as Cub Scouts goes against the policies of the Boy Scout program as the traditional Boy Scouting programs do not allow girls, atheists or homosexuals."

But as long as it brings in money, the BSA will probably simply turn a blind eye.(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

Yep, seen it happen in my council. one SE retired and the membership dropped. New SE came and was able to start his tenure with a lot less members. It was then easy to raise membership every year using his special programs membership. Council membership grew by the thousands (supposedly) and when it was time to get promoted, and the next SE came aboard, the membership again dropped by thousands overnight! The next SE told the executive board that membership numbers had been manipulated and that the problem was taken care of. Executive board was happy but they chose not to tell anybody else in the Scouting community that this had happened. They thought it might hurt FOS and other money raising if the word got out. Gotta keep it hush, hush.

So... what happened to the SE who was supposely manipulating membership?

Was he fired?

Was he demoted?

Nope - he was promoted to texas for a few years. And now he is back as an SE of a really big council and making a really big salary. And I can almost guarantee that nobody in his new council knows what happened in his last council. I expect that this council's membership will reflect a big loss on it's coming annual report.

But don't take my word for this membership pattern, see for yourself. All one has to do is get a hold of your council's annual reports through the years. Your council will be glad to give you these as they are public information. Take a look at the membership numbers through the years and watch how it drops whenever an SE leaves and a new one comes aboard.

I think you might also be surprised to find how many members your council is reporting to the community. My council reports tens of thousands youth yet they are nowhere to be seen. Where are all these boys the council claims? With all this youth being served, one would think that district camporees and councilwide events would be overflowing with boys.

Nope.

There are only a handful of troops left on my side of the city where 25 years ago there were over 35 strong traditional troops. My district still hasn't had a single district Boy Scout activity in the past 10 years since our district was reformed and renamed.

Hmmm, where are all the Scouts?

I have no use for corporate scouting. I put my efforts into my unit.(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

Shortridge, I have also noticed that the 990's usually do not match up with what is posted on the annual report given at the annual council business meeting. Very interesting stuff can be found on the irs 990. There are some better sites out there besides guidestar that provide 990's going back about 10 years. Then you can really see some interesting numbers.

Our troop does it that way. Usually a quick breakfast of a danish and milk. We usually are out the gate by 9:00am on Sunday.