Ojoman

6 minutes ago, Delphinus said:

Not enough to volunteer my time, energy, and expertise, or even that I pay for that privilege, but now the price to pay to volunteer is going up? 

For the last 30 years there have been elements that objected to various 'values' expressed by the BSA and their Chartered Partners which resulted in activists dragging the BSA into court at great expense. At the same time the BSA was slow to respond to social changes. This resulted in declines in membership and losses from certain funding sources including many United Way agencies. More recently the BSA went through a major court case that awarded over 2.4 Billion in damages of which Lawyers will get about 1 Billion. It was easier and more profitable to sue the BSA instead of going after individual abusers. These things are far from over and have forced the BSA to sharply increase fees and revamp criteria for parents and volunteers.  This is literally killing one of the best programs for instilling character and citizenship in young people. Additionally, with a shrinking professional support team local councils have found it easier to tack on their own service fees than raise operating funds, these fees did not exist until recently. While the 12 month program often is not more expensive than enrollment in  sports programs for the youths, the costs for parents to 'volunteer' along with the youth increase is burdensome to many families. Time will tell if the BSA will survive all of this. I hope it does.  

5 hours ago, DannyG said:

Ok. Then I admit it's a regional difference. 

My Cub Scout Pack is a family pack that attracts entire families. That means there's a gaggle of cub scouts, parents, and siblings around at our meetings and events. The adults don't openly want to volunteer either. You have to ask. 

35 years ago, nor really so long ago... we rebuilt a pack that had limped along with a dozen or so kids. We started with half a dozen families but we set the bar high. We built a GREAT program and had the expectation that the parents JOINED with their kids. We had family involved events, field trips and activities. We included the sisters in many things back before they could be members. Today with blended program it is easier to do. Eventually it was apparent to families that joined that parents were part of the pack. The family that plays together in Cubbing stays together in Cubbing. 

14 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

In the future I see a lot of local council mergers. There are many, mostly smaller councils struggling financially.  

IMHO There have been too many mergers of councils and districts. Over my years as a member of the BSA profession I learned that of all my goals and 'critical achievements' the easiest ones to manage were my finance goals. Frankly, there is a lot of $$$ out there but some professionals are either too incompetent or to untrained to go out and get it. Here they merged 3 councils into one in recent years and went from 11 districts down to 3. The geography is daunting and in my district we now have around 19 school districts with over 50 elementary and middle schools not counting parochial, charter and private. They put an entry level DE into this district. Ridiculous. And distances to the scout shop and council service center are unreasonable. The larger the council and districts the less direct service the district volunteers and unit volunteers receive. The less sound direction and service the more turnover and drops. I seldom hear folks say positives about 'the council' but I hear enough negatives. Very discouraging. In 2019 we showed just over 6,000 volunteers, in 2021 just barely over 1,000 (source 990). With the new fees I expect that number to drop even more. A very sad state of affairs. The question is, can we turn this around or is it too late? 

12 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

This is not a defense of the current structure but to explain the reasoning of the National volunteers who added first Tigers and later Lions.

My personal opinion on Tigers and Lions is that the BSA was in a membership decline and they needed to pump up the numbers and the registration dollars going to National. Yes, some people complained that the GSA started in kindergarten but honestly, we did not have membership growth in our core programs since the 70's when you compare apples to apples. Total growth was achieved by increasing the market by lowering the ages/grades to enter the program. Leaders now need to keep a families interest for 5 1/2 years instead of 3 or 4. A well run pack with strong, creative leadership can be successful but they are scarce. Retention is the only way to have AOL's to cross to a troop. 25 or 30 years ago it was common to see 8 or 10 cubs cross to scouts. Now it is a trickle even with the girls in the program. We need to break cubbing down into two year increments. Plan out two years of pack and den activities and program for gr k&1, two for gr 2&3 and Two for gr 4&5 that meet the needs of those specific grades so the kids feel and see the difference and you will have retention. Without retention you are just trying to fill up a bucket full of holes by recruiting to replace loss. STOP THE DROP... 

2 hours ago, JBWest said:

While I share your concerns, I suggest you are missing the point of the Scouting movement.  We used to have four TV channels, and Scouting was the only game in town for outdoor leadership.  Now there is an LL Bean or an  REI on every corner or in every smart phone, and the challenge is getting kids outside at all. 

My kids were/are the nintendo/atari generation and that was just as exciting to them as the games and internet is to todays kids. My grandson doesn't have to invite his friends over, they play on the internet. That said, he is often bored as the games are no longer so novel even though the graphics are far superior to what my kids had. Our neighborhood/school district offered all the present distractions of multiple sports programs and the local cub pack had folded (twice in 2 years). My kids were coming of cub age and I contacted the Scout office and we held a sign up at the school in January. We rechartered with 6 families and every family took a position. We got everyone trained and had a planning meeting and drafted a 12 month program complete with den meetings over the summer and pack meetings and events that would qualify us for the Summertime award. The result, 2 years later we had over 50 families in the pack and towards the 3rd year we split off a 30 member pack at another church because we were getting too big. The keys are to engage the parents along with the kids while meeting the needs and expectations of parents and kids. An active, well rounded 12 month program is key to retention. As long as kids are working towards and earning badges and getting recognition they stay. As long as they look forward to program growth as they move up (more challenge, more fun, more excitement) they stay. 

One of todays PROBLEMS is that the program is now 6 years instead of 4. That is a long time to retain a kids interest. I would suggest building the program in 3 stages, lion/tiger, wolf/bear and Webelos/Aol. A great program retains and attracts. 

And yes, I understand the challenge with 30% single parents and work pressures but we had that back then and overcame it. GOOD LUCK!

14 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

But sometimes they are ignored, told they do not know what they are talking about, yelled at, or cursed out at (yes that has happened).

I suppose that sometimes stress can cause tempers to flare but it doesn't matter if it is a professional or a volunteer doing the screaming/cursing, there is really no place in the program for that type of behavior. An out of character outburst might be excused once but if that behavior is the norm it needs to be called out and corrected. You are correct that volunteers being subjected to that will leave and understandably so. 

1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

 

BSA seems to be actively driving away leaders

We try to just run our unit, go camping, help youth (in our case boys) gain independence and confidence.  BSA keeps layering admin and other interference that takes our eye off that goal and sucks up time.

Some (and perhaps much) of what you pointed out can be found in many districts/councils. We need to remember that 90% or more of program happens in the troop or pack. Enjoyable meetings and activities where the kids grow in the program with their friends should be the primary focus of unit leaders. The district and council can supply some experiences such as camporees and long term camp or family camp but the kids and their parents join and stay when their needs and interests are being met monthly. The council needs the units and should be supporting the volunteers and always in a positive way. Too often the words ,' I'm from the council and I'm here to help you' ring like the Ron Regan joke about the government. 

3 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Volunteers are the life blood of the program.  Too often, the same volunteers are asked for more and more support over and over.  If you look who has the least free time to volunteer, it is parents.  They are busy working to earn enough money to support their family, save for retirement, pay off mortgages and college loans etc.  They are also the ones who typically coach their kids little league games and serve as unit leaders. 

Councils should focus on past scouts (18-30 year olds) and empty nest past scouters (55+) for the core of district/council leadership.  Instead, I am typically called multiple times a year to volunteer for district positions.  I simply cannot dedicate enough time.  I mentioned the idea of using NESA lists and was told that wasn't a great option.

 

Sadly, most troops and packs today have the minimum number of volunteers to keep a charter. Often the unit leader and assistants wear multiple hats at the unit level as committee members.  We end up 'burning them out' by over working them and when they leave there is no one to replace them. The best folks for district leadership are often those whose kids have graduated from the program. They too often just figure their kid is out and so they 'drop our' too. Many, if asked, would serve. My dad became a unit commissioner after I 'graduated' from the troop and went off to college. We need to salvage those volunteers. 

4 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

It absolutely can.  I look at the UK Scouts Association...

The UK has launched a massive campaign to recruit adults. I looked up my councils 990 forms on line and found that we have lost around 70+% of our registered adult leaders in the 4 years running up to 2022. It's pretty simple, no leaders, no program. I also read a copy of my councils 2022 membership plan issued in January of that year which called for each district to have a functioning membership committee. To date I don't think any of the 3 districts even have a chairman let alone a committee. The report was impressive (see attached) with a lot of good, even great information but unless implemented is worthless. I don't know how many people worked on it or had input but I hope that it gets resurrected and implemented as that would be a step in the right direction. 

2022 longhouse member plan.pdf

With a roughly 50 year history of membership declines behind us, the losses of donors and United Way/corporate support from the leadership standards issues of the 80's to early 2000's and more recently the huge negative campaign of the past several years by law firms that resulted in the bankruptcy and loss of trust on the part of many of our chartered partners not to mention the withdrawal of the LDS church and the impact that COVID had, I have to question the ability of BSA to recover. 

With the dramatically increased costs of registration, uniforms and supplies and activities, it would seem that our programs are being priced away from a substantial number of families. Add to costs is the massive loss of volunteers and the failure or inability to attract new, younger volunteers as well as parents that don't step up at the unit level. 

Today there are far fewer councils and districts and a fraction of the unit serving professionals that we enjoyed just 20 or 30 years ago. In many areas the BSA is serving less than 1% of the available youth and in low income areas entire school districts have no units within their boundaries. My council in Syracuse had 11 districts and now has 3. One merged district has around 20 school districts, over 50 elementary and middle schools plus private and parochial schools and only 37 total packs and troops. 

This begs the question, can the BSA rebuild and re-establish itself as a preeminent youth program? Frankly, while I believe it is the best, most valuable activity for youth I don't see the leadership to accomplish what needs to be done. I'd be interested in what others feel about the present situation and thoughts on the steps and direction that needs to be taken to grow the BSA programs and services.  

3 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

Just curious - how were donors targeted?

Did lawyers threaten to lump them into the lawsuit or was their support of the program publicly scrutinized? 

Back 20 +/- years ago funding agencies such as the United Way were lobbied to terminate support and many did. In Philadelphia the council lost their office that the Scouts built on city property with a promise of perpetual use when the city pulled the rug out from under them. Here in Syracuse we lost over 100k and that forced cutbacks in the LFL and Scoutreach programs. Scoutreach hurt the most. Some folks felt that our stance was political in nature and dropped us while others left after we changed our policy feeling we 'sold out'. It was a 'can't win' scenario. The BSA was caught between a rock and a hard place on the admission of girls (which I 100% support) and then the lawsuit and bankruptcy where long time donors saw camps sold and endowments reduced and other properties like Philmont, mortgaged to pay into the settlement fund. Examples and stories could go on and on... Public perception thanks to the lawyers painting the program as a haven for abusers lost some of it's luster and with smaller support services due to financial constraints membership and units (chartered partners) has suffered. 

My understanding is that the National registration fee has been increasing as part of the settlement agreement. Local councils in years past were not permitted to add to the registration fees  but as councils lost donors and income due to the National controversies with LGBTQ as they went after our donors and then the costs of the bankruptcy councils were allowed modest additions for things like accident/liability surcharges. In more recent years those restrictions have been loosened and councils that do a good job raising funds have added little or no increases to the National fee while councils that don't do so well have tacked on higher fees. Our council is one of the not so good fund raisers and every youth and adult has to pay. Cubs and Scouts pay $80 to National and $80 to local while adults who volunteer time, gas and money have to pay $60 to National and $60 local. If a council lacks the talent or opportunity to meet costs they pass it along. Camps, staff, office facility, insurances and program expenses need to be covered. Popcorn and FOS isn't getting the job done. You can look up recent 990 forms for your council if you want to get a picture of where the money goes. 

5 hours ago, seattlecyclone said:

I don't have retention statistics at hand. I get the sense it's quite high though. Our membership pyramid is a bit different than "most," I guess. We have no Lions, one Tiger den, and two dens of each other grade. First year Webelos are the most numerous age in the pack this year, with Bears and second-year Webelos right behind. Some kids join in first grade, recruit some friends to join them for second, and generally stick around through the rest of the program.

Sounds good... our pack tended to gain at the higher grades as friends of our Cubs would join so it wasn't unusual to have as many or more Webelos and AOL's than Tigers or Wolves. At one point we split off a 30+ pack at a neighboring church. The pack still grew to over 100 cubs when we had to move on. Strong program that grew with the Cubs and keeping in the habit of program over the summer were two great keys. There were others like 100% Boy's (now Scout) Life and a mini 'High Adventure' for the AOL's in the spring. 

1 hour ago, seattlecyclone said:

Our pack generally takes a break during the summer. There was nothing on last year's calendar between mid-June and late August. It doesn't seem to have any negative impact on enrollment. We have about 90 kids year after year, and often have to refer some prospective families to other packs in the area because any larger would be unmanageable. 

My question would be how well do you retain cubs? My son's pack had basically 100% retention from Tigers (pre lions) to crossover. We only dropped families that physically moved from the area. Most packs membership is pyramid shaped with a lot of k and 1's a bit fewer grade 2 & 3 and fewer still at 4 & 5. I would consider 80% retention a decent job and 90%+ excellent. Maintaining size by recruiting a number each year to replace drops is like trying to fill up a bucket full of holes. Unless the new recruits are offsetting the crossovers there may be a quality issue which would include not having a summer program. Why give up the best months of the year for outdoor program and activities? 

Monthly activities are a start but maintaining the 'habit' of regular participation is very valuable. My sons pack ran a full program 12 months of the year. Yes, some families missed a den/pack meeting/activity now and then but families don't generally go away for 12 weeks or more. As a result, we didn't drop members and in fact we gained members by being active. 

Regarding program planning, we had the key leaders put together a 12 month program and present it to all the families for approval. Because we had multiple den/pack events each month every cub earned the pack summertime award. If they were out of town for one event they were generally back for the next. An active pack is a healthy and happy pack. 

Be sure to engage your parents and be welcoming to the whole family. KISMIF

Check this out: https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=563464852479447&set=a.547497750742824

EFFECTIVE SEPT 1 ALL ADULTS ATTENDING OVERNIGHT EVENTS/ACTIVITIES OF OVER 72 HOURS MUST BE IN A FEE PAID ADULT LEADER POSITION. 

Many units do activities that span over 72 hours such as the Gettysburg Historic Trails program that may take a long holiday weekend. This will mean that parents that wish to accompany the group must now cough up a fee paid registration. 

My sons unit had a dad n lad Gettysburg trip from Friday to Monday on the Memorial Day weekend or once the school term ended. Great event but now all those parents (these days moms n daughters too) will find it considerably more costly and some units may forgo this type of great program event the encourages retention and new membership. 

I suppose that a pack and or new families could opt for the red vest as a uniform, at least initially. If a pack has someone that sews, just make a pattern and buy red felt with a 50j% or 60% off coupon and bang out a bunch. Simple enough. Since most kids join in the Sept/Oct timeframe Christmas is right around the corner and you might suggest that parents opt to get uniform parts a Christmas gifts instead of a lot of the 'junk' that ends up played with once and then gathers dust. 

50 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Years ago one of the parents in my kids pack asked me 'when do we pay for all of this? we're getting a lot more than it is costing us."      That is an interesting comment if I am reading it correctly.  A parent asking when the other shoe of cost may drop?  It is usually not that kind of comment we hear, so it must have been refreshing.  Yes, we can find many ways of spreading the wealth while spreading the cost too.  Sadly, far too many choose to ignore those realities and just seem to feel they have little need to contribute.  Meanwhile we hope to keep heads above water, or simply absorb because it is fun or rewarding for us, as well as them.  Then you have a Scout Sunday at your church where your unit has met for a centry plus, and the congregation smiles and loves the scouts and makes it clear it IS important.

It's great to see the families attend a Scout Sunday service. Our pack promoted the religious awards program and had the awards presented at a service... not all the kids were the same faith so it was quite ecumenical.  Adding a religious awards program (most faiths offer two awards for cubs, one for younger and one for Webelos) is a fairly inexpensive way to expand program and provide both fun and recognition. 

4 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

It's a system that has just made a "good ole' boy" network the only game in town. Truly, BSA should take a 

Holding them accountable- or, not tolerate them- is a whole other issue. How many of you can raise your hand and say your Council is transparent on when the E-board meets? 

Every unit has a Chartered Partner Rep and they are voting members of the council. If the problem is big en;ough, get the CR's together and go rock the boat. You have nothing to lose. 

Today it is not unusual for a Council Scout Exec to be compensated (benefits & salary) at a quarter of a million or more. A really great SE is worth that and more. A board that invests that much in a council exec should expect performance. I have worked for both great council execs and for really bad ones. Councils that consistently lose membership, merge districts, cut staff and run in the red or constantly raise less money year after year probably have a leadership problem. Councils that hold their own in difficult times and grow and rise to the challenges probably have solid leadership. The field execs generally work longer hours than their compensation would reflect and where there is poor leadership they tend to 'get out' and go where they will be properly compensated and appreciated. There will always be those in the profession that are highly competent and committed to the programs and mission and councils are blessed to have them at any level. Scouting needs solid, competent and dedicated professionals. Support the good and great ones and don't tolerate incompetent ones. 

BSA fees effective August 2022 and they will be going up

• $75 for Cub Scouts, Scouts BSA, Venturing and Sea Scouts participants ($3 increase)
• $45 for Exploring participants (no change in cost)
• $30 for council-paid memberships (no change in cost)
• $45 for all adult volunteers (no change in cost, includes cost of background check) 
• $100 for a unit charter/affiliation fee ($25 increase)

• CUB SCOUT UNIFORM Hat                         22.99 Shirt                       32.99 Belt                        14.99 Neckerchief       12,99 Slide                      7.99 Unit # x3              5.97 Total                      97.92 Vest                       14.99 Pants                     32.99 Total                      145.90 Handbook           23.99 Total                      169.89 Scout Life            15.00 Total                      184.89 Don’t forget the sales tax on most of the above

  $25 one-time joining fee for new program participants in Cub Scouts, Scouts BSA, Venturing and Sea Scouts (Not pro-rated, no change in cost) 
• $15 for Scout Life magazine; this is the first price increase since 2005

($3 increase)

 It can cost a family over $300 to join Cubbing and uniform their child for the first year. That doesn’t include unit dues or event/activity fees.

Time to go to a pack neckerchief, make hats optional and start a pack uniform bank to exchange 'experienced' uniforms. 

Sounds good... my sons den and pack met through the summer. The dens did work on advancement (those items best done outdoors and in the summer) and the dens did field trips to places that a whole pack couldn't go. Our den toured the ground radar control at the airport and got to sit in a passenger plane including visiting the cockpit, they made their own pan pizzas at a local pizza shop and did a lot of other 'stuff'. The pack had a graduation ceremony in June and everyone moved up to the next level. Monthly pack meetings were at parks and one at the council camp. We did nature hikes (creek walk), played whiffle ball  and other games, had pack picnics as part of the outdoor Pack meetings and marched in the Memorial Day and July 4th parades after which the pack treated to hot dogs and sodas. The new Arrow of Light den did a father n son (pre girls in the program) trip to Gettysburg where they earned the trail awards which were presented at the June pack meeting. With multiple events through the summer, every cub got to earn the Summertime Award pin. There was no 'coming back in the fall' because no one ever left. It was the strongest pack in the district. We also had most of the families take advantage of the Day Camp and resident camp that the council provided. 

As volunteers, we can't do much to control registration costs but we can impact program costs. In the Longhouse Council we have some unique things which frankly any council can have. We have a 'museum' committee and they started a 'hole in the wall' museum years ago. It attracted some good scouter followers and they ended up raising funds to build the modern 2,500 sf William Hillcourt Museum. Recently that group of volunteers agreed to create a new local Erie Canal Historic Award program that is low cost and we are having a free event in May to encourage youths to earn the award and other recognitions. Additionally, this program will introduce units to the many state facilities along the Erie Canal historic trail where they can do low cost camping. Volunteers can share all sorts of things from how to inject fun, low cost crafts to sharing resources for events (inter pack/inter troop) that are fun and exciting. Years ago one of the parents in my kids pack asked me 'when do we pay for all of this? we're getting a lot more than it is costing us." Even at todays fees, we can give families a lot more than they paid for if we all join together to put out the highest/best quality year round program experience. Low cost and free programs keep it simple and make it fun at all levels. https://www.williamhillcourtmuseum.org/announcing-a-new-award-that-can-be-earned-the-erie-canal-trail-medal-and-patch

I never thought that the BSA did a good job in dealing with the lawsuits. 90 % of the claims were over 30 years old. The BSA executives generally were dealing with 2nd and 3rd hand information and there were no mandatory reporting laws, national background checks and/or protections for those that reported from defamation suits. It was a different time and those claims should have been made against the perps or their estates, not the BSA. I know the lengths that the BSA went to with their ineligible volunteer files (prior to national background checks) to protect kids and the BSA. We did more than probably any other agency. To day it angers me that this happened is an understatement. There may have been a few instances where we should have paid but not over 80,000 and not to the tune of billions of dollars. It was just easier to target and blame the BSA and go for one big bag of cash instead of go after the criminals and have to collect thousands of small claims. Those are the kinds of lawyers that give the good ones a bad name.