Ojoman

"The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.' Having said that, we then need to ask ourselves why do kids want to join and why do parents sign them up? The short answer is that kids want to have fun with friends... parents want their kids in a safe, wholesome environment that will support their family values. The quality of the program experience varies widely from one unit to the next. In a perfect world every pack and troop would offer an outstanding program that met the needs of all concerned. We don't live in or operate in that world. This is why a quality district staff including commissioners, trainers and program support volunteers is critical along with solid district/council staff support. Sadly, too many of those elements are missing these days. 

SCOUTREACH is generally an expensive program to run. Often a professional or a 'program aide' is charged with most or all of the steps of organizing and running a unit or units. With the registration fees now as high as they are along with other increased costs it is more and more unlikely that low income kids in inner city neighborhoods will have the opportunity to participate in Scouts. God bless those churches and other chartered partners in those areas that care enough to make the program accessible and affordable. Scouting can help to counter early dropouts, gangs, drugs, adolescent pregnancy's and anti social behaviors in general. We need it more now than ever. 

At our recent district committee meeting we were told we were ahead of last year in membership. Not a difficult thing considering the losses of the past two years. However, for the first time in recent memory we have fewer Cubs than Scouts and that should be a huge red flag. Cubs is a 6 year program (5 1/2) actually but Scouts has generally been targeted at 3 grade levels. Without retention in Cubs, Scouts will continue to decline. As families join this fall, packs must offer programs designed to meet the needs of kids and families. Most packs run a fairly blended program which means that the cubs tend to see a lot of repetition year after year with pack events and activities. 4th n 5th graders often are doing many of the things that younger kids do. This is wrong. The program needs to grow in every area, not just in the advancement area. It's not bad to plan activities for gr k&1, then gr 2&3 and then Webelos. Check the age appropriate information and guide to safe scouting and plan accordingly. Also, put together a strong 12 month program. Kids have the most free time in the summer and the best weather for outdoor activities, hikes, bike trips, boating and swimming along with litter and neighborhood cleanups and good turns can turn a boring summer into a fun and exciting growth experience. A positive 12 month program encourages retention. In fact, a really healthy pack will gain members at every level and end up with more Cubs in the higher grade levels due to word of mouth. When kids talk to friends about their experiences, friends and families want to join to have the same experiences. Remember KISMIF!

The BSA is messed up and not just because the LDS church pulled out and some Law Firms decided to specialize on suing the BSA... Membership losses have been going on for a long time. The controversy over the LGBTQ cost the BSA chartered partners, membership and millions and millions of $$$$. 

Sadly, all the increased expenses to join and for handbooks and uniforms on top of the other problems will only exacerbate the problem. Cubbing should be less expensive than Scouts BSA in part because it is a conduit for membership. We need to attract more families. Each family represents significant potential income to the local council as well as to national. Product sales, camp fees, and friends of scouting account for a significant portion of each councils budget and making cubs more expensive creates an unnecessary hurdle to membership. 

Both national and local councils need to get off their collective butts and raise the operating funds needed instead of hiking registration fees. For Scouting's first 100 years local councils for the most part did not pass along operating expenses as part of the annual registration costs. There is still a lot of $$$ out there and it is the job of the professionals and the executive boards and district leadership to go get it. 

Syracuse used to serve the low income neighborhoods but that program (Scoutreach) does not even exist today. Our council has a 0% density in the city schools. That is totally unacceptable to me. The failure of councils to maintain staff, districts and services is also a major component of the failure of the leadership. There are some councils that have sound, competent leadership but too few and probably too little, too late. Pre covid during the working of the agreement on the bankruptcy the BSA projected a 3% growth in traditional membership for the foreseeable future. That was prior to the devastating membership losses due to the pandemic. In the past half a century the BSA has not seen membership growth and I doubt that they will change that trend on their present course. (I won't count replacement of the covid losses as growth until we exceed the 2019 membership numbers which I doubt we will ever see. 

If you don't agree, please tell me why... I'd love to see hope for this great program. 

$23 for a cub scout hat???? go to the dollar store and buy a hat and glue a badge of rank to it... $13 for a neckerchief, make your own silk screen and make your own, $8 for a slide? There are so many ways to make an interesting slide for next to nothing... $41 to change over every year times 5 years is over $200 plus tax... That is B*llsh**t... You can do the same thing for $5 or $6 the first year, less than the tax you would pay over 5 years and use the stuff for all 5 years. Some stuff you have to buy... Annual hats, slides and neckerchiefs are easy to replace with inexpensive personalized uniform parts. Some packs simply pass the slides and neckerchiefs along in a pack graduation program and use the same stuff each year. Hats are pretty much optional anyway. 

OK, I'm old but in my day, Cubs was gr 3,4 and 5. Cost $1.00 per year. New handbook each year at less than $1.00. Adjusted for inflation would = $10.00. Low and lower middle income families will have a tough time especially if they have multiple kids and/or a parent wants/needs to be a leader. Having a parent sew together the red vest to display badges and wear a neckerchief as a pack uniform could make things a bit easier. Starting a uniform bank/exchange helps too. It's a great program... we need to find ways to get it to more kids/families. 

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

According to Marty Sepulveda, Scout Executive/CEO for the BSA South Texas Council, the BSA especially in Jim Wells County (population 38K) was greatly affected (by covid the last two years) so much that there are no cub scouts in the county.

“We cover 17 counties including Jim Wells (and Duval Counties), (but) there’s no scouting in Alice again,” Sepulveda said. “We need to (re-establish) in Alice again.” (Alice, TX population 18K)

https://www.alicetx.com/2022/07/15/bsa-affected-by-pandemic-look-forward-to-brighter-future/

Here in Syracuse NY we have lost 90%+ of our traditional membership since 2000. Covid simply exacerbated the problem. A failure of the council leadership to generate enough funds to maintain the professional staff and other services resulted in mergers and staff cuts which resulted in less support and service to volunteers and a decline in the number of volunteers, units and members. The program nationally started to lose membership in the mid 70's and hasn't seen growth since then except when they lowered the age or added a new program and when you adjust for that there has not been a single year since then that our traditional  programs have actually grown. Syracuse is an extreme example of what has been happening across the nation. Probably the best program for instilling leadership, character and citizenship in kids is dying. 

BUILD BACK BETTER While that hasn't worked for Biden or the country it could be a motto for the BSA in growing membership. The first step to fixing any problem is to admit that there is a problem, identify the causes of the problem and go to work on those problems, (underlying issues) My first boss and mentor in professional scouting was Harry Mangle. Also my best boss and mentor. Harry would be shocked and saddened by where the BSA is today. We (the BSA) have lost our connections with our schools (teachers and administrators), lost our relationship with our chartered partners, councils/districts have lost their connections with leaders/volunteers and instead of raising the funds to maintain services we have merged councils and districts, cut unit serving positions and sold off properties. In the 1960's we served as much as 20% or more of the available youth in many parts of the nation. Today we serve less than 2%. Instead of cultivating the public to support local scouting councils are tacking on 'service' and 'insurance' fees to the national fee. If we were serving just 10% of the available youth national could get along quite well on a $12 registration fee. 

I tend to agree with many here that the membership and program will continue to decline because the national office and local councils are unwilling or unable to address the real reasons for membership decline. 

Now and then, here or there, we find a pack, troop or crew that is having an outstanding success but we fail to learn from them. We have failed to KEEP IT SIMPLE, MAKE IT FUN. and the result is where we are now. 

We need to be the best show in town! We were once and we could be again but we don't have the leadership or the will anymore. 

KISMIF: Keep it simple, make it fun... Check the national videos for ideas or just use those. Show or talk about kids having fun, making friends, earning badges and going on field trips plus camping... Field sports interest most cub age kids, archery and bb ranges are exciting. 

At the moment the school district that I live in has 9 elementary schools with enrollments of between 400 and 500 each. We have perhaps 1 pack left while there are enough students for each school to easily support a pack. This is a disaster. There are 10 school districts within our district borders and somewhere between 80 and 100 schools including private and parochial. We have a little over 40 total units in the district and the city schools have a 0% density because the 'Scoutreach' program fell apart years ago. Frankly, I doubt that the council will ever fully recover from a combination of mismanagement over the past 25 years at all levels from the council to the region/area/territory to national and the adverse environments including the attacks and revisions on and of our leadership/membership standards and the negative ads over the past couple of years that culminated in the national bankruptcy. I hope I am wrong. 

3 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Our school administrators report to the school board.  The school board translates the community beliefs into standards for the school to meet.  Taxpayers in my community would likely support keeping BSA out if there was a political argument.  The argument would be the DRP.

In terms of schooling, we have the highest test scores in the state and typically have National Merit finalists and kids going to most Ivy League schools.  My son is on track to take BC calc his junior year and has been offered much more rigor in schooling and academics than I was every provided back in the 80s/90s. That said, I have issues with our school's lack of commitment to vocational ed, sole focus on test scores, excessive rules based on "safety"  and lack of partnership with great organizations (like BSA).  However, it is the school system that the community wants (pump out great test scores, get ranked in various magazines and see the resulting property values skyrocket).

My point wasn't that there are options to change my school (unless BSA drops DRP).  My point is that there are schools open to including BSA and councils should encourage units to interact with those schools.

I went to one of those schools that pumped out college bound students, so did my sons. My oldest decided to go to the BOCE's (vo-tech) and his guidance counselor was so pleased. He said he saw so many kids apply and go off to colleges when it wasn't right for them. The expense and time along with many 'washing out' of college. I read where about 80% of graduates end up in jobs other than their major. My son is now a supervisor and makes good money. Both boys benefited from Scouts... it's a shame when schools deny their students enrichment opportunities through partnerships with groups like Scouting, 4-H, jr. civil air and others. 

School administrators and teachers are paid with tax dollars. They are public servants and while it is important to avoid disrupting teaching time, announcements or a flyer distribution at the end of the day once or twice a year doesn't seem to me to be a huge disruption. On the equal access act there are only a few (4 or 5) groups that might ever request access. This is not a huge problem. As a taxpayer that is dinged thousands each year to support local schools, I'd surely make my voice heard and I'd encourage other parents and taxpayers to do the same. Meanwhile CRT and other 'stupid' social engineering teachings are being brought into the schools. My grandson is doing common core and when his dad showed him a better way to do math he said, 'why don't they teach it this way in school, this is so easy'. There is an agenda going on that isn't helping prepare our kids for the future. Too many sheep willing to just shut up and follow and allow administrators to act like the schools are their personal domains.  

6 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

As I stated, this council does not want units contacting anyone the school system and it has been like this since before I got here. As for outside groups, I will repeat, NO OUTSIDE GROUPS are allowed. This law was brought up once or twice when we had a DE, and this is what he was told. And from what I get from the Sxcouts, it is enforced.

Trust me we had relationships prior to the current superintendent. Now everything needs to be focused on "teaching time."

Sad that your council effectively shuts units out from building school relationships especially since National promotes the adopt a school program and encourages as much interaction between school districts, individual schools, administrators, school boards and pto/ptas. Sounds wrong but if that is the way it is... https://www.scouting.org/adopt-a-school/

5 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I agree completely. But when you are not allowed in the schools to recruit, eventually your pack ages out or moves to a thriving one when they get too few to recharter.

Depends upon the council as I have found out. Some councils, for whatever reason, do NOT want units doing their own recruiting and round ups. Instead they set up everything, and tell us when they want us to be at the round up. And in other councils each unit has assigned schools, usually to get Scouts int eh same neighborhood to be together, because of bussing, multiple packs recruit form the same school. It is crazy.

If the school system allows NO ONE to come in, then Scouts can't recruit either. Yep, that is system policy as outside groups  take away form "teaching time."

You have a school board, PTO/PTA and direct access to administration. I have never had a school refuse to talk with me and once they understand the benefits to the kids (we are both in the business of preparing kids for the future and to be good citizens) we were always able to work out a mutually agreeable solution. If even one grade brings in a fireman, EMT or police officer to speak to kids, guess what, that represents an outside group. Many schools bring in people from humane or SPCA groups. It's all about relationships and too often we have let those languish.  

5 hours ago, Tron said:

I believe the law being spoken of is the Equal Access Act of 1984. 

Correct but often referenced as the scout access act. 

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I have mixed emotions on this one.

One one hand I fully understand the rationale. It is a lot of work to support a struggling unit.

On the other hand, i am in a struggling troop. Our pack folded about 10 years ago when we stopped having a DE that would get us into the school system to do round ups. The troop has dwindled, and was on the verge of folding. Work of mouth has been our best recruiting over the years. Almost have the troop have transferred from another, larger troop, that on paper is "more successful" but is actually not doing much. One large troop locally had a strong pack preCOVID, and folks automatically went tho them because they didn't know better. On paper that troop is strong, but they don't camp much, their SM appoints PORs, and they focus only on advancement. had one of their Eagles who NEVER went to summer camp, earning all of his MBs at the MB weekends and one day MBUs. That unit did a lot of virtual stuff during COVID, i.e. MB classes. While we did some virtual meetings, as soon as we were able to, we were meeting outside  and doing day trips, mostly bike rides. We even put on our own summer camp within COVID restrictions.

Tell me which troop is better?

Several important issues here... First, packs and troops need to be in a symbiotic relationship where they support each other. The best example of that was a pk/tr in the west end of Pittsburgh where the Troop hosted the packs B&G, gave them den chiefs and assisted with other aspects including a tr/ webelos event. The pack hosted the troops annual banquet and court of honor and also attended Eagle presentations. A troop that supports its pack should never 'lose' its pack. As for school recruiting and relationships, that should be the responsibility of the unit leaders and parents. They are the ones with kids in that school system and need to maintain a positive relationship. BTW it is a federal regulation that school district must give scouting the same access to students that they give to any other outside group. Every school district has at some point outside groups that come in to interact with students from speakers to book mobiles and so forth. Check out the BSA access law. The adopt a school program encourages packs and troops to be partners with their schools. PTAs would love to have a Pack or Troop committee adopt a fun program for the students, everything from movie night to dances to a picnic on the school grounds. A troop needs to provide the type of program that meets the needs of its members and families. A troop with a lot of fun learning opportunities for advancement and leadership is certainly superior to a unit that doesn't provide that. Good luck and I would suggest that your troop leadership (including youth leaders) see if you can rebuild your lost pack. 

21 minutes ago, Tron said:

A lot of good comments so far. It is tough to add; however, I think the top issue is that most Scouters have no idea how the program is supposed to run. I think the next highest issue is that Packs don't have a Scouter Reserve; parents move up and out, and forget that the Pack they are leaving behind is supporting the Troop that they just moved to, and if that Pack dies, little Johnny won't have lower ranked Scouts to lead when he gets elected to SPL.

`When we had in person training sessions and Pow Wow training sessions I believe more volunteers understood how to put out a quality program for the kids. Most units lack a knowledgeable commissioner that can assist them. When a Pack is well led the kids/families stay. To be a gold standard unit a pack can drop 25% or more of their membership... 25 x 6 years and you get the picture. nothing left by AOL year. We need to restore quality at all levels of Cubbing and see that the program experiences beyond just the rank requirements grow with the cubs. 

The BSA is in bad shape. The first step in fixing a problem is to identify the problem(s).A brief summary of how we got to where we are: nearly 50 years of traditional membership losses, being cast as a bigoted/prejudiced white, middle class organization because of certain 'standards' that no longer formally exist, being cast in recent years as a dangerous place to enroll your kids thanks to the massive lawsuits without regard for the outstanding youth protection standard of the BSA, mergers and consolidations resulting in reductions in service, huge reductions in the number of unit serving professional and a massive reduction in volunteers at all levels, a failure of the program, especially at the Cubbing level, to retain membership, a failure of councils to raise adequate funds and the recent bankruptcy along with the adverse impact of the pandemic on all levels. 

Over most of the past half century the BSA's answers were to lower the age to enter the program , first to grade 2 with tigers, then to lower it to grade 1 and make Webelos a 2 year program and finally to add grade k with Lions thus turning a 3 year program into a 5 1/2 year program. A long time to keep a family interested. the second 'solution' was to organize more units and do more recruiting. This resulted in more emphasis put on new units than supporting existing units and in many (most) cases councils ended up dropping as many or more units than they created and membership continued to decline. The third way was to create outreach programs to low income and minority youth. This was probably the best thing that was done but it was expensive and difficult to sustain. My own council, 20 years ago had a vibrant 'Scoutreach' program withan inner city day camp and a provisional Scout long term camp program. As funding dried up that program became a casualty. 

What can be done: I expect a lot of folks have strong, positive suggestions. With the number of dropped units, we need to revisit those chartered partners and see if we can bring them back. With existing units we need to look at their programs and help them deliver a program that meets the kids and parents needs and expectations. This will result in higher retention. Higher retention, even if nothing changes in recruiting will result in growth. Recruiting involves strengthening our relationship with schools. We need access to youths and schools are the best access point. Social media can help but that is not the answer. If programs are meeting needs and expectations word of mouth will generate new members. Finally, we need to see program support and delivery for a full 12 months, Scouting is not seasonal. 

Councils must raise more funds and employ competent staff that deliver the best direct support to districts/units possible. District committees and commissioner staffing must grow to be effective. I look forward to more suggestions, observations and feedback... 

The leader/advisor would, of course, need to view the video. The posting would be, in part, promoting the activity and we would hope, Scouting in the process. It is 'optional' so those youths that don't have a social media account can just do the report or post it to a parents social media account such as YouTube. Either way, we want the kids to 'think' about their experience and the historical importance of the Canal. As an adult, I must admit that even having lived in CNY for 15 years I had not given much thought to the canal and its history is quite remarkable. I hope that this award helps many others beyond just the kids to gain a greater appreciation for the canal and what an achievement it really was. 

Erie Canal Historic Trail Medal, Patch and Hiking Medallion

These are the updated requirements as of now... always subject to change/improvement. Awards/patches/medallions can be ordered via the Longhouse Council, attn: Hillcourt Museum

 Purpose of this award is to raise awareness of our local history and the role that the Erie Canal played, not only in New York economy but in the Nation’s History.

 Planning your adventure: The New York State Canal System offers some highly helpful guides to assist your unit or group in planning your adventure at canals.ny.gov. A free Canalway Water Trail Guidebook and Map Set can be ordered or downloaded at eriecanalway.org/watertrail.

 Camping along the Erie Canal System: Information is available at https://www.canals.ny.gov/trails/camping.html

 Requirements: for the Erie Canal Trail Medal: The patch and hiking medallion are available as souvenir purchases.

 1: With your Troop or Patrol, plan to traverse at least 15 miles of the Erie Canal either by hiking, by bike, by boat, canoe or Kayak or a combination of each mode of transport. Keep a record of historic markers and locks that you pass. 15 miles to hike was chosen as it aligns with the Erie Canal Song and also with the Erie Canalway Challenge: Chec it out at: https://eriecanalway.org/explore/challenge.

 2: Visit or pass through at least one lock. Learn about the present day traffic on the canal. Satisfy your leader that you understand how a lock works and why they were important.

 3: Visit/tour the Erie Canal Museum in Syracuse or one or more of the many historic canal sites in the state.

 4: Visit the Salt Museum in Syracuse either in person or virtually (https://video.wcny.org/video/insight-insight-012717/) at Onondaga Lake Park and learn how the Canal was important to the salt industry in Syracuse.

 5: Discuss with your adult leader or partner the transformative effects of the Erie Canal on the past, present, and future of our country. If you are part of a group working on this award this may be a group discussion.

 6: Write a report of no less than 200 words to explain what you learned about the canal and its historical importance as well as present day uses. Submit it to your unit leader for review. Optional requirement, post a video to YouTube or other social media of 2 minutes or more about your experience, what you learned and sharing shots of what you saw and did while earning the award.

 7: It will be up to your unit leader to decide if you have met all of the requirements for this award.

 The Erie Canal Trails Medal will be awarded for completion of the above requirements and the completion of at least a 15 mile distance along the canal.  There is no time limit or minimum # of hikes to reach 15 miles.

 Applicants for these awards must be at least 10 years of age or in the 5^th grade and not older than 18.

 Hikes along the canal trail can be applied to the hiking merit badge and towards the completion of either the Historic Trails or 50 Miler Awards.

 This Trail award is available to groups outside of the BSA and who must meet all of the same criteria assigned to BSA members and are subject to the approval of the William Hillcourt Museum Committee.

 This program is an extension of the William Hillcourt Museum and the Longhouse Council BSA as a part of Central New York history within the service area of the Longhouse Council, BSA. Hiking, boating or cycling any part of the Canal Trail in or outside of the Council Service area will qualify for earning the award.

 A Hiking Staff Medallion will be available for purchase to both youth and adult members and the public. There are no requirements to purchase the Historic Trails Hiking Medallion or patch, only for the medal.

 Significance of the medal: Mule & Driver Statue - Erie Canal Museum - Syracuse, NY

This bronze, life-size sculpture was created by artist Tom Tischler (1990) and commissioned by the Erie Canal Museum. It stands on Erie Blvd at the site of the original towpath across from the 1850 Weighlock building. The statue is a memorial to the young boys (mule drivers) and mules who made travel on the Erie Canal possible. Mules and hoggees worked on the canal pulling canal boats along the waterway in six hour shifts around the clock, seven days a week. The Erie Canal Museum is located at 318 Erie Blvd East in Syracuse, NY. Mr. Tischler is an Eagle Scout.

This sounds really strange... If accurate I feel for the young person with multiple neurological disabilities but if the 'troop' is not part of the BSA then this is not a BSA issue... ("the troop having seceded from the national organization, due to the troop being their own private troop"). No outside group can use our name and insignia without affiliation. 

Works for me

3 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

OK, if you are involved with this, recommend:

1.  address discrepancy between rquirement #1 (15 miles), and the statement at the end requiring only 10 miles.

2. be consistent in naming convention...use the name "Erie Canal Trail Medal" (ECTM) throughout.  Avoid "Historic Trail Medal" references, as this could be confused with the BSA Historic Trails Award https://www.scouting.org/awards/awards-central/historic-trails/ (which the ECTM could be used to obtain)

Best wishes

Good points... getting the kinks ironed out prior to the kickoff... Thanks

4 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Is the "Historic Trails Medal" something different than the "Erie Canal Trail Medal"??

Same thing... 

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Unless policy has changed since I went to  camp school, or a council has figured out a way to get around the rules, National has prohibited packs from running their own shooting sports events. Cub Scout shooting sports are restricted to district/council events.

Our council policy involves the use of council range and all shooting sports trained volunteers are part of the council shooting sports committee and there is a modest charge to use the council equipment to help maintain it. Both archery and bb. That way a unit shoot can be done on council property with trained staff and strict controls. Units without trained volunteers are at the mercy of the shooting sports committee if they want to have folks open the range and they are not always available. 

Off council shooting sports programs are often done at day camps and district events and I see little difference between a unit doing a shoot with qualified staff on an approved range (and possibly renting or borrowing council equipment). A mile from my home the community maintains a free public archery range with posted rules. I often see families using the facilities and I have taken my grandson there to shoot. When done properly it is a fun and safe activity. Perhaps even safer than the launching of rockets and some of the other activities that have been allowed in the past. Just saying... 

These are the types of activities that attract and retain membership and it does need to be well managed. 

A few years back we were running BB range training for our Daycamp staffers. Two police officers were taking the training. They said they got some good natured ribbing when the other officers heard they were going to be 'certified' in BB's. Then, when we went to the range and they got the rifles one said to the other, "hey, these have better sights than our guns." 

At any rate, if the council has a policy that a unit with properly trained volunteers and a safe range can do a unit shoot, go for it... Our council has a policy where the camp bb and archery range and equipment can be used. Remember, the equipment must meet the BSA standards too!