Ojoman

8 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

what was once so simple is now so complicated...

These days it's as much about protecting the organization as protecting the kids. With billions of dollars in settlement through the bankruptcy we made dozens of law firms and their lawyers rich, many are now millionaires. Where there are assets there are predatory lawyers... 

12 minutes ago, cmd said:

A MBC might also be a cub parent. I agree that it wouldn't be right to have a den leader or pack committee member claiming that their MBC registration covers them, but if their role within the pack is just as parent, I think it would be reasonable to count them as a second registered adult in a pinch.  MBC have to go through the background check and fulfill ypt requirements - same as Unit Scouter Reserve which does count. 

With all the expenses facing parents to have to come up with a local and national registration fee that can in some councils be north of $80 a year just to be the 2nd adult at a meeting or activity can be a real burden. I all in favor of anything that gives young families a break. and if you are talking both parents we are now over $160. If a parent can get the background check and YPT done via the MB registration and improve opportunities for Scouts to have access to a counselor then that is a win/win in my book. 

On 1/18/2023 at 1:56 PM, Eagledad said:

My big concern is whether parents want a character building program or an after school program.

Barry

Hi Barry 

While there are many parents that do want the Character & Citizenship values that are a major part of Scouting, sadly, there are many parents today that are fine with turning over child rearing to the internet as it is easier, cheaper and makes no demands on them. The good news, find the interested parents and cultivate a volunteer spirit in them and with a strong program their kids will bring the other kids that probably need it more with them. 

6 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

. The next few years will be interesting.

Barry

Hi Barry... The next few years will determine the future of the program. There are literally millions of additional youth available to recruit today than in the mid 70's when our membership peaked plus we now can recruit girls at all levels and Cubs starts at grade k instead of grade 3. Parents are starting to realize that all the computer/internet time is taking away many of the experiences that they held dear. Playing outdoors, camping, being involved in a youth program, growing socially, physically, and morally/ethically. Today, college professors worry that their students term papers will be written by artificial intelligence. Kids bully other kids on social media, and on line predators stalk children on online game sites and friend them on their Facebook pages or invite them to chat rooms. There are so many more issues that face families and kids today and while Scouting can't solve all of them, Scouting can help. As the parent of an Eagle Scout I expect that you are well aware. Few things are more powerful than 'shared vision'. We need to share the opportunities and possibilities that Scouting brings to kids, parents, whole families. Thanks for your comments. 

Congratulations, keep up the good work. Over the years I have personally witnessed and also be told of positive lifechanging experiences for both the kids and the adults in the program. For my money there is no better place to give your time than to build our future citizens. Thanaks.

2 hours ago, malraux said:

Most dens are coed (un)officially now and will be fully official starting this summer, based on the rumors going around. 

I expect that it will be inevitable and the same for troops. It is stupid to have girls in AOL dens and lack a girls troop for them to cross over to. The folks at national are at once extremely cautious (gun shy after the bankruptcy) and not very forward thinking...

1 hour ago, malraux said:

This is out of date with the current version of the Guide to Safe Scouting. Two deep now requires two registered leaders both over aged 21, and because many dens are going coed, one of those leaders needs to be female.

Thanks for the correction... I'm not saying that it is not a good idea but that would add 5 or 6 new leader registrations and double that if the pack has 'girl dens'. Looking at $250 to $500 or more depending on council surcharges at recharter time. 

I can understand the paranoia after the lawsuits and bankruptcy but sometimes the pendulum swings a bit too far. 

The 2021 printing of the Merit Badge Counselor application allows counselors to register without a fee. Perhaps we need to do this for the 2nd adult in Cubbing... 

"Merit badge counselors must register as adult Scouters and be approved by the council advancement committee for each merit badge listed on this Merit Badge Counselor Information form. A merit badge counselor does not have to pay a registration fee, but must complete an Adult Application for position code 42, fill out this form, and complete BSA Youth Protection training. Submit the Adult Application with the Merit Badge Counselor Information form to your council. Counselors may wish to associate with a particular unit but are encouraged to serve any Scout from any unit." This was from 2021, let me know if this has changed too. Thanks

Many parents that don't/won't sign up as Den leaders still come to the meetings and remain until time to leave. A den leader can count a spouse, parent of another child or other adult at least 18 or older as the 2nd person.  This is from Scouting Magazine, "

• Two-deep leadership is required on all outings. A minimum of two registered adult leaders — or one registered leader and a participating Scout’s parent or another adult — is required for all trips and outings. One of these adults must be 21 years of age or older.'

It can be done and it is not that difficult. If a male and female den meets together for den meetings or field trips be sure to have one male and one female present. It is advisable that all parents in a pack (registered or not) have youth protection training. 

There are no 'reasons' not to, only excuses...

3 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

Would these not be the highest numbers or close to it for the year? 

There are generally 3 numbers to consider, total youth served during the year that includes all youth registered (even if some were dropped), total active youth (this is at recharter time after dropped youths are subtracted) and end of year figures which are often close to the total youth served because most units are now on a calendar year. The only time a districts, councils or national numbers should be compared would be right after recharter is completed which is the most accurate count of ACTIVE YOUTH. 

1 hour ago, 5thGenTexan said:

My point here, girls have only been allowed to be in Cub Scouts since 2019.  We are about to start the 5th year of this nationally.  There hasnt even been the potential for a girl who joined as a Lion or Tiger to go through the entire program yet and see if they want to cross over to a Troop. 

Great point: A big issue for Scouts is recruiting new members. and for decades now, rather than actually try to recruit, many troops simply depend on AOL's crossing over. Retention in a pack with a 6 year long program is a serious issue. If a pack does not retain members they will end up with few, if any, Aol's to cross to a troop. I would hope that now that things have settled down regarding covid that packs will do better recruiting and that they will address retention issues. 

24 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Third cause:   Council not facilitating, educating/training, supporting the work it takes to administer a Troop

Fourth cause:  Parents not willing to put in the time or effort to create a Troop and mentor youth in through the program.

Fifth cause:  Council not focusing on a healthy unit climate and working to create the needed unit structure.  Lack of a good leadership structure (including pay) needed to recruit, train, support, and retain DE's... which results in a  lack of a solid District Volunteer Staff, Commissioner Corps, etc. etc. etc.

All good points... but, (RE: third cause) A girl troop only needs to recruit a female leader and can share the male troops leadership, meet at the same time (effectively with) the male troop and participate with the male troop on all activities as long as a female leader is involved. 

4th cause, both male and female units suffer from this so shared leadership makes sense. 

5th cause, I totally agree... 

Re: first and second: BSA is a private organization and the president (Honorary president of the BSA) and congress have no real say in how BSA runs. Regarding girls not doing enough to recruit buddies to form a girl troop... that would be a moot point if our units ran like other countries with blended programs. Great piece on that to read here: https://www.scouts.org.uk/volunteers/inclusion-and-diversity/including-everyone/girls-and-women-in-scouts/

I understand that the folks at National are revisiting the issue of girls in troops as in girl troops vs blended troops. While I have no difficulty in troops being all male or all female, I am concerned about the number of girls that may be in Cubs and will find no girl troop within a reasonable distance. Most other countries have 'blended' units. Girls can be in their own patrols or a blended patrol but in our country just because only a couple of girls, or even 1 girl is graduating with AOL and when there isn't an all girl unit to join, why should their Scouting path come to a halt? I see this as a serious issue and one that needs resolved soon. 

A really good SE is worth whatever it takes to keep him/her. You can find your council's tax returns online. Search for the council and 990. Most returns show what the SE is paid and the cost of the benefits package. Council executive boards are often headed by people that make well into the 6 figures and think nothing of giving the SE a significant package. I'm sure many SE's are overpaid and some underpaid. A council that raises less money each year, can't maintain staff and drops significant membership because of poor services may have an incompetent or mediocre SE. Unit CR's have a strong voice in council operations if they would get together and flex their muscle. 

Gone are the days when the BSA served upwards of 20% of the available youth. However, IMHO there is no legitimate reason not to be serving around 3% and I know in my council we only serve a fraction of a percent. Professionals need to build and support strong programs that attract youth, families and then retain them. Sadly, I don't expect to see that happen and that is why I expect to see more 'issues', problems and mergers and fewer professionals to serve and support the volunteers. My wife said the only difference between the council here and the Titanic was the Titanic had a band. I don't think she was too far off the mark. It's a shame... 

12 minutes ago, yknot said:

I think the old models don't work. I don't think the council should be so focused on generating income any more. That is how they have become so detached from what units need to survive and it's killing program, recruitment, retention, membership, and volunteer sustainability. Councils ought to be rebuilt around serving the units. Fundraising has also completely changed. The mix for scouting has to change to allow local units to directly solicit local businesses. The local businesses that are left do not want to give to a council that they perceive as having no connection to their community. They will, however, give to their local organizations or to people they interact with in the community. 

As a youth, Scouting involved learning to 'pay your own way' through den and troop dues and helping in the pack fund raiser. We were taught to 'work' for the funds and not expect handouts. I think that is still a great lesson that helps build self sufficiency and personal responsibility and accountability. District professionals should have a minimal finance responsibility and a primary program/unit support role. Personal opinion, councils should not be tacking on operating expenses on top of the national registration fees. I even have some reservations about the product sales percentage that supports councils but at least packs and troops get a much higher return than the GSA gives its units. 

You can find most councils annual tax report, 990, on the internet. Usually a year behind but still a good indicator of where the council's income comes from and where it goes. There is a lot of good information to be gleaned. Professional staff, camp expenses and insurances generally make up the bulk of costs. Frankly, the board and key professionals should be generating the bulk of the needed income through various fund raising efforts. Mergers and cutting staff positions are part of the membership problem today. Less staffing equals fewer support services for the volunteers. If each staffer represented 800 to 1000 volunteers and you go from 8 to 6 staff then you will probably see the number of volunteers, units and youth start to decline. The BSA at council levels is far smaller (professionally) now than it was 20, 30 or even 50 years ago. It is a problem... 

"Our Pack is struggling. Number-wise we are OK but the program we offer is not great. I do think if the Cub Scout program were delivered as designed it would be a great thing for the kids. I have taken basically every Cub Scout training class on my.scouting.com. The problem isn’t about knowing what should be happening, but instead about how to make it happen. My goal here isn’t to bash any part of the program, but to get help in dealing with these issues. Here are some specific concerns:"

1.      Not enough adult help: A common problem when packs only recruit Cubs and not their parents. The goal must be to engage the whole family. Induct the parents with the kids. Set the bar high in expectations of parental support and involvement. This starts on day 1. Have the ‘active’ parents give testimonials.  Have one volunteer assigned to orient new parents/families to the pack. Seek out parents and ask for their help and support. 

2. No venue. The best packs often have the dens meeting when and where the den leaders want them to meet. The Pack meeting (once a month) is for the dens to show off, to give recognition/awards out and for fellowship. Some of the best pack meetings can and should be out of doors during the summer and good weather months. Cubs should be a 12 month experience. If you need an indoor meeting place for the school year or during inclement weather and your chartered partner is unable to provide one, canvass your parents or check local churches, schools, and service/fraternal groups.
 3. No council. Frankly, a well run pack only ‘needs’ the council for registration/insurance purposes and for district/council events (Daycamp, Family Camp, Roundups/school nights). For most program the pack should be able to plan and execute a solid 12 month program. I would suggest an annual pack planning meeting with key leaders and setting up an 18 month plan.

4. Cost. The cost of everything goes up… but there are ways to control expenses. Set up a uniform bank/exchange. Canvas local thrift stores for uniforms and have families ‘donate’ shirts that have been outgrown. Have the pack make a pack neckerchief and class B shirt. Plan an annual program that is not ‘expensive’. Day use of council properties is generally free or at minimal cost. Council and district events are also generally affordable. Most packs are situated near parks, hiking trails and historic sites that can offer free/low cost programs. With a little planning packs can keep their programs not only affordable but a real bargain. Again, Cubs should be active for a full year.  

5. Too wide an age range. While I agree that it is difficult to ‘retain’ membership in a program that spans 5 ½ years, it is not impossible. First, see that your program plan meets the interests and needs of both kids and parents. It will help if you plan program in 3 steps K-1, 2-3, 4-5. When it comes to crafts and activities kids and families need to see a progression. True, the advancement program is geared to that but the rest of your program needs to progress also. An example would be a Webelos Program with a ‘mini high adventure’ aspect such as earning a trail medal or a challenging hiking and camping experience that will excite the kids. Follow the guide to age appropriate activities and the guide to safe scouting. A really strong program will not only retain Cubs and families but will attract new members at the higher ages by both recruiting and word of mouth.

6. Outdoor vs. indoor. This is a common mistake; don’t build your program on advancement. Advancement mainly is den and family oriented. Plan your program on fun, excitement and giving kids new and challenging experiences that may or may not support advancement. Use your resources, community events, parades, science and nature centers and more. Get group rates to sports events or other venues. Have parents with special skills, hobbies or careers provide programs such as a tour of a fire hall, animal shelter or manufacturing facility. (Parent talent survey can help with this). Encourage the Cubs to do unique things like have a pack photo contest, art contest, genus night, movie night and the list goes on.

 7. Religion. Each year, my sons pack offered the opportunity for the cubs to earn the religious award of their faith (or for an unchurched family to pick one award) Most faiths offer cubs the opportunity to earn two awards during their Cub Scout years. One early on and one as a bear/Webelos. This helped meet the ‘Duty to God’ portion of the program without any discrimination towards any group or individual. Participation was optional and generally all of the families did get involved. For some it was a welcome opportunity to discuss their personal faith/beliefs with their kids.

1 hour ago, MattR said:

Isn't retention another way of saying program quality?

Great point!!! But we need to remember that means that the Den meetings for cubs need to be geared to their interests and abilities and grow with them and the pack meetings need to incorporate elements that recognize and interest all 6 grade levels... Field trips can be done by dens so older kids do more challenging things. In troops it means engaging all of the scouts in a meaningful way at the patrol and troop level. Monthly camping, hiking or other interesting and challenging activity along with one (or more) high adventure type events... Canoe trip, Historic trails challenge, caving, rock climbing (even at an indoor facility for climbing and rappelling) or other significant program. Most of our members time is spent in meetings and if they are dull/boring that can be deadly to retention. Thanks for the comment. 

23 hours ago, dk516 said:

Rebuild/Rebound/Recover can happen but only with some serious marketing on all levels. And I think it has to be real marketing showing achievements, highlighting local community support, Eagle projects benefitting the community but also how Scouts benefit the community and how Scouts benefits the individual members being in the program. I don't think however this is achieved by shiny corporate slogans, studio marketing materials and shiny photos on popcorn bags. We need to go back to highlight the real achievements and benefits of the organization. 

While I agree with the marketing remarks I also think a huge part of the problem is RETENTION. We used to have in person training, Pow Wow's and roundtables. Roundtable participation where it is 'in person' is often very low compared to a few years ago. Volunteers were better equipped to run high quality local unit programs that better met the needs/interests of both youth and parents. Cubbing retention is generally poor in part to having to hold a members interest for 5 1/2 years. We can do better.  

11 hours ago, cmd said:

Our pack used to meet all on one night, but not necessarily in the same space, and one of the other two packs in our area takes over a church building for the evening for den meetings, but the only time the kids are all together is if it's nice enough to hang out all together outside before the meetings start.  Having them on the same night just makes it easier to schedule.  If a den normally meets on Mondays, then trying to get those kids to a pack meeting on Weds is hard.  The family generally has other stuff scheduled for other nights and needs to designation one day as the one that they are going to have scout stuff.  We also encourage parents to stay for the meetings even after the kids age out of the "parent partner" stage, but don't absolutely require it if the kids are okay without their parent along.  So, having the dens meet at the same time helps free up parents to attend their Lion/Tiger meeting without having to figure out how to occupy their Wolf/Bear/Webelos child.  

Although we only meet together at the pack meeting, we also have at least one pack activity going on each month (hike, leaf raking for the place we meet, camping, pinewood, blue & gold, scouting for food, zoo or aquarium trip...) and when the kids are all dressed the same and running ahead of you, knowing what den a kid belongs to at least narrows down which child you might be looking at.  

Glad to see the regular activities. Our pack had both pack activities and encouraged the dens to do field trips on their own. A lot of places you can take 6 or 8 kids but not larger groups. Our den toured the airport including one of the control towers and another time went to a pizza hut and the kids were allowed to make their own personal pizza. We tipped heavy on the pizza trip especially since they didn't charge for the pizza and drinks. Cubs builds memories.  for a lifetime. 

3 hours ago, DuctTape said:

I guess I am used to a cub program which was 95% done at the den level. Dens met completely separately from the pack. The only interaction with otjer dens was pinewood derby and B&G. Pack meetings were rare and short, and we just stayed together as a den or with our parents.

Dens were originally designed to meet in the neighborhood, usually at the den leaders home. The monthly pack meeting was a big event when all the dens would come together and show off what they had been doing including crafts, skits, songs, opening and closing ceremonies and also badges that had been earned during the prior month were presented. It was a big deal. These days many, if not most, packs tend to meet together every week and after an opening, they have breakouts for the dens. It kind of takes some of the magic and excitement out of the old getting together once a month. Also, it locks all the dens into a specific night. It used to be that the den leaders could hold their meetings when it was most convenient for them. Weeknights, evenings, weekend... the only date that was locked in was the pack night. I think the 'old' was was much better in serving the kids and leaders. 

5 hours ago, Armymutt said:

If a girl or boy joins a Troop at the age of say 15, they must start learning the skills required for Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class that their friends learned years before and are now working on Merit Badges for Star, Life, and Eagle.  Who else are working on those same skills?  The eleven and twelve year olds.  This is what I have seen and discussed with volunteers from across the nation.  Even if they are separated from the younger Scouts, they still are going to require some time to catch up to their age matched friends.

Most troops today are small. Few have more than 2 patrols. Packs often only cross over a couple of AOL's, having lost most of the others that originally joined, during the 5 1/2 year long program. Since there is not time/tenure requirement from Tenderfoot to first class and older youth joining can 'catch up' within the first 5 or 6 months. An older youth can also work on merit badges with his/her friends as they work towards their higher ranks. The only thing that will hold the new youth back would be tenure requirements and leadership requirements. If we impress on our older scouts, grade 8 and up, of the type of resume they are building through leadership training and offices held along with badges and ranks earned, perhaps the word would get out and more of their peers would join at those higher ages. 

4 hours ago, yknot said:

Quote

 Are the early signups for Lions and Tigers really beneficial in the long run or would it be better to join later?  That is a thorny question that would take a huge and expensive survey to complete.

Based on the membership crashes of the past several years, that doesn't seem to be bearing up.

All anyone needs to do is to look at the Council membership reports by grade for Cub Scouts and you will see that most packs lose 60% or more of their Lions/Tigers by the Webelos years and many Webelos drop out prior to graduating into troops. Most packs are built like a pyramid with a large base at gr k & 1 and a small group at the top. The reality is that if they are offering a solid program that meets the needs and interests at the various 'ages and stages' of the kids that the Pack would be larger at the top than the bottom as kids would be attracted and join their friends in the later years as they hear about/learn about the great experiences their buddies are having. 

3 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

NOOOOOO!!!! This is why a quality UNIT staff including TRAINED and KNOWLEDGABLE volunteers is critical along with solid so that, ultimately, you have no need of district/council staff support.

This should be the gold standard!  Growing up unit volunteers so they do not need commissioners, district, council, national!!!!!

You describe perhaps one in 100 units that have the level of commitment/dedication by the leadership to become so competent that they don't require any support. Scouting is supposed to be a brotherhood and the structure was put there for a purpose. God Bless those few highly competent units that run so well but eventually every unit will run into issues as the experience leadership turnover. We need more opportunities like 'Pow Wow's' and 'Univ. of Scouting' events as well as well attended roundtables to deliver the best programs. 

Years ago I discovered that sports wasn't the problem. Our Pack started with 6 families, two years later we had over 50 and a year after that split a new pack off with 30 families and we were still around 50. We had 100% retention except for families that moved away. Kids, Parents, everyone was having a good time and when folks are happy they stay. Yes, we had single parents, yes we had 2 parent working families, yes we had sports to compete with (baseball, soccer, basketball, football, swim team, hockey and more). But we became the competition by running a high quality 12 month program that engaged the families. Don't blame sports. We didn't have the internet but we had to compete with Nintendo and Atari. The troop grew in short order from 2 kids attending meetings to well over 20 and probably went a lot higher but we moved and lost track of them. 

Don't point fingers at sports and family structure to explain the decline. We did take a hit when the decade of resisting the LGBTQ lawsuits and bad press cost us donors including United Way as they were pressured to defund us and as we were labeled bigots and hate mongers. It was an unwinnable fight and more recently we got hit again by the 'shyster' lawyers that used todays standards to judge 30, 40 and 50 year old abuse cases against the BSA and went after the BSA instead of the 'perverts' because the BSA had assets. Many lawyers/law firms specialized in suing the BSA and for my money the BSA mostly rolled over. We got labeled as enablers to sexual predators and our ineligible volunteer files were labeled the "perversion files".  That didn't help our membership much and the whole thing has cost the BSA chartered partner relationships, units and membership. 

Covid seems to have completed the perfect storm as neither the Cub or Scout programs are suited to staying home and doing stuff on line. 

We have a long, hard road ahead of us and I expect many will be too tired or frustrated to continue. Time will tell. But I do agree that making the programs focus advancement instead of leadership, character and citizenship is a mistake. The magic of Scouting was that kids learned to have their character developed by having fun. Greenbar Bill Hillcourt said that "Scouting is a game with a purpose". BP often likened Scouting to 'a game'. Advancement, like character, leadership and citizenship, should happen as a result of 'playing the game'.