Abel Magwitch

Why that's a chinese yellow billed bird of paradise. Very rare in the US

Beavah, you nailed it completely.

I needed to add this final edit to my above post.

After Policy Prohibiting Discriminating/Harassment of students should read:

It is the policy to maintain an educational environment that is free from discrimination because of an individual's sex, race, color, national origin, religion, sexual orientation or disability.

The problem I see with public schools chartering BSA units is that public schools are allowing an outside private organization that does in fact have requirements thatcan discriminate.

Below are some of the restrictions that the BSA is allowed to implement as they are a private not a public organization:

From http://www.bsalegal.org/litigation-222.asp

The Boy Scouts have a policy on the declaration of Religious Principal to be a member of the Boy Scouts; one must declare that they believe in God:

From Bylaws of Boy Scouts of America, art. IX, 1, cl. 1- [The Boy Scouts] policy is that the home and the organization with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

The Boy Scouts have a policy against homosexuality to be a member of the Scouts, one cannot be a homosexual and members must be willing to accept this:

Boy Scouts of America believes that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the obligations in the Scout Oath and Scout Law to be morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed. The conduct of youth members must be in compliance with the Scout Oath and Law, and membership in Boy Scouts of America is contingent upon the willingness to accept Scoutings values and beliefs.

The Boy Scouts do not allow girls to become Boy Scouts a girl cannot be a Boy Scout or Cub Scout:

Teaching "Boys to Do Things for Themselves and Others - According to Boy Scouts of Americas Charter The purpose of this corporation shall be to promote . . . the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in Scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues . . .

The Boy Scouts have age and grade requirements Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts and Venturers have age and grade requirements:

Cub Scouts - For boys in first grade through fifth grade (or seven through 10 years of age)

Boy Scouts - For boys who are 11 through 17 years of age, or have earned the Cub Scouting Arrow of Light award and are at least 10 years old, or have completed the fifth grade and are at least 10 years old

Venturing - For young men and women 14 (and have completed the eighth grade) through 20 years of age

The school system in my city as well as the various charter schools is considered public not private schools. And because they are public entities, they are not allowed to discriminate as they are all funded with public tax dollars.

Here are some of my citys school district policies pertaining to discrimination. These policies are indeed contrary to what the BSA requires to be a member. These policies pertain to Sex, Sexual Orientation, Age and Religion:

Policy Prohibiting Discrimination/Harassment of Students

I find it disappointing that the BSA has chosen an easy route by making up an alternative definition for active rather than upholding the current definition as written in the Rules and Regulations. Like I said before, I wonder if the national advancement task force even took a moment to review the BSA rules and regulations prior to publishing their new definition. I wonder if they even know about the rules and regulations.

So John, now you see a change coming in the rules and regulations. Instead of national reinventing the wheel, why cant they just stick to whats already written?

Quite frankly, the definition for active and associate in the rules and regulations were sound definitions. They made sense. Unfortunately, those Scout's who did not pass their Eagle BOR because they chose not to be an active member by obligating himself to attend meetings regularly; didnt fulfill his obligation to the unit because he had other obligations outside of Scouting generally won their appeals at national. Of course national never provided any details on how they reached their conclusions. The boy simply had his Eagle approved. And why was this? Was national trying to avoid angry parents and lawsuits?

National failed to follow their own rules and regulations. I truly believe that those who came up with the new definition (which is really not a definition for the word active) never took the time to investigate whether there was a definition for active already written.

Be careful of what you ask for. You just might get it.

Folks asked for a program definition of active. National provided it.

You are correct - folks asked for a definition because the BSA rules and regulations are not readily available. They can no longer be purchased at the Scout store. Unless you have a copy and read it, there was no other place where active was defined.

So what policies are to be followed? Which ones will be allowed to be broken? The BSA states that they have timeless values and strong character. The BSA should stick to their policies and procedures.

National did not provide the definition for active they simply made up a new one. The BSA should really change the requirements for Eagle removing the word active all together.

Eagle, I have to disagree with some of your earlier points:

trainings - are put on by volunteers. Usually held at various sponsoring institutions at no cost to council. Materials costs are covered by training fees.

summer camp - Scouts pay good money to go to summer camp. In my council, Scouts do not get promised program for fees paid due to the ineptness of the council.

camporees - and klondike derbies and other weekend events are run by volunteers. Many times these events are held off council property at local parks. There is always a participation fee which covers the event patch and possibly a light lunch.

day camps - same as above

salaries for summer camp staff - the amount paid to the summer camp staff is so small, council has trouble finding anybody to be on staff at all. (This is one of the biggest problems at our council summer camp; lack of qualified staff). Many times underage Scouts are hired to be merit badge counselors to save the council money.

council service center - Got a complete makeover while the council campground is left in disrepair. Scouts do not receive program at the service center. Much of the renovation costs were covered by business contributions.

camp - a sore spot in my council. Camp in dire need of major renovations. Preventative maintenance not done. Some cabins no longer usable. Roads washed out by creek. Lawns not cut due to broken down equipment. Very small summer camp attendance due to poor program. Majority of council troops summer camp out of council. Many areas closed at summer camp due to shortage of hired staff.

This is probably the biggest chunk as it also covers electricity, water, insurance, etc. - As listed on my councils annual report; this is a very small chunk as compared to professional salaries.

I have also made the observation through the years that FOS is already conveniently built into the scouting program in my council as the volunteer is charged a fee for almost everything. Many times services are not rendered for the fees charged.

The latest fos mailing came with a letter entitled "The true cost of scouting"

Many of the things listed on the letter are already paid for with registration fees. Other items are given freely though corporate donations. I find this mailing misleading. Its aim is obviously to make people believe that these items are costing the council money compelling them to donate to fos.

Volunteer and Staff Training Training for more than 1,000 volunteer leaders every year.

(Training costs the volunteer money. There is always a fee for a volunteer to take training. Most training is held at sponsoring institutions such as churches at no cost to the council.)

Insurance Coverage To protect our volunteers, staff, members and property.

(Insurance is covered in a scouts registration fee. Adult volunteers also pay for insurance in their registration fee.)

Support Staff for registration, typing publications, and program support.

(Units are being encouraged more and more to do things on the internet like yearly registrations, and advancement essentially doing the data entry normally done by the support staff.)

Reference Publications and Resources Everything from program planning kits and Program helps to camping information books

(Most are available at the scout shop for a fee.)

Camp Promotion

(You need to maintain the camps if you want scouts to use the camp. Scouts do not camp at the remodeled service center. The camp is in constant disrepair. Another pool due to neglect has been lost. There is one pool left, and when it goes

A good camp program and staff promotes the camp better than any advertising. Unfortunately, this is usually not the case. The large numbers of council troops using other council camps gives the strongest testimony to this fact.)

Administrative Needs Postage, computers and link-up to the National Computer System, copy machines, folding machines, print shop.

(There is no longer a print shop in my council. The print shop was one of the first things our previous Council Executive got rid of to save money, yet it is still being listed on the fos letter. Mailings could be folded and put into smaller envelopes to save postage, but many times mail is put in large, extra postage required envelopes. Many of the service center computers have been donated by big business.)

Camp Equipment Tents, cooking equipment, camp vehicles, building repairs, canoes, equipment replacement and repair, and upkeep of your council camps.

(Tents? Troops supply their own tents. As for the camp upkeep, the volunteers are always called upon, asking for free help and free supplies. At other times, the U.S. Navy Seabees, and other volunteers help maintain the camp at little or no cost. The scout office will even show volunteers paperwork that claims money has been spent on new rifles, yet it was written in an earlier council newsletter that the rifles were graciously donated. (Some pesky volunteers save their council newsletters.)

Recognitions For leaders who attend training, volunteer for special projects and help out in many roles throughout scouting.

(There are always fees for training, fees to attend recognition dinners, fees to buy the awards etc. That is why the recognition dinners cost so much, funding is needed for the awards.)

Professional Staff Our full-time staff who work with volunteers to organize new units, manage fundraising programs, conduct trainings, work with membership recruitment, provide counseling and advice for your district, our camps, and programs.

(Yet being a volunteer organization, it is the volunteers that conducts training, recruits members etc, not the professional staff.)

Friendly Camp Ranger To keep our beautiful camp up-to-date and ready for our scouts

(Friendly is a subjective term. Our Ranger has been quick to yell at a scout for wearing a hat in the dining hall. When at camp, Mr. Ranger pretty much stays away from the volunteer leaders using the camp. As for work, he does work hard. He is one of the hardest working people I have ever met. He does the best that he can with the minimal funds that are given by the executives at the nicely remodeled scout office.)

Service Center Utilities, insurance, repairs and care for your headquarters.

(The service center gets a makeover while another pool bites the dust at camp. Council has tapped into the natural resources at our council camp (logging, natural gas) yet the fees continue to rise.)

Charter Fees For every Scouting youth, leader, and unit.

(Charter fees are paid for by the membership when they join.)

Audio Visual Supplies Used in training camp support.

(Much if not all was given as a donation, without costing the Council a penny. I cannot justify the council purchasing those nice plasma TVs at the scout office. (A scout is thrifty.)

Postage Mailings to leaders, parents and youth Members.

(Cant comment much on this one. Postage is one of the necessary evils needed to run any organization, though many times, things are being done electronically. The Scout office still requires many things to be done in person by the unit leader who must come to the service center. On a side note, postage is wasted when the same piece of mail is sent to everyone in a scouting family living in the same house. If there are 4 registered scouters at the same address, they will get 4 pieces of the same mail.)

Council Newsletter The council's bi-monthly is published so members know what is going on in scouting.

(The council newsletter is being printed at no cost to the council by a local printing firm. This was one of the reasons why the print shop was closed.)

Council Website Go online to learn more about your council and its programs.

(I am sure that the site has a minimal cost to run. The site is graciously maintained by a volunteer.)

As I have shown above, at least in my council, the costs are already conveniently built into the program.

In 2003,the annual report of my council actually listed employee compensaton. The figure was $1,418,354. This figure far exceeded any other council expenses.

The employee compensation has never again been listed on an annual report again but the program expenses have shown an increas of over a million and a half on subsequent annual reports. So the professional payroll is quietly included in the program. And that's the selling point of the fos flyer.

I know that at least in my council, program is handled by the volunteers.

I find it most deceptive four our council to include the professional payroll in the "program" part of the pie chart. The professionals are not providing program to the youth, it is the volunteers that do so.

My council has an abundance of professionals on the payroll to serve our council's supposed abundant youth membership. Unfortunately there are several problems - One, you rarely see the professional staff involved in any council, district or unit events and second, I have only ever seen a fraction of the youth our council supposedly has at any district or council events.

We do let our parents know that if they wish to contribute to Scouting, that their donation is just as tax deductable if they donate it to their son's unit. That way at least they know that their monies will be directly used in their son's Scouting experience.

Hi Neil - there are the charter and bylaws and the rules and regulations. They are separate. The definition for active is in the rules and regulations.

Abel

The Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America define both an active member and an associate member.

The definition for active as it is now written in the Advancement Policies and Procedures book is more in line with an associate member rather than an active member.

So the question why did the BSA decide to re-define active in their advancement policies when there was already a definition for active written in the BSA rules and regulations?

The new definition seems contrary to what is already written in the rules and regulations. I wonder if the national advancement task force even took a moment to review the BSA rules and regulations prior to publishing their new definition?

Any thoughts on this?

Abel

Active as defined in the advancement book -

He is registered in his unit (registration fees are current).

He has not been dismissed from his unit for disciplinary reasons.

He is engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis.

Active as written in the BSA rules and regulations

ARTICLE VII YOUTH MEMBER

Active

Clause 1 An active youth member is one who, with the approval of a parent or guardian if necessary, becomes a member of a unit; obligates himself or herself to attend the meetings regularly; fulfills a member's obligation to the unit; subscribes to the Scout Oath or the code of his or her respective program; and participates in an appropriate program based on a member's age, as promulgated from time to time by the Boy Scouts of America.

Associate

Clause 2 Any youth member who, in the judgment of the unit leader and the unit committee, is unable to meet the requirements of active membership may be carried on the unit records as an associate, provided the individual attends at least one meeting of the unit within the year and in all other respects is guided by the obligations of an active member.

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By the way Oak Tree, my council is stating on the fos card that it costs $175 to support one Scout.

I received my fos card in the mail. And as usual, the pie chart that represents the allocation of funds is broken down this way. 5% of funds are allocated for administration, 9% of funds are allocated for fund raising, and a whopping 86% of funds are allocated directly to program.

I am curious how council break down "program". What does program include? How do the units benefit from FOS monies being allocated to program?

Any professionals or volunteers like to comment on how program funding is broken down in your councils?

Abel

Beavah, I want to thank you for posting the definition for active right out of the rules and regulations. It has been a real eye opener. It makes me feel that I have wasted my time in the advancement committee. It is apparent that in scouting as far as national is concerned, anything goes. New rules are made that supersede other rules.

Unfortunately, the rules and regulations are no longer available from national supply. One cannot simply walk into the scout store and purchase a copy for a buck and a half. A volunteer now has to go through council so a request can be made of the chief scout executive. I have to ask why has the BSA taken the rules off the shelves of national supply? It looks like the BSA wants to hide the rules and regulations so others can make up their own rules and regulations.

I am reminded of the movie blazing saddles when slim pickens and his gang found themselves in front of the le'petamane toll booth. Someone has to go back to get a s**t load of dimes.

And once they got to the phony rock ridge, slim pickens realized they were had. It was a fake! They were duped.

I have been duped.

I now have a copy of the rules and regs of the bsa. And was surprised to also find a definition of an associate member (a scout that is not active).

And yet the very few times our council had a scout who failed to pass his Eagle BOR because the scout had chose not to be active in the Scout program because of sports or what ever he chose to do instead of scouting, the appeal always came back approved by the national advancement committee. No reasons were ever given.

So our advancement committee wrote their letter to national requesting the definition for active. And we received an answer. The new definition of active has been published in the advancement policies book. But the definition is not one for active; rather it has nothing at all to do with active.

Yet now I realize that there was no reason to have to ask for a definition for active. It was already spelled out in the rules and regs as well as a definition for inactive. It really looks like those at national are just a bit in error by making up phony definitions that are being published in their advancement literature which you can purchase while at the same time making it a chore to get the real answer that was there all along.

Thanks again Beavah for the info.

And for TwoCubDad, how did the letter end? Actually something like this - it's not a perfect world, but we try to do our best. Thank you for your service and passion in trying to ensure the advancement program is fair for all scouts.

Now I say horse puckey.

As for the heart of the matter - I now truly believe that it's the first paragraph you wrote

"Consequently, the Boy Scouts of America has adopted a "least common denominator" policy in which ensures all registered Scouts, regardless of their actual participation in troop and patrol activities can meet these requirement."

When things break down at the top, everything else follows. And it's really apparent to me that the top rules and regs are being purposely kept out of sight.

Sigh...

I have really learned a lot from this forum about the politics of scouting.

Abel

Writing a percentage requirement into a unit's bylaws

Again I quote "No council, district, UNIT, or individual has the authority to add to or subtract from advancement requirements.

What I have found to be true in many cases is that many problems in Scouting arise because others decide to ignore the written policies and procedures and choose to make up their own. If only people would follow what is already written. The writer of the current Advancement Policies and Procedures book wrote me a letter concerning this very topic

Unfortunately this is the constant battle when well intended volunteers decide to set their own standards instead of following the existing programs. I am constantly amazed at how and why people think they have a 'better mousetrap' and if everything was done their way the world would be a better place. Somehow the idea that others also have a brain and perhaps 'stuff' has been thought out and is as it is for 'real' reasons escapes some folks! If all of us were equal in brain power, resources, geography, family and financial status then perhaps some specific parameters as to hours, #'s of participants, durability, percentages etc. would be in order. However, this is not the case anywhere in this country or for scouts of traveling military families, diplomatic families, etc. Thus, boys need to be judged on their own merits and talents as to access, availability, & performance where the standard is absolutely just as stated in the requirements. No more or no less.

And as I have told others, these are not my policies and procedures; they are BSA policies and procedures. If anyone disagrees with them, they are welcome to write their suggestions to national in care of the national advancement task force. But again, problems arise when others in positions of power decide that they can circumvent policies and procedures. In the end, it is the Scout who loses out.

Abel

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Then your council and some of its adult leadership are in the wrong.

As far as a Scout is concerned, he is to do the requirements, no more and no less.

And as far as the Scout's adult leadership is concerned, no council, district, unit, or individual has the authority to add to or subtract from advancement requirements.

I would start with your district Advancement chair on this one.

Abel

89camper, I agree that mistakes in judgment do happen from time to time. But this is not the case in my council.

It is apparent that you must be part of a functional council.

As for ANYONE chewing out another and spitting them out - that's totally unacceptable behavior for both volunteer and professional alike. Those kinds of people do not belong in Scouting at all. But you do seem to be painting volunteers with a broad brush. I have experienced some disrespectful young professionals giving hell to Scoutmasters at summer camp. Look up my summer camp woes thread sometime.

Both volunteers and professionals in Scouting are supposed to serve. But the volunteer has a special place in this volunteer movement. Volunteers do not work for pay, but serve unselfishly because they want to. Their rewards come when the seeds they plant in the Scouts begin to sprout. It is the lowly Den Leader and Scoutmaster who work in the trenches directly with the boys. That is the heart of the program without them; there would be no need for professionals.

I have observed plenty of young professionals right out of college who never experienced Scouting until the day they were hired. I find many times it is the professionals inexperienced with Scouting outside of their professional training that have the most problems with the volunteers, especially the older ones.

Are you an Eagle Scout by chance? Assuming that you were a Scout, did you enjoy your Scouting experience when you were a youth? And which adults most influenced you the most? Your Scoutmaster or your DE?

Since you asked, the turnover rate in my company is pretty low. But then again, I work for my city in its safety forces. We are a paramilitary group. We all know are place in the chain of command and generally, we truly get along with each other.

I will be asking for the bylaws of my council. But council has been reluctant to give any information out. I asked for a list of the COR's in my district. The district commissioner informed me that he was told not to give them to me by the DE and director of field service. Funny how these things work sometimes.

I know my situation in my council well. And I really don't think you are part of my council. Six years ago when our council got a new SE, he fired the entire professional staff of DE's from the last administration and brought over young DE's from his old council. I was truly shocked to find that these professionals were simply out of a job all of a sudden. I hope you don't experience a situation like that someday.

I hope you the best in your career in Scouting and hope you are spared having to work in a council that would challenge your own integrity and ethical principles. It is apparent that there are many former professionals out there; good people who left the professional ranks of the BSA because they realized that they could not bring themselves to be unethical. I do commend them, especially those who were former Scouts and had the courage to take a stand by not participating in corrupt business practices. From what I have read of Eagle92 and BadenP, they made those tough decisions to leave rather than do the bidding of a less than ethical SE. It is unfortunate that the temptation of greed often dictates to those in power.

Be well 89camper

Abel

Well 89camper, I can tell you that you aren't part of my council. And I can tell you that Scouting is not the same in every council. Hopefully, you belong to a thriving council where the professional leadership is doing the right things for the right reasons. I shall also assume that you are a professional.

I enjoy learning from the professionals both current and former. I have gained some real useful insights into the inner workings of the program that I never knew existed. And I have been around the block a few times in Scouting. In my council, we go through DE's like the leaves falling in Autumn. And it's interesting that those I talk to after they have left Scouting pretty much have the same things to say - I didn't like what I was told to do by the upper management. They didn't like how they were told to manipulate the volunteers. They did not like having to perform unethical tasks in order to obtain their membership criticals. Quite frankly, with as many former professionals saying the same things, I do believe that some councils are really out of touch with the timeless values they say they stand for.

When you state that the bylaws supersede everything, then quite frankly, they should be added to every BSA publication and BSA training. But they are not. And in my council, very few know they exist at all. So yes, quite frankly in my council, they are kept away from the volunteers; they are secret.

Apparently the bylaws allow the professionals in my council to dictate to the council advancement committee by telling them that 15 year olds are allowed to "counsel" merit badges at summer camp. The bylaws allow the director of field service to not approve a district nominating committee even though it's the council president's job to approve or disapprove the district nominating committee. I could go on with how many policies and procedures have been superseded by our council professional staff, but I will spare the forum community.

And my final advice to the author of this thread Narraticong, is to ask your former DC what happened. Go right to the source and find out what went on. And if you find that things stink, gather up your COR's of the district and let them in on it. Find out if what was suggested as the reason for dismissal was true. Find out what the conflicts were about. Find out what if anything was done wrong by the DC. Above all get involved and get your district involved. Your COR's do have a voice that I found the professionals do not like to hear.

Abel, COR

Ah yes, the hidden bylaws. They are supposedly locked away somewhere in the SE's office. The hidden adgenda that is normally kept from the volunteer (at least in my council).

The bylaws aren't just laying around for everyone to see. Most volunteers in my council don't even know they exist.

So in other words, the bylaws supercede any training, any BSA policies and procedures written in various BSA publications. Do I understand this correctly?

Should I simply disregard my copy of The District Committee election procedures, #33157?

Is that what you are implying 89camper? That the bylaws can supercede BSA policies and procedures at the convenience of the council?

On the contrary 89camper, the council president does not appoint the district chair; the district chair is nominated and elected.

I respectfully have to disagree with you. Those who elected the district chair, especially the chartered reps of the district who are voting members of both district and council do in fact deserve an explanation on why the district chair they elected was removed.

Eagle96,

I have been noticing trends in my council. I have been able to research our council's membership numbers through the years. All the way back to the 1920's. But starting in the 70's, everytime the council got a new SE, the membership numbers dropped significantly, anywhere from 4,000 members to a one time loss of amost 18,000 during one of the SE transitions. The loss always came from special programs.

One of my conclusions is that the oncoming SE is allowed to start his tenure with a lower number youth, and I do mean lower. It is then quite easy for the new SE to make his criticals by showing a nice steady increase of membership. And of course, the increases only really happen in the special programs area. Special programs seem to be a nice out of sight, out of mind way to manipulate membership totals.

Something really stinks at our Scout office.

BadenP, These things have just happened in my council. I guess I belong to one of those exceptions. Very sad state of affairs of late. SE got promoted, numbers looked funny, audit team came in and long time executive board member told to step down for questioning things. Very sad indeed.

jhankins, what you said constitutes FRAUD!

It's fraud at the professional level.

So here is a question - what are the consequences to the professional(s) that committed the fraud in the first place? When the audit team comes and sweeps the mess under the rug what then happens to those professionals who benefited with promotions and raises due to the fraud they committed?

As I stated before in another thread, my council advancement committee requested thatnational define the word active and to publish it so that advancement committees everywhere could avoid the problems that could arise when others have multiple opinions concerning requirementswhere the word active is used.

An email was sent to national requesting a definition for active:

...In order for our committee to better serve our council in the future, our council advancement committee also needs clarification and a definition of the word active from the policy writers in the national committee. For the rank of Eagle Scout, the word active is used in the 1st and 4th requirements. A clear understanding of the word active and how it is applied to the Eagle requirements would help prevent any further misunderstandings

A reply was received with the following explanation for the word active:

Suggested BSA definition of active as it applies to Requirement #1 of Star, Life and Eagle advancement requirements:

A Scout will be considered active in his unit if he is:

1) Registered in his unit (registration fees are current).

2) Has not been dismissed from his unit for disciplinary reasons.

3) Informs the Scout of unit activities and events. (Scoutmasters conference, participation in unit activities, through personal contact, etc).

(Comment: This definition could be added as a side bar or box on page(s) 24-25 of the Advancement Policies and Procedures book)

Adopted and approved 2/7/05

So in other words, national was approving appeals from Scouts who did not pass their EBOR because they were not active by using their suggested definition of active that was adopted and approved in 2005, yetnever published.

Another letter was sent from our advancement committee to national stating that the definition for active be published to the Scouting membership rather than being a suggested definition at the national level. The committee also stated that nationals definition for active was in error, but we would ensure that our council would carry out the recommendations of national and train our membership on how active is defined by the national advancement committee.

But we also made a strong suggestion to national that that they revise Eagle requirements 1 and 4 to read:

Requirement 1: Be a registered Boy Scout with all fees paid for a minimum of 6 months as a Life Scout.

Requirement 4: While being a registered Boy Scout with all fees paid, carry out a position of junior leadership, fulfilling the requirements of the position for a minimum of 6 months.

In other words we suggested to national to get rid of the word active altogether. These revised requirements would better reflect nationals definition of active. Writing the requirements this way would help put to an end the many disputes between scouts, their parents, and their leaders concerning requirements 1 and 4 for Eagle Scout. But so far, national continues to use the word active in the Eagle requirements.

So this begs the real question why does the BSA need to have alternative definitions for the word active in the first place? And why did national never publish their alternative definitions to the volunteer membership?

The only conclusions I could come up with was that to the BSA, the word active had two definitions one for the 99% of scouts who actually fulfill the requirements by being an active participant in his troop, and the other definition for the 1% of scouts who choose to circumvent those inconvenient requirements 1 & 4 because of a sports or other obligations the scout chooses to be active in instead.

Abel

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Beavah, I have to disagree.

Eagle Requirement 4 - While a Life Scout, serve actively for a period of 6 months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility...

A position of responsibility - responsibility is the key word here. This goes beyond simply holding a position in name only. If a Scout is a senior patrol leader, but never shows up to a meeting or an event, then that Scout is not "leading" his Troop. The troop needs its senior patrol leader to show up so he can manage the troop. It's a position of responsiblity. And the troop has every right to take away this position of responsiblity from a Scout who is not showing up because he is playing soccer.

What I found interesting was your analogy of the Scout losing his position and then whining about losing the it and requesting another position from the SPL. I don't believe a good SPL would allow that Scout another position of responsiblity unless he could be assured that the Scout would carry out the position responsibly. A good SPL would want a quartermaster who is willing to do the job. That's why he is the senior patrol "leader".

"Besides, we don't remove boys who are strugglin', eh? That's not Scouting. We work with 'em, but we don't reward 'em until they succeed. So a good SM works with a boy who is tryin' to figure out how to be responsible in his position, but he doesn't reward the lad until responsibility is really demonstrated for 4 months, or 6 months. That's the Scouting program. We also don't remove lads that the other boys have elected. That's up to them, eh? It's how we teach citizenship. That's the Scouting program, too."

Struggling? A Scout who makes his own choice that he will be an active participant with his soccer team instead of coming to Troop meetings and activities; a choice not to carry out his leadership position responsibly is not struggling. The Scout has simply chosen his priorities.

Don't get me wrong, I want Scouts to succeed. Our council advancement committee wants Scouts to succeed. I have stated before on this forum that our council advancement committee disagrees with actually dismissing a Scout from the program because he is not showing up all the time. If a Scout comes to even one meeting a month, Scouting can still be a positive influence on him. But if the Scout chooses sports or other activities that will completely take him away from Scouting, then why should he be given a position of responsibility in name only? Doing so would not be fair to his fellow Scouts who are counting on him.

Are we not volunteering to teach Scouts leadership? A leader needs to lead. How can a boy show leadership in his position of responsibility if he never shows up to meetings?

There are other Scouts who do actively participate and want to do their positions of responsiblity well. These are the Scouts who are showing leadership.

Abel(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

Webelos Badge, Requirement 2:

"Be an active member of your Webelos den for 3 months (Active means having good attendance, paying den dues, working on den projects)."

But being active for the Eagle badge means to be simply registered with your dues paid.

Being active in the Webelos program seems to have a different meaning than it does for the Boy Scout program. The word active becomes watered down in the Boy Scout program and no longer carries the typical webster's definition nor the definition of the Webelos program.

So when boys become older and have to decide between football practice (which the school and coach "require" a player to be an active participant in all the practices to remain on the team), an older Scout has to make a decision - to be active in Scouting by participating with the troop and being active for 6 months as a junior leader or the Scout can choose to not show up to meetings in order to fulfill the mandatory requirements set forth by the football team.

So what is an Eagle board to do? One of their jobs is to make sure that the Scout did what was required of him to earn the badge. And being active is one of the first requirements of the Eagle badge making it pretty important (at least in my opinion). And if the board finds the Scout was not actively participating in the troop, and deny the Scout his Eagle, the Scout can exercise his appeals and in every case I have witnessed, the Scout will get his Eagle approved by national. And national will not provide the reasons on how they reached their decision.

During the past few years, the national advancement task force (aka the national advancement committee) was asked to define active and they finally produced a definition which many disagree with.

But there is another active requirement that a Scout must meet to earn Eagle - the position of leadership. If a Scout is acting in the capacity of let's say the Senior Patrol Leader, but he never shows up to meetings and activities to perform his leadership duties, the troop can relieve the Scout from his leadership position and give it to another Scout who does actively participate with the troop. Then the "inactive" Scout will not be eligible for Eagle as he was relieved of his leadership position. And should that Scout turn 18 without being a junior leader for 6 months as a Life Scout, the Scout cannot make Eagle. And it was the Scout's choice to make.

Regardless of the new definition of active, the troop still has the option of relieving the Scout of his position of leadership if the Scout fails to perform his duties as a junior leader for 6 months while a Life Scout.

It truly is up to the Scout to decide which priority is more important to him - whether he decides to perform his duties as a junior leader for 6 months, or chooses to practice football instead of participating with the troop. He really can't do both.

That is how my council resolved the issue of active. And if the Scoutmaster chose not to relieve the Scout of his leadership position, the Scout will be considered active and pass his BOR.

Abel

BP, thank you for your candid eye opening comments. I will tell you this - as a long time volunteer from a long time Scouting family, things were very different back when I was a Scout in the 70's. Vounteers were still appreciated and had a real say in this volunteer organization. As a youth, I can remember noticing changes; a shift if you will from the volunteer to the professional that started in the late 70's.(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)