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Posts posted by 1980Scouter

  1. 8 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

    No idea.  Heard rumors the judge is waiting to hear appeals court ruling on Purdue.  If that isn't the case, it doesn't make sense.  I wonder if she has everything ready except the third party releases.

    If that is the case, how long will that take? The BSA will most likely be out of money by then.

    Why not a status conference and explain the reason for the delay. Maybe BSA would change the plan to BSA only to get this finished faster.

    There are serious doubts about third party releases and not the best idea to include them.

  2. 6 hours ago, gpurlee said:

    In our council, UMC represents closer to 30% of both membership and total units. Our council is clearly reluctant to endorse the affiliate model. Their stated concerns are a lack of professional staff to oversee the process, increased costs such as accounting and auditing and a very undermanned commissioner staff to visit and monitor units.  The national guidance apparently indicates that it should be volunteers who approve leadership, ensure youth protection is in place and fulfill the other duties of a chartered organization. Their strong preference appears to be that UMC affiliated units seek alternative chartered organizations. Unfortunately, the council seems to be willing to walk away from more than a one-hundred-year partnership at this point despite urgings from the national council. If the affiliate model is forced upon them, council leadership has suggested that the "council units" may be assessed a (significant) fee to cover the additional expense to the council. 

    Given the loss of many of the evangelical churches, the LDS Church, most schools, the Elks, several Roman Catholic churches (at least in our area) among others, one has to wonder how many chartered organizations remain willing and available to sponsor Scouting if the UMC is no longer a significant sponsor?


    I think this next round of rechartering will really tell us the future of the BSA and if it will be able to get through this. 

    As others stated definitely too many councils. If you have less than 5,000 scouts a merger should take place.

    Most of these small councils are hurting financially so I feel it is just a matter of time before a merger happens. In my experience money or lack of it drives mergers.

  3. Why do we need a National Council? It takes so much money and you do not see much at the local level.

    Replace it with a board of SE from each council who make and vote on standards. That is really all that matters is minimum standards across the county. With technology meetings could be zoom with a yearly in person. 

    Have separate sub committees for projects. All LC would have a say in the BSA and its future.

    HAB could be turned over to LC or form a separate non profit for each. They make money and can be self sustained. 

    We could make Scouting much more affordable for all.


    • Upvote 2
  4. I think as everyone knows there are issues with the plan. LC and CO releases being the most important. 

    Also many other details, non settling insurers,  CO'S not on board. 

    My question is what is going on behind closed doors at the National office? They have to be really worried that this plan could fail and the BSA would too.

    • Upvote 2
  5. 1 hour ago, SiouxRanger said:

    So, 3 Omnibus hearings set through 10-27-2022.

    What does this mean?  Perhaps no final ruling expected until or after 10-27-2022?

    My understanding of "omnibus" is that everything that any party wants to raise can be noticed up for hearing. Why would three omnibus hearings be set up front when perhaps all issues will be resolved at the first omnibus hearing?

    Perhaps the judge envisions an iterative process whee issues are raised at one hearing, followed by private negotiations, progress or lack thereof reported at the second hearing, and so on.

    Perhaps the Judge will announce a preliminary ruling, and seek comments from the parties, all perhaps to spur further negotiations amongst the parties.

    One would think that ONE omnibus hearing would be sufficient, or one omnibus hearing setting, being continued to other dates as needed, but to dates following close on the initial setting-not with evenly spaced month gaps.

    That there are three omnibus hearings spaced out over three months, considering the cash drain on National, seems rather strange to me.

    Could national survive until the end of the year? There will be rechartering money but if this drags on with more legal negotiations the legal fees will be huge.

    I would think whatever is to happen in the ruling, sooner is best to let it be known. Even if rejection at least they can attempt to make changes and get something that works.

    Obviously the plan will not be approved without changes to the plan or it would have been approved by now.

  6. I see many LC's are posting 2021 annual reports lately on their web sites. You have to really search to find them.

    Comparing maybe 5-6 years ago, my LC went from 15,000 to 6,500 scouts. 

    What are other councils showing? Also spending is down a lot from prior years.

  7. On 6/24/2022 at 2:34 PM, Eagle1993 said:

    It goes to the Girl Scout model.  There should be ownership of units.  Most charters do not have the capacity or desire to actually own the units.  Therefore, it should fall on the BSA through councils.  

    Councils could ensure oversight by interviewing unit leaders (the CC & SM/CM).  Ensuring they are trained for their position.  Then allowing them to run the show with the rest of the leaders (checking on YPT).  Perhaps councils limit units based on area.  Perhaps they even have to limit # of scouts per unit if they grow too large vs the number of trained leaders they have.  

    UMC & Elks are the start.  I wouldn't be surprised to see Catholic charters follow.  BSA will need a model on how to own units.

    So the Elks are not doing charters anymore? I used to be a member of a Lodge that had an active troop.


  8. 12 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

    Agree everyone deserves safe drinking water, but what is safe "adequate", what is being tested, and where - campsite, camp kitchen,...

    The EPA does not regulate private wells, so I would be surprised if the EPA fined camps over drinking water quality.  Regulation and enforcement  is left to state and local authorities or self-policing camp associations.

    Nothing to stop a scouter from drawing a water sample and having it tested by a private lab. Testing for bacteria and E.coli might be less than $100, radon and arsenic a little more, and testing for PFAS would likely be $400.


    The Ohio EPA where I live does regulate any water supply over 25 people. This includes scout camps.

    My LC camp has been fined thousands for failure to sample. And the wastewater system is in significant noncompliance. 

    They are working on fixing wastewater but I think it will take a fine to get it done.

    The camp is Beaumont Scout Reservation. Nice camp but poor water and wastewater.

    • Thanks 1
  9. What is everyone's experience with your LC scout camp and EPA compliance with water and wastewater standards? I have multiple LC camps in significant non-compliance,  some were recently fined large amounts of money.

    It appears at least in my state that the LC's ignore water standards even failing to collect required samples.

    Scouts deserve safe drinking water and LC's should be held accountable. 


  10. I think the judge is trying to determine a plan that will stand up to appeals. I feel that the plan will be BSA only, with LC  and  CO to be decided locally. There is no way this plan will pass appeals with third party releases. The judge is taking all this in from other similar cases and realizing this may be the most important case of her career. 


    • Upvote 3
  11. Are LC's in your area communicating what is going on with bankruptcy and scouts being abused in your council to new parents and prospective scouts?

    I feel like LC's in my area are not. I would like to raise awareness to protect future scouts. I know YPT will get better in the future but now parents need to know their child may not be safe in the present BSA. 

    Thinking of renting billboards by the council office and camp highlighting the amount of abuse cases and need to be cautious. 

  12. 1 hour ago, MYCVAStory said:

    From the TCCBSA.COM website:

    The TCC will be holding a Town Hall on Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 8 pm (Eastern) to discuss the latest developments in the BSA bankruptcy.  Zoom link: https://pszjlaw.zoom.us/j/82272826295 (no registration required)  or by phone: 888-788-0099 (toll free), Webinar ID: 822 7282 6295

    I hope they discuss the reasoning behind not demanding LC's contribute more to the fund. That was a big item for them for a long time.

  13. While definite progress as been made which is good. There are still too many objections to the current plan. 

    While it is impossible to get all on board I think there are still key players with objections. 

    I think a late summer date for this to be settled is optimistic. It will likely be much longer.

    One other issue is CO's and their future with BSA. If they lose catholic and other CO's this would likely end the program. No protection for CO's not contributing is the surest way to do this. I think this is where LC's could step in and fund releases. They are truly who is responsible for oversight of CO's and did not do their job. I struggle to see why any CO would take the risk in the future to sponsor a unit. Even if it is a core part of their ministry the risks are too great.

  14. There are so many other activities for kids today. Let's take youth hockey as an example.  Until the 1980's there were no arenas in my area. Now there are multiple and it is popular. Same for sking and ski club. 

    We have to realize there are many other activities for kids available and scouting does not look as exciting as it once did.

    You add increased fees and loss of local camps and it makes things even worse.

    I think the death blow to scouting will be financial and not from bankruptcy but from decreased numbers and increased costs.

    • Upvote 1
  15. 7 hours ago, fred8033 said:

    When I read this, I think about a single insurance company paying out twice for the same incident.  I can't see an insurance company paying out a portion for a BSA claim.  Then, later paying a separate portion for a LC claim.  And, a separate portion for a CO claim.  ... My understanding ... and this is what I'd like to understand ... before the insurance company pays anything to cover a list of incidents, that payment would have to cover the incident as a whole; not just the portion owed by one party.  

    Are we in a multi-billion dollar game of chicken right now?  No one can afford never reaching an agreement.  Not BSA.  Not the LCs.  Not the COs.  Not the victims.  Not the victim's lawyers.  As sick as it sounds, the only parties that may do better if an agreement can't be reached seems to be BSA and the insurance companies.  BSA because it could go thru a BSA-only bankruptcy.  Insurance companies because they can push out, delay and fight liability.   

    The lawyers win too the longer the case goes on. 

    • Upvote 1
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