SiouxRanger

2 hours ago, MattR said:

Or a wet bandana wrapped around your head or neck.

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

Also, encourage neck cooling wraps

In my reading of WWII materials/research, I recall that studies were done to determine WHY so many fighter pilots died after successfully getting out of their planes and safely into the English Channel.

Heat loss-through the back of the neck and base of the skull. Life preservers were redesigned to elevate the neck and skull from the cold waters of the English Channel. Huge life-saving improvement.

So, yes, cool one's neck and entire head if can be done.

Soak your hat-let it evaporate.

Evaporation is what cools.  High humidity limits evaporation, and limits cooling.  Breeze/air movement increases evaporation.

The proverbial canary in the coal mine.

As an advisor on a you-ordered-a-burro trek, never having had one with a crew as a Ranger, but having heard plenty of horror stories, I was not enthused, but it is the scouts' trek.

All went well, until about half a mile West of Head of Dean.

The burro stopped dead, stock still on the trail. Would not budge.

It quickly dawned on me that something was going on.  I told the scouts not to move.

Sure enough, I located about a 3 foot rattlesnake about 5 feet from the burro under a little bush and with a bit of gentle encouragement from my walking stick, the rattlesnake moved down the slope and the burro eased up and moved forward.

How the burro was aware of the snake, I don't know as it was very hard to see.

I just reviewed some of the archived Philmont records, guidebooks, etc., and there is little material on how to deal with rattlesnakes.  Not even mentioned in the section of Dangers On The Trail. I don't recall any training as a Ranger regarding rattlesnakes.

I've had about 5 back country encounters with rattlesnakes at Philmont.  Once, moving a log for a seat to our campfire, right in our campsite, we heard a rattler.  Froze, and then the two of us dropped the log simultaneously while jumping backwards. I captured that snake and took him out a couple of hundred yards. Not the smartest thing, us picking up the log without kicking it a couple of times first.

The bigger lesson is that before taking one's pack off rest, kick the logs, etc, before sitting down.

Walked past one on a ledge about shoulder height without even seeing it.  Another adult pointed it out to me.

The other encounters were snakes spotted on the trail-just give them some room and be patient.

This whole mess is an eternal shame on Boy Scouting.

And it pains me.

The best thing that I was ever involved in, Scouting, and the only thing I was ever interested in as a youth.

And the thing that totally ruined the life of my best friend. Only 50+ years after his abuse did he tell me. He, a Phd in Geophysics, crippled by his abuse and alcohol.

And just how long does the stench linger?

Well, when introduced to serve as a board member of the local Red Cross unit, 40 years ago, like 1980, we (us new board members) were told that the "Red Cross NEVER charged WWI soldiers for donuts in World War I."

Now, just drink that in. Savor it. (Rolling it over one's tongue does not improve the flavor.)

Really?

Donuts-donuts are a concern?

Us, new board members in 1980, were being advised (by a Red Cross employee spokesperson) about the actions of the Red Cross regarding DONUTS during World War I?  1914-1918.

So where does that leave BSA National in the wake of its Bankruptcy over child sexual abuse claims?

One can hardly equate donuts to child sexual abuse. (It offends me even to type that line.)

Does bankruptcy "absorb" the stench?

Replies after 2124 will tell the tale.

So, in my time, from Dan Beard to Kit Carson Museum at Rayado, over 42 miles, with a 28± pound pack, I ran 11 hours 24 minutes, which at the time was 1 hour 13 minutes faster than the prior record.

9 hours ago, qwazse said:

Honestly, most of you all who post here regularly would make great CSE’s

And where, here on this forum, is the voice (spokesperson) of National???

From Admiral Halsey: "The world wants to know.

5 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

and end their positions there

Hmmm...

Expect someone to pick up and tow away the Troop records trailer. (Don't bother to get a receipt-trust me on this.)

Deliveries of cupcakes…

Fireworks…

Retirement parties…

Changes in gravity have been reported, but not documented scientifically…

On 6/12/2024 at 6:05 PM, skeptic said:

Well, I said I would not say more, but being sure about what I thought I had seen, I found an online copy of the discontinued Tour Permit.  Here is what I likely read and to which I referred. Read the last line or two; it specifically says "If more than one vehicle is used to transport our group, we will establish rendezvous points at the start  of each day and not attempt to have drivers closely follow the group vehicle in front of them."

And  I do not doubt you for one second.

What concerns me is that this point is likely missed by far too many. And if the risks of convoying are high, then National should make a much better effort to emphasize them.

National has done a fine job emphasizing the risks of people riding in the beds of pickup trucks.  That has been a no-no since my early days in 1969-perhaps even earlier before my camp staff days. I never see that violated, and I am at camp at least a day a month.

Whether the Tour Permit is currently required or not, the accident statistics behind the statement in the Tour Permit:

"If more than one vehicle is used to transport our group, we will establish rendezvous points at the start  of each day and not attempt to have drivers closely follow the group vehicle in front of them."

-have not changed.

If statistics showed that convoying increased the risk of accident in convoying group travel at the time that that statement was included in the Tour Permit, with the demise of the Tour Permit, the risk remains the same.

Essentially, Tour Permit or not, the danger of convoying remains high and no one should do it.

By way of example:

I caution: "Tom, be careful with the chainsaw-it could cut off your foot."

If I no longer caution Tom, who continues to use the chainsaw, does the risk of cutting off his foot decrease?

No. Tom no longer gets a warning, that is all.

Curiously, by eliminating the Tour Permit, risk adverse National, has ELIMINATED one level of warning to Scouters about the danger of convoying.

And by so doing, has actually INCREASED the risk to National's secondary insurer.

Hmmmm.

13 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

I wish it was SOP for all BSA documents, press releases, messages, etc to be CLEARLY DATED (publication and effective) WITH AUTHOR (person or group) on Page 1 and again on page footers.

My $0.02,

I have  one of those date stamps by every chair where I work and a stamp pad.  Everything gets dated. (And the time also.)

A client gives me two conflicting directions to me regarding dispositions in their Will. Very important that I can document which direction was LAST.

All of my documents bear revision dates, so I can tell which document was "last."

"Tom gets $400,000."  Then later, client directs "Bill gets the $400,000."

If I can't prove which client direction was "last" client's estate pays either Tom or Bill $400,000 and I pay the other $400,000.

I don't charge "attorney's fees"-I charge "insurance premiums."

If I can't prove I followed my client's directions, I am liable, or at least embroiled in a morass of debate and accusations likely to spoil years of life.

National's slack adherence to dating protocols leaves room for huge ambiguities.  Ambiguity = RISK.

National, being so risk adverse, why would it not adhere to standard practices in the various industries that produce documents that change over time? Like surveys.  Or building plans.  Engineering drawings. All of the surveys I've ever seen have revision date history and initials of the folks responsible.  State statues are smothered with overwhelming evolutionary history.

An internet search on a topic will produce hits to a plethora of documents and if they are not dated, it is a fool's errand to determine which is the most current guideline to be followed.

And, can anyone shed light on why there is NO National voice on this forum responding to the excellent discussion here?

But I know not how to rebuild an eye lost to trauma, nor repair a broken bone, nor restore breath to a crushed body.

I DO  know how to discuss safety in advance of horrific loss.

Extremism in defense of Safety is no Vice.

And for mixing discussions of nonsense and safety.

I am known for, and sometimes derided for, being a a "safety nut."

And the safety issue of convoying entirely escaped me.

11 hours ago, DuctTape said:

These other drivers were oblivious to everyone else due to their primary objective of staying in a group. 

Excellent point. A bona fide data point to evaluate the wisdom of convoying.  I've seen that in funeral processions with 20 or 30 cars.  Running stop signs en masse, etc.

I once saw a strange pattern of streaming traffic coming off a side road onto a state highway (very rural)-all running the stop sign.  No hearse in view, and given the layout and topography, had there been a hearse, it should have been in view, but apparently it was so far ahead of the procession as to be out of sight. No vehicles had funeral running flags on the hoods, nor headlights on… All confusing to me. No traffic control-officers.

At my father-in-law's funeral procession not so long ago, in Tennessee, police officers accompanied the procession and even blocked off major roads for a few minutes. And, AND, all oncoming vehicles pulled off the road in a show of tribute. Never seen that before.

Funeral processions are just one subset of  "vehicle convoy scenarios." But it does demonstrate how the normal traffic rules get distorted (totally ignored) in certain circumstances. And how other drivers, not aware that other vehicles who all consider themselves "in a convoy," have no idea of the "convoy mentality" and may well end up entangled in the convoy.

To my eternal regret, regarding the rural funeral procession, I got intermixed in the funeral procession. To avoid that, I would have had to come to a complete stop on a major state route until about 20 cars ran the stop sign to keep up with the funeral procession. I made the right decision from a safety viewpoint, but I still feel like an intruder into a private moment.

11 hours ago, skeptic said:

How about we simply agree that actual convoying is not the best idea,

My troop ALWAYS convoyed, for all of my 24 years there, and I led the convoy for all those years.

NO ONE ever questioned the practice. AND THAT is the problem.

"Never questioned." 

"We've always done it this way."

In my opinion, that is never a good answer.

Well, in my case, and my failure, the question was never asked…I just trod the road always taken.

"Two roads diverged into a yellow wood…" -Frost

Richard Feynman was unable to resolve a physics problem by 7%. All his work led him to an answer that was 7% off accepted theoretical physics.

And so, Feynman reviewed ALL the prior academic papers regarding the issue.

And found them to be 7% OFF.

Feynman was right.

Feynman was right all along.  Feynman is a Nobel Prize winner.

"Simply agreeing" may be accepting the inaccurate conclusions of others.

11 hours ago, skeptic said:

A policy, maybe not on paper.  Common sense is all we need.  Why do we need to make it bigger than needed?

"A policy, maybe not on paper…"

So, if not on paper, where do we find the Convouy "policy" of the US wide national organization of the BSA?

11 hours ago, skeptic said:

How about we simply agree that actual convoying is not the best idea, and that defensive driving and obeying the law are paramount.

Convoying and not driving defensively and not obeying the laws are not mutually exclusive. One can convoy and follow all the rules of traffic law. (The question is whether the participants of the convoy are instructed on how to do that-and THAT is a good point.)

In my experience, I anticipated lights changing to red, traffic loads, etc.…adjusted speed accordingly.

We never had a traffic related issue.

We planned our routes to maximize travel on major highways, interstates, with few access points to minimize traffic issues.

11 hours ago, skeptic said:

How about we simply agree

 Essentially a statement:  "I'll tell you what to think/believe…"

I have a simple philosophy: "I don't ask that anyone believe or think (accept my beliefs) and I don't accept any compulsion that I believe this of anyone else."

12 hours ago, skeptic said:

as I have little patience at my seasoned age for nonsense.

"seasoned age"

Well, I'm over 70.

(and my Wood Badge resume is 4 pages long, and most positions I've held in Scouting are at least 10 years, many over 20, (most simultaneously) at Council, District, Troop, and Pack level).

12 hours ago, skeptic said:

for nonsense.

How does one mix discussions of "safety" with "nonsense?"

My sole adult/parent life has been involved with shepherding my sons through Scouting to Eagle. I have been the lead of my sons' troop and have NEVER heard of convoying issues.

On 5/2/2024 at 6:52 PM, SiouxRanger said:

HOWEVER, in light of the information I've learned on this thread, I have to reexamine the wisdom of convoys.

Following up on this promise to inquire, I spoke with a superbly capable Cub and Troop leader, on Saturday, an electrical engineer for a fortune 50 corporation. A sharp and impressive individual, calm, measured, and balanced in his reaction to everything. Because he is confident in his understanding of circumstances and ability to respond appropriately. A role model to though he is 20 years younger.

Said he'd never heard of an anti convoy policy.

This month's Round Table in my district (no reason given) has been cancelled, but I plan to attend the next in August and present a written questionnaire to determine the level of unit leader awareness of the anti-convoy policy.

And so we shall see, and so I shall report.

12 hours ago, DuctTape said:

I apologize

No need to apologize. You see things others don't yet, but should.

I call that "Vision."

I am intensely interested in the practical steps you see that can be taken in a scout troop setting, given the scarcity of replacement prospects (at this point, I still see those numbers as a limiting condition). Educate me!

I'd dare say that many units (and districts) would find your suggestions helpful.

ABOUT PRACTICAL STEPS: Twenty-five years ago when my first child joined our troop, each parent was given a questionnaire asking about skills, interests, hobbies, equipment (trucks, trailers, etc…) which helped current troop leadership match incoming parents to leadership positions or at least to supportive roles. (Many hands make light work…)

That questionnaire served as a practical means, from an institutional perspective, to develop a database for the identification of folks for future service and to match their interest/skills/equipment to unit needs. Maybe one of the practical means you have in mind.

I come from a professional office of one. So, I have nearly zero experience with organizational personnel dynamics. I guess or theorize. My vision of these matters is like looking through a straw. Not too helpful.

On the other hand, decades ago I suggested to the district executives that if they wanted to monitor "unit health" they should have each unit submit to them, the district executives:

1. An organizational chart (on a pre-printed form with write-in the-boxes-with-names for the essential positions).

2. A calendar for the unit year (showing meetings and outings).

My thinking was that if a unit did not have one or both of those, the essential structure of leadership and program had not been done.

NO RESPONSE.

I tried.

22 hours ago, DuctTape said:

Yep. The finding one's successor is the problem I identified years ago in so many organizations. This doesn't work. It focuses on finding a person.

Instead I believe it is better and more effective to focus on one's replacement's replacement. This requires focusing on the system instead of an individual. People come and go, which is why the "find one's successor" most often fails in the long term. It does not sustain itself, it has a single point of failure. When the focus is on creating a system by which leaders are nurtured, recruited and supported then the system itself generates successors. By focusing on my replacemen't replacement... a person i will never meet, it requires I create and nurture a sytem of leadership development to ... find my replacement's replacement. 

I'm not really following the distinction you see, or how it works in practice.

In our small troop, most willing adults have several troop jobs and there are only a few other adult prospects who are not interested or willing. The result is that there are virtually NO prospects to be one's replacement let alone that replacement's replacement.  The concept of "two deep replacementship" requires 3 willing and capable adults for each unit position. That just has never happened.

I would prefer a "farm system" where the holder of a position has two successors in the wings. The senior replacement handling a little heavier duties than the junior replacement.  Each easing into greater responsibility and "learning the ropes" as they go, but alas, we've never had sufficient adults to implement such a system.

We have never had that luxury at our troop.

Even at district level (where I was District Chairperson and where more adults are active), I had no luck.  Rarely, did individuals just step up and volunteer.

And, the source of a prospective pool of replacements largely depends on the number of crossover cubs (or the occasional youth joining a troop outside the crossover process).

One year, we had 2 or 3 more adults attend troop meetings than scouts (counting adults whose scout had aged out). Yet, several adults who attended every meeting made no effort, nor indicated any interest helping out, and resisted every suggestion of need. Then one of those reluctant adults suddenly took on several major aspects of the program and did a fine job. (Yeah, and I have no reason why).

People are complicated.

7 hours ago, DuctTape said:

I have found that the best philosophy for myself is to build the capacity to  cultivate your replacement's replacement

I came to the realization decades ago that the first step upon assuming a role in Scouting was to start looking for a successor.  I thought that accomplishing that could take several years.

It soon became apparent that my efforts would have scant success in that in a troop of 15 scouts, or so, with two pairs of brothers, leaving 13 pairs of parents as prospects, and subtracting me and the other 3 or 4 parents already active, and subtracting most of the moms who are welcome but show little interest, that left about  8 "eligible/prospective" successors.  Of those maybe one or two had been scouts…who had the time, the interest, the skills…

You get the idea-the pool of prospects was very small.

I'm in my fourth year of "retirement" from being Troop Treasurer, still serving as treasurer…I agreed to stay on for 2 years after my youngest aged out…that was 6 years ago, and no prospects in sight.

I've had no better luck at district level positions.

11 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Why NAM presentations can't be broadcast (live and archived) online to all of us remains a puzzle to me. 

Considering National has all manner of training available on line, the obvious gap are NAM presentations.  Which just happen to be the most current National policy and therefore the most important to disseminate widely.

But Noooooo!  

“Truth, is the most precious thing we have. Economise it.”  --Mark Twain

And well, while awaiting shipping on my soap box, Kelty external frame packs tend to have aluminum frames which are relatively light. And that is fine.  Dana Design pack frames are significantly more solid and heavy. I own both. I'd have carried a Kelty Super Tioga at Philmont if I had not lent it out to a Scout of limited means, and if I were not carrying significant crew safety gear which increased my pack to about 65 lbs.

The Dana Design pack hip belt and fiberglass wand system of transferring load from the frame to the hip belt is simply genius.

On 5/25/2024 at 10:18 AM, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I'm with you! The ventilation and being able to transfer the weight onto the hips is huge. I have two external frame packs and I'm not getting rid of them at any price! My old, smaller pack for my scout, the larger volume one for me. The soft packs were originally for climbers and it made sense for them, but I'm not a climber, I'm a hiker.

I think that you are right.  Internal frame packs were designed for climbers, day or weekend campers/hikers, but not serious cold weather camping (where bulky gear is needed) nor extended hiking (Philmont Treks, anything over 2 or 3 days).

Kelty Tiogas and Super Tiogas are very lightweight and superb external frame packs.

Dana Designs (the old school versions on eBay) are Backpacker Magazine Award winners.  Specifically, the K-2 Long Bed.  There are other versions and virtually any external frame older Dana Designs pack is a gem.  All of them were originally retailed at about $300.  Get the right frame size and hip belt size, both are in regular and large, can be interchanged, and are highly adjustable.

Whew-just sold my soapbox on eBay, so I'll have to shut up.

48 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

From the writing:

"The combination of lap dog boards and control of senior and middle volunteer management positions give the pros an immensely powerful position from which to block reform (and protect their own positions).  It will take a grass roots rebellion or a determined legal attack at the top to actually reform the system nationally.  Small determined groups with strong ethics and strong stomachs can achieve local results but, unless the tide shifts nationally, the system always tries to return to the old status quo."

Precisely and absolutely true.

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

Reputation is the only capital worth acquiring. The same applies to time volunteered reviewing manuscripts for journals.

Without doubt.

For all the rest, one word: "Tufte."

15 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Which means they would have to exceed the legal limit?

I misstated my practices.  If any vehicle fell behind for some reason, I slowed down until all caught up. Convoying as we practiced it was slower than a single vehicle driving at legal limits.  Slowing for others to catch up, however, caused me some concern, as I am not comfortable driving below the speed of other traffic.

5 hours ago, skeptic said:

How often does it need to be said?

More-a lot more.

For over 24 years, I've attended every troop meeting (less 3 or 4), every campout, troop activity, and summer camp (less 3 or 4), attended Roundtables, held District and Council level positions, been Chair of cub summer camps, cub weekend campouts,  and been heavily involved in monthly work days at the local camp, NCAP team member (and I read the entire binder of rules), Wood Badge, etc.

AND UNTIL MY FIRST POST on this topic, I NEVER HEARD of a prohibition on convoying to scouting events.

So, the first senior attorney partner I worked for, when some legal matter got into a "sticky wicket" would look at me and ask, "How did we get into this BOX?"

Truly, yes. Why?

And I ask that question on convoying.

"Why have I, so heavily involved in Scouting, not only with my kids working through the program, but also being a unit leader for Cubs and Scouts, District Chairperson and chair of other District camping events, Council Board Member, NCAP team member, member of Council subcommittees with a number of currently serving scoutmasters, and having spent dozens of lunches with the scoutmaster members of the camp work crew…having taken all the training National suggests/requires me to take…WHY have I not heard of the prohibition on convoying?"

So, I will canvass our troop leaders and ask if they have ever heard of such a prohibition and advise them that they are not to caravan.

Additionally, that they should make sure that each vehicle has a list of cell phone numbers of all the other vehicles headed to the event, so that if a problem arises they can stay in contact and get help.

Additionally, I think it prudent that all vehicles follow the same route.  So, if a vehicle breaks down, it is somewhere ahead, or behind, and easy to get to.  That a vehicle might be 20 miles off the route taken by other vehicles creates chaos.

On 5/3/2024 at 11:50 AM, mrjohns2 said:

Where I have seen it “fail” is when you get on local roads with traffic lights. It can easily split up and cause people to either brake hard or “blow” a light. Not good stuff. 

That is the hard part. Never had that happen.  I had to anticipate light changes and a green light in the distance, well, I'd slow down to make sure we all had to stop.

I am not saying it was easy-it was not.  Very stressful.

Sometimes the light was so short that the whole convoy did not make it through and we'd pull onto the shoulder for the rest to catch up. I'd only do that if very low traffic, etc. If not, then I'd proceed at just at legal limit so folks could catch up.

Well, as to cost, it depends on just how far a scout moves through the program.  Having 3 scouts who earned Eagle and a number of Philmont treks, and having helped numerous other scouts borrow or purchase gear over 20+ years, some truths have appeared:

In a scout's early career, they usually get by with their existing clothes, heavy duty shoes, family camping type sleeping bags, blankets, rain coats, and such.  It is already owned, heavy, bulky, adequate for troop car camping, cabin camping, or situations where in the event of really inclement weather, scouts can resort to the shelter of cabins or vehicles.  They only need to be warm (or cool), dry, fed, etc.

As the scout faces more challenging camping, where better equipment is necessary for comfort or safety, they become aware of the need for better gear:  lighter, more durable, more water resistant/proof, more comfortable, warmer, more wicking, more UV resistant/proof, more wind-resistant, repairable in the field, and so on.  This is where increasing cost comes in.  And those costs can be phased in over a scout's career. Being in the northern half of the country winters are considerably colder than southern climes, there is a pattern of how folks have acquired gear.  And the pattern is quite variable, but some general trends.

First, they tend to purchase better sleeping bags for warmth, better boots, a warmer coat, or rain gear. In all likelihood, none of these will be suitable for a Philmont trek, but they are an improvement.

Second, scouts look to buying a decent pack.  In my experience, a decent pack is the one expense that needs be made only once if done right.

(Warning, big digression:)  I am an external frame person/advocate/fanatic. In my youth, that's all there were for packs of any size adequate to carry a winter's campout worth of gear. They had to be big volume because winter gear is bulky. Kelty was THE pack at the time.  I currently carry a Dana Design K2 Loadmaster. (Dana Designs has other models of likely the same utility.) They are available on eBay from time to time-either well below initial retail or at or above initial retail.  Mine was purchased at retail 20 years ago for $300. I easily carried 65 pounds at Philmont.  (Why that much, is another seminar).  Backpacker pack of the year in 2012±? I like external frame packs because:  I can grab the frame to pick it up to put it on, it holds its shape empty, it leans against a tree neatly, and has better ventilation across the back when worn. I own 3, and folks in my troop have purchased another 4.

Since all those years ago, internal frame packs have progressed a great deal.

At the end of the day, I choosing a backpack, first, it has to fit the body of the Scout, that is, length of torso (and the more adjustable the pack is for the Scout's growth, the better). Second, it has to have the volume to carry the gear needed.  Winter gear is BULKY-needs more volume. Third, it has to be comfortable. (Fourth, you'll need a rain cover for it. I do not rely on a "waterproof pack." I want a waterproof rain cover-which I can use to cover myself, if necessary.)

Also, perhaps a tent, if the troop does not provide them.  

Third, senior scouts headed to Philmont or another high adventure experience may well replace a good deal of all their prior gear.  Generally looking to reduce weight.

As a scout progresses to more challenging adventures, they not only begin to recognize the limitations of their lower-grade gear, but also recognize the necessity of better gear.

The good news is that by the time scouts get to that point, they are heavily involved in the program, the adventure, and it is clear that the expense is justified.

4 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

since this leader is not counseling any "restricted" MBs

What would "restricted" merit badges be?

Thanks.

And I will just have add:

When things go really bad in the outback, and your life depends on it (the news has stories weekly of folks who have died), having MASTERY of a skill is potentially lifesaving. And if not saving your life, will make a stressful situation more comfortable.

Louis Pasteur's quote "Chance favors the prepared mind" means that the better prepared and more knowledgeable you are, the more you'll be able to take advantage of any chance opportunities or observations.

Once, headed into a federal wilderness in winter time, the rangers, after looking at our gear said we passed and could go in. Knowing the difficult decisions rescuers faced in crisis, I told him, if a crisis, come look for us last. We will be OK.

(Well, and not knowing the future crisis, maybe that doomed us, but we were confident of our skills.)

And, many times merely having confidence in one's ability, allows one emotionally to continue on to solve an unknown crisis, that without that confidence would have caused them to hesitate and be lost.

THAT is what Scouting did for me.