Ojoman

I'm done with this topic... beating a dead horse... I have no agenda, hidden or otherwise... from my experience the BSA was far ahead of other youth programs in taking steps to protect kids for all types of abuse. (I could be in error but that's my experience). Hindsight is so wonderful... let's blame people that made good faith efforts dealing with the laws and circumstances. I expect that right this moment there are a few people in the program that are a danger to kids but there is no way, until they act and are reported, to know who they are so when something happens let's blame the BSA for not being psychic. It is obvious that some folks are still in so much pain (and I feel for them) that they need to vent against the 'system'. I've had 'issues' in my own life that were quite painful but I did move on. Folks can quote me, make negative comments about me and my posts but for my money the BSA is still tops for helping kids grow to be solid citizens. Character, citizenship and fitness should never go out of style and giving kids the Oath and Law as standards to shoot for will always be a positive. Don't look for any more posts from me. I'm just glad the bankruptcy is settled and the BSA can start to rebuild and recover.  

3 hours ago, scoutldr said:

Well, I was a District Training Chair in the 90s and taught that YP course with the VHS tapes.  We were directed to tell people to NEVER report suspected abuse to the authorities.  ONLY report directly to the SE, who "knew what to do and how to report it."...and NEVER discuss it with anyone else...when you call the Council Office, tell whomever answered the phone to "put me through to the SE for a YP matter" and he would respond immediately.  That never sat right with me, being the spouse of a school nurse who was a "mandatory reporter" and knew the 

 A s i recall though the police were in the loop. The SE was supposed to immediately suspend the volunteer  and had to be notified. 

10 hours ago, clbkbx said:

It can’t be both ways: it’s always going to happen and we’ll only do what we need to do to in order to be a viable business. 

Having been 'on the inside'in the 70's, 80's, 90's and more I can tell you that the BSA was doing youth protection training way back. We had 'experts' on VHS tapes telling volunteers and parents the signs, we had 2 deep leadership rules, and we had handouts and even a quiz on the subject for years before any other agency even thought about this type of training. As time passed more steps were added. With the advent of digital cameras and phones that could record that was added to the mix. Sorry to break your balloon but I was a BSA employee and I know how active the BSA was over 4 decades ago in addressing this problem. Predators don't arrive with a scarlet letter on their shirt. They look just like everyone else and most of them don't have a record. The BSA was well ahead of the curve. People are imperfect and can sometimes be overly trusting and it sounds like your case was one such case (of a significant number). In an agency dealing with many millions of kids and millions of adults over the years things happen. Doesn't make it right or dismiss it. You can't make wrongs right but for the councils I worked in and the professionals I worked with, I can say that your words are in error. Regardless of the motive it is well to remember that the BSA was a part of the awakening of all youth agencies to the issue of abuse. You may say too little, too late and as a victim I understand your feelings. The bastard that abused you, I hope he got a long, long sentence. I hope that all the volunteers that I helped train did protect the youth in their charge and that my efforts to hold up the BSA youth protection standards protected kids. The BSA has well over 40 decades of getting the word out. Not once did I ever hear anyone say, ignore it, sweep it under the rug... we need to protect our image. Just had to respond to your point of view with my actual experiences. 

3 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

I have a good relationship with my DE. If I text him, he will respond within an hour without fail. Even though he works evenings and weekends for what I'm sure amounts to less than $15/hour, he always makes volunteers feel acknowledged and appreciated. If we see him at a district or council event, he greets my son and I by name.

Be sure if you speak to his superior or council exec to let them know how much he is appreciated. Volunteer feedback is valuable... Thanks for the post!

With new members both youth and adult having to pay the full year up front and with most units now running a January to December charter it seems ideal and logical to be recruiting in January. Pay for the year and get into the program with lots of time to set aside funds for summer camps and other programs. Packs can get their new members in for the Blue n Gold anniversary events and Troops can recruit in grade 5 but have to hold off registering for two months which gives families time to set aside the funds. In the meantime they can either register with the pack and transfer or 'visit' the troop and get a feel for what they will be joining. I think January recruiting is a great idea and a youth might even complete AOL if you count January and June as full months and then crossover. (I don't think too many would object to that). 

2 hours ago, skeptic said:

We can only work towards that ideal of safety and security, but we can neve guarantee it.  

Exactly!

3 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

I differ with you on this point. I think it was more intended to keep the BSA's own reputation safe. Why else would they have been secret files that BSA wouldn't share with other organizations and even deny the existence of? In front of a Congressional committee a BSA official said they had no CSA issues..

Since you asked why else... It is assumed that the BSA shirked its duty to protect kids because not every case was criminally prosecuted and the the sole reason was to protect the BSA image. While I don't have the proof I would bet that there were many thousands of abusers who were prosecuted and also that a fair number of the 82k cases were known to authorities but for various reasons charges did not go forward for the same reason that many rape cases don't go forward. A lack of evidence, reluctance of families to testify, the amount of time that passes before an accusation is made, reluctance to count on a child's testimony, the disappearance of the perpetrator and so on. However, I will go on record as believing that in many cases local or national officials did not want the bad press. The one case I was involved with a volunteer got 3 teens (Jr/Sr HS, age 17) after a Red Cross class he ran. They were to 'join' him for a 'party' and after some drinking (and maybe drugs) he got them all engaged in sex. One of the teens was a scout. The newspaper, when the story broke headlined 'SCOUT LEADER ARRESTED FOR MOLESTATION'. The Red Cross director told our exec, 'I'm glad the Boy Scouts sell more newspapers than the Red Cross. I hope my response doesn't come across as insensitive. I seem to have already ruffled too many feathers. It is a sensitive issue. 

3 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

And who wants to pay for past abuse claims?

My basic understanding of the new national fees is that part of that is included in the settlement structure. FOS type donations should be available to councils for any and all council needs. (Please correct me if you know differently) so donors today shouldn't have to worry about nes council endowment funds or properties going to settle abuse claims. Having said that... 20 years ago my council sold off their service center and one in a council we merged with and I know ours was from a quarter of a million $$$ gift just a few years earlier and they also sold off a camp that came in a merger. Most of the funds were used to pay off accumulated debt by a scout exec that couldn't raise funds. Personally, I blame the board for putting up with that particular SE for as long as they did. The staff and many volunteers knew what was going on. Mismanagement at all levels does play a significant role as to where the BSA finds itself today. 

5 hours ago, yknot said:

Better management could have resulted in better cost efficiencies,

I do agree that there are a lot of things that could be done to better manage expenses but my council is raising fewer dollars now than they did 25 years ago and that means that they are really only raising about 30% of what the actual value of those old dollars could purchase. This council has not kept pace with inflation, it has cut staff and services which has resulted in higher membership and unit losses than the national average. It reflects bad management all around. We do have the William Hillcourt Museum which is a bright spot in an otherwise dark landscape but that is totally run by volunteers and has paid its own way for the past quarter century. I have said for years that the council should build an income event around it. Beyond that the council needs to rethink all of their budgetary needs and prioritize rebuilding the unit serving aspect of the operation. 

3 hours ago, yknot said:

That's why I'm certain fees will have to rise -- I can't recall where the settlement plan is but I think we were supposed to see a modest gain of around 1.2 million by now. There was a modest national annual fee increase attached to that plan so if the numbers are lower, the projected increase will likely be higher unless another revenue stream has developed. 

What bothers me more than National raising their fees are all the councils that are tacking on 'service and insurance' fees. First it was the national charter fee, then a council insurance fee, (the insurance fee I understand because years ago units had to carry their own accident and illness coverage until councils took it over) and then they started with the services fee. I never worked in a council that charged a 'services' fee. We (the professional staff) raised funds through the product sale, the family and community friends of scouting campaign and major gifts or events. In my later years I generally had all my finance goals met by June so I could focus on the summer camping duties. I was generally the only one that consistently did that. To this day I feel that the board and professional staff supported by district volunteers should raise those funds and the units only pay the national fees. My council basically doubles the fee with their surcharges. Not a good thing. A neighboring council only charges a small insurance fee. I could live with that. 

1 hour ago, yknot said:

It's pretty certain that national fees are going to continue to increase. 

Fee increases were built into the settlement along with a projected increase in membership. I suspect that if membership does not grow as projected that the fee increases may be even more. It appears that our council will end the year down in membership. In two months we should have a new Scout Exec and we'll see if that makes a difference. 

2 hours ago, MYCVAStory said:

 

Tell the 10,000 Survivor claimants since then that the abuse cases going back so long ago should make them feel better?  If anything, the fact that the BSA had such a long history of abuse AND knew enough to fix it should sting even more for those who were abused more recently.  As far as lawsuits, they remain against the abuser and every day I want mine to remember that the day is approaching when mine will commence.  What doesn't remain, are the lawsuits against any enablers within the BSA.  Time will tell whether that's a topic the DOJ will be looking into. 

The sad fact remains that there is no foolproof way to end abuse towards children. I wish there was. From what I have read and heard abuse against adolescents has increased, especially with the advent of social media. I have contributed to the training of many, many volunteers in the area of youth protection. As a parent and grandparent nothing is more important than to do all we can to see that predators of any kind are held in check. Any program that served youths is a target for those attracted to them. There is really no way to identify predators until a victim comes forward. That is the sad and tragic reality. No one should ever be an enabler for child abusers, not even just by ignoring or looking the other way. Every person should be a mandatory reporter. Another real problem is that most child welfare agencies are understaffed and abuse reports don't always get the attention that they should. Living in an imperfect world with imperfect systems and people is not an excuse but it is the reality. I hope you get your day in court and that justice prevails. 

11 hours ago, PaleRider said:

You really need to learn to be respectful to every single person's life that the BSA knowingly allowed to be ruined. Good day

I would hope that  i never make a disrespectful statement regarding any victim. The damage and scars that remain will impact you and others for life, no question. Sadly, there was and still is a learning curve on how to prevent and how to treat incidents of abuse. 90% of the cases were 30 or more years old. Some extended back half a century. The BSA's ineligible volunteer files was the first step to try to keep kids safe. Back in the 60's and 70's there wasn't a lot of studies available and no national data bases for background checks. Ideally, when incidents happened they would have been reported and acted upon and I do know of a couple that were acted upon and I do not personally know of any that were swept under the rug (but the lawsuit says there were many). My issue is that the lawsuit did not go after the predators, their assets and finances. The entire blame was foisted on the BSA. Yes, I and my kids had a positive experience with the program. That does not mean we have zero empathy for victims. I have been friends for decades with one of my Scouts that was victimized by a family member and others outside of Scouting. Scouting was a real positive in his life and helped get him past that trauma. I wish you all the best in pulling you life together... Take care and God Bless...

4 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

Do you have specifics for this? I'd really like to know what you think.

Specifically, regarding:

"departure from BSA practices"

and

"controlling of mired in out of date practices."

So vague I cannot determine what you are referring to.

Thanks.

Some troops get known as 'merit badge or eagle mills' driven by the SM or a small group of adults... Not that earning EAgle is bad but the direction and purpose of the program is overall character, citizenship and personal fitness. Some Troops shut down for the summer with the possible exception of summer camp because 'that's how we have always done it. Some troops shun district or council involvement because of a leaders attitude, some troops sit on their duff and expect a crop of AOL's each year without lifting a finger to assist the Pack. Some leaders never get 'updated' at a u of sctg and only update that training that is required to remain a volunteer. Some leaders never encourage their youth members to bring a buddy to an event to 'try scouting out'. and do little or no recruitment promotion with their troop. Some troop leaders never utilize their youth leaders in planning program and often are doing the SPL role limiting the leadership growth and potential of the youth SPL. Some troop leaders don't invite or recruit other adults/parents to become leaders because they don't want new blood or new ideas to interfere with how things have always been done. I suppose I could go on but that is a start... 

4 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

I have never looked to a DE to provide any help to our Troop.  They have nothing to offer. The Council office has nothing to offer either other than to take our money.

It pains me to read your response. As a unit serving professional for 30 years I always tried to have a good relationship with my unit people and many of them came on board both district and council committees and for events including giving up a lot of their time to support summer programs like cub and webelo resident weekend camps. Both DE's and District/council volunteers need to cultivate solid relationships with unit volunteers as that is where the bulk of district volunteers come from. Let your words be a cautionary tale to all district level professionals and volunteers that they may be aware and avoid such a poor performance and leaving a bad taste in unit level volunteers mouths. 

40 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

the District Committee and Commissioner Staff in our District (which happens to comprise the geography of the District of Columbia) is quite good. 

I get a lot of 'stuff' from National Capital Area council and I am always impressed... lots of training opps and top unit news. I find that few CO's ever attend District Committee Meetings even though they are an automatic part. Our district committee is comprised of 12-14 individuals that really do not have their own committees. We have put the membership duties on the commissioner staff which is comprised of 4 people serving 37 units that serve over 50 elementary and middle schools and that's not counting private/parochial schools. Your first paragraph summed it all up... If every district was properly staffed and did it's job well Scouting would be far more healthy than it is. God Bless all those volunteers that do try to do their district jobs well... often it can be a frustrating experience which is all the more sad. 

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

But again budgeting is not the problem it is the high initial cost.

I agree that the initial cost does hurt. Worse is when council tack on insurance and service fees. Frankly, if I was a unit leader and council wanted to do FOS I'd be sorely tempted to tell them it's one or the other... I don't like local council fees. I don't like excessive camp fees and 'training' fees. We are getting a new SE in 2 months and I intend to have a sit down with him/her and express myself on several points. The city of Syracuse is lacking for Scout Units. That's 19,000 youths with no Cub, Scout or Venture programs available to them. That is a sin. There are solutions to every problem if folks care enough to find them. 

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Cost is indeed a major factor in membership loss, especially since national no longer prorates fees to the unit recharter time.

My grandson's sports programs get paid up front... I do agree that some families may find the up front fees to be a hardship but they can put it on plastic the first time around and then budget for the next year or participate in the unit product sale. Also, a unit can give a family a month to get their paperwork together and register. Some councils have programs to assist lower income families and troops could/should have unit savings plans much like a lay away for summer camp and rechartering so families can put a bit down each meeting/week/month. That's what I did as a kid. I recall taking my weekly payment and getting it recorded each week with the ;unit treasurer/scribe. It was good practice for real life and planning for expenses by setting a little bit aside each pay. 

Where there is a will there is a way! 

However, we need to get our image back... we need Scouting to be seen for what it is, a great growth opportunity for kids along with adventure, fun, leadership, friendship and citizenship.... Scouting has been overshadowed by a lot of 'stuff' that isn't nearly as good. Scouting needs to be the competition, not shrink from the competition. 

18 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

"this is how our troop operates",

Troops are probably more apt to 'create' their own culture and depart from BSA practices. Some troop leaders (like some sports coaches) are controlling or mired in out of date practices. Sadly, in many cases no one will challenge them and their programs tend to be weak and not hold membership. Of course there is the other end where a leader does a great job with his/her junior leaders and oversees a solid, well functioning program with great retention and advancement. 

On 12/6/2023 at 8:56 AM, OaklandAndy said:

Very true. The loophole is if we don't let anyone do anything, then we can say no to everyone, including scouting. 

No one? I bet that there are programs brought in by the local police and fire departments and that the PTO has brought in some programs. Some teachers may bring in outside people to do presentations for students and outside groups may run book fairs and other events for the school. Get the PTO and School Board in your court. Sell the benefits at a time when student behavior is becoming an issue including bullying/cyber bullying and other anti social activities are growing. Our school board actually has referred to that law in their rules to reinforce open door policies for BSA. Good Luck

COST ISN'T THE MAIN FACTOR IN LOSS OF MEMBERSHIP, POOR RECRUITMENT, POOR COMMUNITY RELATIONSHIPS AND POOR RETENTION DUE TO WEAK PROGRAM ALONG WITH A LACK OF LEADERS ARE THE MAIN DRIVERS OF MEMBERSHIP DECLINES. 

My son pays for my 12 year old grandson, several hundred $ per 'soccer season' and there are several 'seasons' per year. Then there are the 'away games' which can include overnight stays and it is easy for him to drop $2,000 or more in a year. We complain about the new fees and other expenses in Scouting but the program is still cost effective when compared to many other youth activities. 

True, the 'woke' crowd that painted the BSA as bigoted in the 90's and early 2000's over our leadership standards didn't help and nor did the recent negative PR over the abuse lawsuit and bankruptcy but it is time to put that all behind us and focus on getting back to the business of bringing a quality, family values program to youth and families across the nation. 

The question isn't, can we rebound? the question is can our leadership, both professional and volunteer, apply themselves to the basics of proper marketing, training, program delivery, recruiting and retention to get the job done? So far the answer is no but we have new leadership and we are out of the woods regarding the bankruptcy so hopefully we can refocus and once more start to grow. 

2 hours ago, DuctTape said:

I am not sure they can do much more for the local units. IMO the entire BSA structure predicated on the authority of the IH of the CO is the major obstacle for any real reform.

Today, most IH and Co are less than fully functioning and that can be a problem. However, a good unit commissioner that works with them and the unit can change that. Also the annual IH visit that the DE is 'supposed' to do can bring a focus on the program to the IH. Sadly, I think most unit level volunteers think the only training they need is the on line training and BAlOO or Outdoor for troop leaders. Councils/District training committees should be offering everything from den chief training to PowWow and Univ of Scouting and pushing for volunteers to attend. Help from the membership committee and even finance in how to better run a product sale or other means of funding unit program... I'll stop here and look for more comments. 

My post on expectations of DE's seemed to draw a lot of interesting responses but program delivery and support is just as much a responsibility of the volunteers at the district level as they are of the DE. I would like to hear from volunteers at all levels as to how effective the district volunteers are and what needs to be done to make it even better. Most districts do suffer from a lack of manpower so that might be addressed too. Thanks

12 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

But I am of the opinion that an SE would be much more effective if they were a locally-connected person. 

An SE goes through his contacts pretty fast... It's the board that needs direction and ought to be opening doors to donors. I've seen new SE's move mountains, again, if they have the tools, skill and motivation... also, there is a lot more to the SE position which includes directing membership programs and overseeing a dynamic program calendar. New Blood, New Ideas, a new set of eyes on the operation. Having said that, a really solid, productive DE, SE or other staff member is worth whatever it takes to keep them. In the 80's I knew a Scout Exec that bragged he was paying a DE over $40 (at that time some SE's weren't making much more) but they guy just about walked on water. The SE felt it was a positive investment. No other council was going to try to steal him away at that cost. 

Personally, I wish there were fewer relocations for the families sake. I wish pay scales were better for the DE's and that the 3 years and move on mentality didn't exist. 

9 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Now, why, on Earth, would he do such a thing

Short version, pissed off that I was leaving... I had renewed the FOS program at FT. Dix for $5,000 and he wanted me to stay and work the same thing at McGuire AFB. This was back in the mid 70's and that was a lot of $$$$ It was payback of a sort.