Ojoman

6 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

And they have "skin in the game".  Please continue with the long version.

My vigil honor name translates to 'likes to talk', after this it may be changed to 'likes to write'... lol 

I'll make this 'personal'. I started as a professional in Penn's Woods Council out of Johnstown, Pa. I did my youth scouting in the Pittsburgh area. After 3 years I was promotable and went to New Jersey but had family reasons to return to Western Pa and Harry Mangle in Johnstown offered me a position with a considerable raise. My Scout Exec in NJ had me resign my position to accept the new post and then had the NE region block the move. I ended up going to the Pittsburgh Council with a slight cut in pay but now I was in my old stomping grounds. I did quite well but a year later was offered a position as a youth counselor at a correction facility. More pay, regular hours and I was engaged so I made the jump (still had my nose out of joint over the blocked move). Long story short, 8 years later, with kids in cubs the new Scout Exec invited me back into the profession. I took over another district and rebuilt it. I don't count my success as being due to being a local but rather to my prior training and experience including college. The moral, it really doesn't matter if you are local or not if you have the tools and motivation to do the job. 

50 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

I don't know if the schools will let us in or not.  Either way, there's no one to get into the schools. 

You need to have your DE do this along with your unit commissioner and district membership chairman. They should be on board to assist, especially to save a unit. They need to know what your unit status is and they need to assist in helping turn the unit around!

1 minute ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Do you believe the current model of moving folks around and pulling talent from outside of a community, especially for SE, is a prudent one for BSA?

Back in the 1960's (boy I am old to recall this stuff) there was a membership scandal in Chicago. The purpose of bringing in 'new blood' was/is in part that a new broom sweeps clean so coverups don't continue and bad practices end. Not sure that really works because too often it seems like the good old boys take care of each other... less so now than in past years but still. At the lower levels a seasoned/experienced Sr. Dist Exec should be able to get up to speed quickly, even in a new district setting. I'll quote another pro, Every exec will tell you that they took over a district that was trash and when they left it was doing awesome!' To be honest (and a scout always is) I liked a challenge and was presented with my share. One district had 3/4 of the packs dead or dying and it took me a year to turn that around but I won the leaders respect and you could say they owed me. My Scoutreach program in another district was mostly on paper when I arrived but my new DE and I spent a year rebuilding that and it is one of the things I was most proud of. (sadly, today there hasn't been a scoutreach program there for over a decade). I have seen local people come in and do an awesome job in part because they have a head start on knowing the territory. I could elaborate but there is the 'short' version. 

19 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

@Ojoman, thanks for the input.

However, that isn't what I was fishing for...

You gave great tips on how a DE can be successful.

Instead, I was looking for better ideas for Councils and National to improve the professional corps.  That is, councils and National are responsible for recruitment, training, retention, development, and promotion of their personnel.

They arguably have not been successful at meeting these responsibilities.  

What would you do differently to ensure our organization has and keeps the DE's (and therefore the successive leadership levels) to make the mission of BSA happen?

75 Years ago the American Humanics Foundation was started for the purpose of training and educating youth agency professionals. a half a dozen colleges were cultivated to offer degrees in Humanics and many of the professors were past professionals from the BSA. They changed in 2011... (https://nla1.org/donation/) but many of their graduates entered the BSA workforce and were solid professionals. We (I was one) were taught about cultivating community organizations and resources, recruiting and keeping volunteers, fund raising and program development. These are degrees that are much needed in the nonprofit world. The training at Schiff Scout Reservation in New Jersey was also a great help. I'm not so keen on the present professional development courses. Councils might also consider starting a careers Exploring or Venture Crew for older scouts and plant the seeds there for coming into the profession. Summer camp staff is another place to cultivate. Alpha Phi Omega fraternity is a national service fraternity that is associated with BSA and councils that serve areas where there are chapters should/could cultivate positive relationships and engage APO in running merit badge clinics and in doing service projects at camps... possibly even have them sponsor and help run local units or activities. 

Councils might also check out some of their more successful volunteers at both unit and district levels. Early on in my career I left for 8 years and I was a volunteer during that time and built a pack up from half a dozen families to over 50 and then split off a new pack of 30 as we were getting too big. I learned a lot as a volunteer that I put to good use when I reentered the profession. I guess this is more along the lines of what you were looking for. 

14 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

So I guess the DE would need to be actually visible in the district, maybe make an effort to get to know the units, and not be an arrogant and condescending person in communications with units.

Hey now... positive, remember... and yes, a DE should be visable and approachable... and try to live up to the oath and law... of course that is a pretty tall order but we can try... 

19 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

Allow me to point out a few facts to you:

I found the materials on line that listed the individual cases and included the documents and I did read a fair number to get an idea of how serious the suit was and yes, it was serious but none of the cases I saw included any professionals as abusers (I certainly expect there were some, just not the ones I read) but mainly volunteer adults and in some cases adults that were not even registered but affiliated through the chartered partner or as a relative of a youth member. I would change my mind if you can direct me to the documentation that shows that BSA employees were the abusers in significant numbers. 

The bottom line is that I don't deny that victims should have had their day in court. Frankly, most of them could probably have gotten a much better settlement if they had sued their local councils individually. I believe there was one case settled for 5 million dollars, perhaps adjusted later to a lower amount but the point is, you are correct that individual judgements were quite substantial. 

The problem for me is I know literally dozens of individuals whose lives were vastly improved because of Scouting and the BSA because of this suit will now fail to reach 10's and even 100's of thousands of youth that could benefit from the values/teachings and trainings along with the positive mentors in Scouting. I ran an inner city program for over 6 years that served hundreds of Scouts and Cubs and that program no longer exists. The council no longer has the resources to even properly support its traditional unit programs let alone staff and support the Scoutreach program. There was no good outcome in this for anyone but the lawyers and law firms that brought the suit. 

I'm sorry that you were a part of this dark chapter. I hope you find healing. God Bless

2 hours ago, fred8033 said:

You also missed many really good supporting arguments

You are correct and I know first hand the measures that were taken in the 70's and 80's to protect kids. I was in the first batch of professionals trained to deliver youth protection training to volunteers that addressed directly sexual abuse and exploitation. I had to check out several 'red flags' on volunteers with similar names and ages to people on the ineligable volunteer list which the lawyers suing us renamed the perversion files... catchy isn't it. The BSA had and has less of a problem than the public school system and virtually zero problem when all the guidelines are followed. Sadly, you wouldn't come away with that opinion if you followed the lurid media reports or watched the NBC documentary. When this was first surfaceing I read an article that concluded that the BSA had the Gold Standard in youth protection conpared to other youth agencies/activities... I still believe that. 

12 hours ago, nolesrule said:

Scouts BSA changed on April 18, 2022

Thanks for the update... makes sense so friends of AOL's crossing over can join up with them... 

6 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

You are so misinformed. 

Perhaps... 

1 hour ago, johnsch322 said:

All of what you say here is very disrespectful to survivors. 

Meaning no disrespect to survivors... if any youths were abused by council staff then they ought to receive a significant settlement from that council. The vast majority of cases were volunteers that violated the trust of  parents, chartered partners and the youth. Those are the ones that ought to be in jail and pay compensation. 1.4 billion divided by 82k comes out to around $1,700 per person on average. That is inadequate for anyone that was sexually abused. Having said that, the vast majority of scouts were not abused and had a positive experience in the program. To force councils to deplete their cash reserves and sell off properties and increase fees to pay damages for abuses committed by pedophiles that lied to get access to kids is not right. I can understand anyone that was abused being angry and frustrated and wanting justice. Personally, the one case I came in contact with in my 30 years as a professional the guy ended up in jail where he belonged. That, at least, put the blame where it belonged. 

1 hour ago, PaleRider said:

if this plan is shot down,whats next besides a buch of litigating for years and possibly ending up with less or even with nothing.

Personally I think the settlement was a bad deal for the BSA for a number of reasons. The NBC documentary said that of the 2.4 BILLION that the claiments would get 1.4 Billion (average $1,700) and the lawyers would split 1 Billion. Makes a lot of lawyers and law firms very wealthy. Most of the claims (90%) were over 30 years old. Very few cases involved BSA employees or camp staff as abusers so why sue the BSA and not the abusers? The lawyers went for the deep pockets... imagine trying to track down 10's of thousands of predators, many of whom had died and others with little or no assets. In so many cases the BSA employees were 3 or 4 times removed from the incident. The scout might disclose to a leader or parent or other adult and they would contact perhaps the council or chartered partner that would contact the local council who would notify the national office. Most BSA staff at any level really only had hearsay, 2nd or 3rd hand information that might not be allowed in court. Add to that little or no physical evidence. The BSA lawyers didn't do a very good job of defending the National organization. The BSA needed some 'pitbull' lawyers to defend it. I say, go for a new trial. I doubt that the BSA has much to lose and a lot to gain.... as long as they get some new lawyers to represent them. 

5 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

So, I'd love to know, please... after being on the inside, what adjustments would you make to put the professional corps on the track you think it should be on? 

What a new DE needs to become a good and effective DE

First, the right attitude. Should know what the program(s) is and have had some experience with it as a youth and perhaps as a volunteer.

Second, accept and try to live up to the Oath, Law, motto and slogan. No one manages to do this all of the time… well, maybe Jesus…

Third, be totally open and transparent with your volunteers, share your goals, vision and concerns with them and ask them to do the same with you.

Whatever goals and deadlines you have, be professional and keep them in balance. I held a meeting in December with my Cub Summer Camps key staff for planning and my immediate supervisor (south end of a horse going north) told me this wasn’t program time it was membership time of the year and I informed him that every month was membership, program and finance time. You can’t neglect any area of operations even for a month.

Be Prepared by proper planning with the correct people for the jobs at hand. Learn to read people and recruit the right person for the job at unit level and/or district level.

Be the Power behind the Throne, give the volunteers the limelight. Always properly thank and recognize your volunteers.

Communicate well! Communication is a two way street. Listen, evaluate, respond and do so regularly. Regardless of the size of your district plan on direct contact with your unit level people at least every other month. Remember, two way… in person is best but email and phone also work.

Visit your school superintendents and principals and cultivate a solid relationship with them. Help to insure that your units have good access to recruit.

Be enthusiastic! Enthusiasm is contagious! Don’t denigrate other professionals or volunteers.  Share concerns and successes: worry shared is halved and joy shared is doubled.

Do your best and encourage others to do the same… Example is the best teacher.

Be approachable and let your volunteers know that you have an open door policy. Always return messages/calls the same day if possible. Let your volunteers know that they are important to you, to the program and to the kids.

Always thank your volunteers spouses for sharing them with Scouting.

I’m certain I could write much more but this is a good start! I would hope that every new DE has a strong/solid mentor or field director to guide and develop him/her. 

3 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

. Fully support FOS so the DEs don’t have to push a rope on something that is important to them, but we don’t want theM to focus on it. 

I have found that money goals were the easiest to reach. When I came to Syracuse in the summer 25 years ago (yes I am old) my predecessor had raised less than $8k in the 'family campaign, with a bit of cleanup we got to about $9.5k but within a couple of years we were raising well over $30k. It was a combination of recruiting the right volunteer to head up the FOS campaign and improved service and visability. Just like respect, support needs to be earned. 

6 minutes ago, nolesrule said:

@fred8033 They never updated that FAQ. Shocking.

here is the current youth application with a revision date of 04/2023.

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/524-406.pdf

 

I agree the wording is somewhat ambiguous, but it's been clarified elsewhere (by some national volunteer somewhere) that the intent is that it must be on or after March 1 of the 5th grade school year. The idea behind this particular clause was that a kid not already in Cub Scouts would be allowed to join at the same time as their buddies already in Cubs would be crossing over.

Actually, unless things have changed since I 'retired' a youth remains a cub unless graduated earlier, until the end of the school year for grade 5. Youths and/or adults with certain disabilities can remain in Cubs or Scouts beyond the above criteria. I know of a nursing home that ran a Scout program for the male residents. 

19 minutes ago, OaklandAndy said:

On top of that, higher positions aren't available for DE's like there used to be. After the lawsuit, everyone had to cut positions and "do more with less". Instead of spending 3-4 years as a DE, there are waiting 5-7 years just for a spot to open up to get promoted. 

True, there is less opportunity for movement but also moving up, when it happens often means relocation and for many that means selling one house and purchasing another which is expensive. I served in multiple councils and had a total of 7 residences. (2 mobile homes and 4 homes and 1 rental) Honestly, if I had it all to do over I would probably not go into professional scouting. Easier hours and less stress in many other jobs. My engagement with volunteers gave me many positive experiences and I do feel that many thousands of youths gained positive experiences and personal growth due to my efforts to support their leaders, run/oversee many programs and build new units. That being said, I look back and I know that my family gave up a lot to support my work. A professional needs to always thank their volunteers in appropriate fashon and it would be nice if volunteers understood the sacrifices their pros make and did the same. 

3 hours ago, scoutldr said:

Those salaries are pathetic.  Less than $20 per hour, based on a 40 hr work week.  And how many DEs will be successful working ONLY 40 hrs a week?  And expected to work most nights and weekends?  No wonder there is low quality and high turnover.  

Perhaps if more volunteers understood the demands of the job coupled with low pay they might appreciate their DE more. Also, with the national decline in volunteerism (in all areas, not just BSA) DE's are finding themselve trying to do what used to be volunteer functions just to hold a district together. There is no question that district volunteer manpower should be a major concern. Of course very few units these days have adequate manpower even at that level. 

7 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

So I guess I want Pros who are in it to improve Scouts' lives, and not just collect a paycheck.

Well, you know that working for the scouts as a unit serving exec means you have a hundred or more 'bosses' to answer to and a 50 hour work week seems like a vacation. A few years ago the entry level pay was still under $40k and I doubt that it is much above that today. Young people with college loans are hard pressed to cover their basic living expenses at that rate. There is high turnover in the profession and I even know of some folks with decades of experience that are considering getting out. Constant deadlines for events, goals and quotas that sometimes don't seem to make any sense and a lot of pressure from many directions. True that most Council Execs pull down 6 figures but that is determined by the board. Anyone can look up the 990 and get an idea of what shape their council is in. A really good unit serving professioinal is worth whatever it takes to keep him/her. Same for a Council Scout Exec. Sadly, too often the Peter Principle comes into play. I do agree that without really good professionals that the movement will not recover. The care and feeding of volunteers should be an entry level course for all professionals with refreshers every few years... Best practices include prompt returns of calls/emails, thank you's, periodic visits to units including courts of honor and blue and golds, supporting and staffing all district committees and being prepared to respond to requests for information and support. The new people coming into the profession need the support of the volunteers to help them learn the job and that includes the volunteers helping when they can for the DE to meet the goals and objectives set by and for him/her. If volunteers harbor a negative view of all professionals it can become almost impossible for a new DE to survive and they will leave for a job with more pay and fewer demands and there are actually quite a few out there. Thanks for sharing. God Bless... 

1 hour ago, Armymutt said:

How do other packs recruit?  We can't get into the schools.  I've tried to nudge the DLs to plan hikes or something in the neighborhoods around where we meet.  I figure that might generate some interest.  So far, they haven't done it.  Hopefully the Army moves me back home this summer and I can get a little more hands-on with things.  Right now, we will probably continue until my oldest has AOL, then look to move with my daughter. 

Check out the Federal Boy Scouts of America Equal Access Act https://www2.ed.gov/policy/rights/guid/ocr/boyscouts.html  

school districts are required by federal statute to provide the same access to scouts that they allow for any other outside group. If they bring in outside agencies, distribute any sort of flyer for sports, community events or activities that involve any outside group they must do the same for scouts. Don't use this as a club... use it to help them control access to students. Tell them that there are only a couple of groups on the list that might ever ask for any accomodation so the district can limit access to only those that are on the list. I had a very nice chat with our superintendent and ended up having the school not only pass out fliers but also running a PSA that you can download from National and they displayed posters in the school and invited us to have a table at the family fun back to school night. We ended up with over 20 families interested. 

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

If you build a program, they will come. If you have a good program, people will support it

Sounds like you have experienced a couple of professionals that lacked the temperament and/or training for their position. One of my volunteers told me that the reason she and so many others worked so dilligently for me and for Scouting was because I always said THANKS! That little word means so much to volunteers. I have seen it make the difference between them doubling their efforts or walking away. Volunteers do 'their thing' for many reasons but often it is because of a core belief that they are making a positive difference for kids and for their community. There are a lot of professionals that are similarly motivated but just because they have a positive motivation doesn't mean that they will be competent in the job. Knowledge, continued training and working with and for your volunteers is a hallmark of a quality professional at any level. Thanks for your input. I know alot of professionals do come to this site and I hope they read this posting and all the comments and take something positive away from it. God Bless!

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

A focus on unit service.  And everything viewed through that lens

Some very good points. Unit support/service is, of course, the crux of volunteer concerns. Good emphasis on quality Commissioner service. I think empowering the unit leadership to provide a high quality program experience is critical to unit health and membership retention. This is particularly true at the Cub level where a youths (and parents) interests need to be met from grade K to grade 5. 

I would hope that every professional at every level really looks at what is happening in direct support of units and the delivery of a high quality program experience.  

My recent post on Scoutreach turned negative on professionals. Please note: that is not what this post is for. Background: I became an 'idealistic' district exec out of college back in 1971. I was fortunate to have outstanding mentors in my Scout exec and Field Director. 6 years later with 3 council experiences as a DE and SDE I left for 8 years but during that time I became a unit commissioner and then a Pack Committee Chairman. Upon returning to the profession I had a pretty good idea of what I expected and needed from my professional and translated that to how I served my volunteers. I think I ended up doing a pretty good job, not perfect but better than average in running my districts and meeting the needs of the volunteers. Feel free to speak to your experiences and if you have had an outstanding professional, let us know. You can talk about the shortcomings of service but not as an indictment of all professionals. There are a lot of truly dedicated people in the professional ranks. I'll be adding more comments as I see posts. Thanks

On 1/18/2023 at 7:41 AM, nolesrule said:

This has nothing to do with AOL, but he can join a Scouts BSA troop on March 1 if he's currently in 5th grade.

Actually, AOL includes 6 months in 5th grade which starts in June which is when the National Office rolls all the grade levels up to the next year. Tecnically a Webelos can get the Arrow of Light in December and cross to Scouts even if only 10 years old. Other times to join Scouts BSA are age 11 or 10 1/2 and graduated grade 5. 

It is always best to 'go by the book' but reality often has very similarity to what the book says.... in my experience most chartered partners have little to do with 'their units' except to provide a meeting location and sign off on the charter. Usually the original IH and governing body that chartered the unit is long gone, sometimes for decades and the present folks 'inherited' the unit and seldom pay it much attention. Years ago I announced at roundtable that I (their new DE) would be making my IH visits and the volunteers should let me know if there was anything they wanted me to discuss. On Scoutmaster asked that I not inform the IH that they 'owned' the unit as the IH only thought that they met there and the SM liked it like that. True that the CR approves the adult applications but most CR's are often picked by the unit people instead of appointed by the IH... again, reality vs 'the book'. The committee has a big role in leadership selection and should reccomend the new leaders to the CR and IH. At the unit level the CC really has most of the authority since the committee is the business arm and the CM/DL's are the program arm of the unit. Good Luck... 

I see you have been on the job now for half a year. Probably have figured out most of what you posted. I don’t know what council you are in but I’ll pass on a few ‘tips’ that you are free to use or disregard. First, change CM to MC for Master of Ceremonies… the CM runs the pack meetings and is ‘in charge’ at most events unless a a committee member or other parent is running that. Bring songs, cheers and FUN to the meetings. The CM and CC work closely to pull together the pack annual plan (calendar). The CM along with the den leaders are the program side (mostly) and the committee is the business side (mostly). Take advantage of roundtables and chat with other leaders and fish for new ideas and opportunities. Pow Wow and Univ of Scouting can also be helpful. You have a lot of experience to draw upon so you should know what to expect from the other leaders. Make sure your pack has a good relationship with a troop (perhaps two boy and girl) and prepare your Webelos leaders to cross over with their Cubs by getting them trained at the various Scoutmaster training opportunities that come up during their stint. Work with the committee chair to cultivate a positive relationship with your school district. There is a program called ‘Adopt a School’ where units take on projects for the school and PTA/PTO. Get to know your DE but your direct support in the district ought to be your Unit Commissioner. There is a lot more but this is a good start… Congratulations and KISMIF

44 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

"Shutting down" a unit means giving up the charter. 

If the leadership decides that the unit can't continue, you are correct in that the charter is to the 'sponsor'. However, the DE needs to follow the proceedures which include meeting with the IH and determining what funds and equipment remain and how they will be dispursed. Generally, funds remaining are to be used for youth programs but if the partner has no other programs then often the funds are held by the local council for a period if the unit is reorganized (seperated/rechartered). Equipment such as camping/flags/derby tracks and such also need to be assigned by the partner.