1980Scouter

I think for BSA to survive, they need to get an agreement with the TCC. This likely will require a large increase in contributions by LC's. If this happens I could see a path forward. 

If they do not get an agreement this will become a court fight until Chapter 7 comes knocking. And then LC's are in the same boat a few years later.

There have to be program changes as others have suggested to make scouting safer and more up to date. Otherwise abuse lawsuits will occur, but at a smaller rate in the future. This will be the death of BSA. 

I would like to take a poll of the posters here. Will the BSA survive bankruptcy and all the other factors at play (ie covid,funding issues,etc. )?

What do you think will happen and how long will BSA last? Or will they get through this and thrive in the future?

On 1/30/2022 at 7:56 PM, fred8033 said:

If you got two, you could put them together and have a double wide council office!!!! For $2000 what a deal!!!!!

Miami Valley Council (ohio) announced the sale of Woodland Trails Scout Reservation in Nov 2021. It is an 1,000 acre camp that was their summer camp. They sold off another 1,000 acres from WT about 20 years ago to the state.

Now they have to rely on neighboring councils for summer camp. This is a small council that I see a merger in their future.

2 hours ago, fred8033 said:

My personal opinion. 

The time of small or medium sized councils is past.  Youth scouting is face-to-face.  Council scouting is administrative and benefits from efficiencies of size.  Times have drastically changed.  Physical infrastructure has always costed money.  Now, technical infrastructure requires skill and cost but gets drastically cheaper as it scales out.  Plus, scouters don't need to drive into the council office for almost anything anymore.  Recharter online.  Buy advancements online.  Get trained online.  Attend RT virtually.   

Except for massive states where it is a 10 hour drive edge-to-edge, I see little reason to have more than one council a state.  

One thing that might help is to leverage the camps for scouter training for scouters that are far-away from the local council.  I'm always confused why scout offices are not located at the camps.  I've assumed it's from the days of driving in; hitting the scout shop and needing a physical presence to be seen by the donors. 

I have said locate scout offices at camps for years. Better camp use, save money and most things can be done electronically or remotely. 

Really this could save Scouting so much money that LC's could survive. 

Has anyone heard of their LC SE taking a pay cut due to council finances being the bad shape?

Many councils are struggling currently due to all the factors discussed on these boards. It would make sense since the SE is paid so much.

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

One point that keeps coming up in the bankruptcy is BSA's financial situation.  BSA lawyers have recently stated they may need to start selling assets (oil leases, art work, etc.) to keep going.  These threats have been made from time to time.

I took a look at the financials posted since the beginning of bankruptcy and below is the total net unrestricted liquidity BSA lists. 

So, when will BSA run into trouble.

• $66M of these assets appear to be retirement benefits that are invested.  While unrestricted, I don't think BSA can really touch those to keep operating.
• I believe BSA is saying they need at least $30M to operate.  That probably allows them to deal with the cash flow changes during the year.
• So, lets assume BSA does not want to drop below $100M of net liquidity and if they do, they would need to look at selling assets to build up their liquidity.  

One pattern I have seen is that BSA liquidity is fairly stable between August and May and drops substantially between May and August.

See below in terms of asset changes ($M).  As you can see, $77M of loss between May and August of 2020 and 2021 and $15M of loss for the other 12 months since bankruptcy.  

 

Feb 2020 - May 2020	1
May 2020 - August 2020	-44
August 2020 - May 2021	-16
May 2021 - August 2021	-33

So ... based on this, when will BSA hit that $100M limit?

Well ... they were at $142M in August 2021.  Let's assume they lose that $16M again so May 2022 they will be at $126M.  After that ... BSA starts running into trouble.  Why?  Those next three months BSA will see major negative cash flow.  If 2022 is similar to 2021, they would end up in August 2022 at ~$94M ($66M of that is retirement).

My guess ... if BSA does not see a clear line of site of bankruptcy exit by ~June ... they will need to start selling some assets.  

 

 

 

I wonder if they would not ask LC's to contribute funds to keep BSA operating.  If National goes away, LC's are in a difficult situation. 

If they need another year to get through this, have LC's kick in just enough to keep them going. LC's (most) have the money.

I really think a BSA only bankruptcy with LC's given the option of being included at a much higher contribution or to opt out and take their chances has the best chance of passing LC's vote.

That way the LC controls their own destiny.

49 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Almost no change to the direct abuse claim vote.  There were some minor changes on opt out number.  Also, BSA may object to some master ballots based on their questions about proper power of attorney paperwork.   However, the master ballots themselves passed review and were accepted.  
 

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/ea7975fa-08bb-4e03-b739-96a7062815a0_8345.pdf

That is progress. Now the ball is fully in the judges court. Time to make decisions and get this case moving forward. 

12 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

Your comment has just enabled my connecting some comments I've heard from professionals and knowledgeable volunteers over the last few years..

The volunteers and some professionals recognize that enhanced program draws more youth to Scouting.  They bring their parents, and grandparents to Courts of Honor and Friends Of Scouting presentations.  More FOS contributions are realized and with more youth on the membership roles, the stronger the claim for United Way more monies.

On the other hand the professionals are targeting large contributions from few major donors.  To those donors, the argument is as above:  "we cannot serve the members, or advocate for cause 'xyx' without $." 

The major difference is that when pursuing large donors, no showing of effective or attractive program is necessary. The fundraising pitch to large donors sidesteps the existence or desirability of effective and attractive program, and high youth membership numbers.

And therein lies the reason why professionals care little about program other than providing ("tolerating") uninspired program: attractive program lays ("lies"?-I can't figure it out) not on the path to riches and is irrelevant..

In my council, carving knives and chisels for Woodcarving MB are dull or broken-kids can't carve.  A volunteer was called before the SECOND week of camp to come sharpen about 80 tools.  Rifles with no repair parts, so fewer can shoot.  Platform tent frames damaged so fewer tents per campsite.  And it just looks neglected.  Just so many things that could be repaired, or procured to enhance the summer camp experience are neglected by professional staff.  Summer camp fees continue to rise-beyond those of camps with a ton more amenities. Our camp attendance is down by over a third and cut from 6 to 4 weeks of camp.

Here lies the problem. Summer camp is supposed to be the highlight of a scouts year and if the camp facilities are broken down not so much.

Many of the items you mentioned being broken are not high dollar items and there is no reason for disrepair.

It is about the details. Why does someone not go through all equipment over the winter and order supplies/parts?

I agree 100% that good program will make scouting strong and get donations.

One last thing,  my LC does a camp donation drive for small project funding. They raise about $ 50k for each camp yearly. They put on the web site that you also agree to support FOS in addition to camp needs. It is in bold face print.

How much FOS goes to camp vs professional salaries? They truly care more about staff salaries. 

Are there still a lot of units in limbo on charters?

1 hour ago, vol_scouter said:

I am assuming that CE means Council Executive by which folks mean the Scout Executive.  If my assumption is not correct, please let me know.  
 

Sometimes a Scout Executive comes to a local council and does well earning pay increases.  Also, it is customary for a SE who goes to another council will get a raise of about 15% if my memory serves me well.  Some SE’s are good managers, some good at program, and some good at development (fund raising). Few are truly expert in all three.  Also, each council has unique politics, history, and individuals.  A SE can do well in councils and move up to larger councils but might find that the Peter Principle makes them  less effective at some point in time.  That can lead to less desirable situations at some point in time.  Those SE’s seem overpaid though they may have been worth their pay before.  A very few are not so good.  Not unlike large businesses.  
 

The wealth that the TCC is not in many, if any, councils.  

For wealth, I will use my LC. They are contributing 6 million currently. They have 20 million in assets.  Some are restricted.  But at least 13 million is not. So they could give a lot more. It would likely require selling a camp but they have two nice ones.

If they lose the council office and a camp in addition to most of their endowment they still exist and have a camp and can continue on with liability released. By the way they have over 400 claims against them.

This is what it will take in my opinion to get the plan passed. They survive in the end but with less assets. 

2 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

Pretty sure my council is a 100 level, assuming that is the larger ones.  SE base compensation is maybe $362K and total compensation is $622K.  That's a bunch.  4 others over $100K

Also the council now has 68 staff, but only 16 appear to be directly working with districts or Scouts (DE types).  

• 16 DE types
• 12 Program specialists / Scoutreach
• 9 Development staff
• 4 Middle Management
• 4 Camp rangers
• 13 Admin
• 3 Executive
• 7 Marketing

Really nice office that seems to be about 25% of the budget.  They continue to run the operation like a business in the 80's.  Top down management, very structured.  There was an issue at summer camp, the exec team was on a call, then they had another call, then they asked the camp director what he wanted to do, then they deferred and sort of left it open.  Nobody wants to make a decision, classic corporate problem solving.  That is they don't actually solve it and put their name on a solution.

No real leadership.  The council advice and direction during covid was nothing.  Massive marketing staff and not sure what they may actually be doing.

They continue to be successful at raising money, but their support for troops is non-existent.  They seem to be able to play on the memory and cache of the BSA and not showing what the current state of affairs may be.  Hardest information to find is how many youth are being served in actual units.  With the recent (and ongoing) rift with the UMC there has been no direction or input from the council.  Cast of many and cares of none

Wow and I thought my medium sized council was excessive at 250k for scout exec. and about 40 FT staff  (30 FT now). 

I agree councils are hiding the true enrollment number currently.  Many websites say data from 3-4 years ago before a 50-60% membership drop.

I never paid much attention to council finances and salaries until the bankruptcy and my LC sold a camp I cared for.

I could not believe what the SE salary and benefits cost my council. And for a medium sized council to have 40 FTE's and to spend over 3 million on wages seemed crazy to me.

Maybe bankruptcy will result in streamlined LC costs and more focus on program. I know many councils survived off of investment earnings of large endowments. If they go away in bankruptcy they will have to really decide what is necessary staff wise.

If LC's would lose their office buildings in bankruptcy I think that could work out better than losing as many camps. With technology today most can work remotely with little issues. Make a building at camp into an office/store and you get better camp use too. I don't think it matters much if camps with the new offices are outside of the center of the council either. Many things can be done electronically or via Fed Ex. Have someone in the office on weekends at camp too.

3 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Or they have no liability, and stay in it to ride the gravy train of a $200K+ salary until the end...

My thoughts exactly.  The SE's and other high up national execs have to realize the ship is likely sinking now. Especially after this next hearing if it goes as thought. 

They are paid very well for their job.(at the expense of camp maintenance and other needs but that is another whole thread)

Why not get everything you can out of BSA and then find another less paying job when BSA dies? 

Most execs have decades of service to BSA and have moved around over time to get where they are now. 

The old guard will ride off into the sunset....

42 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I'm not sure we will see a single council fund going forward.  Perhaps TCC was hinting at that, but the issue of bankruptcy law keeps coming up.  I've seen several question how you can pay claimants from one council with money from a different council.  So, perhaps, we may see a council by council payout and if a council pays out that money goes to claimants from that council.  Then votes of those claimants would have to pass.  If a council doesn't pay out, they will have their own liability going forward.

Perhaps the same could be applied to COs.

This is a very good fair way to do things on the LC level. Each council decides and pays for their liability. Better chance of passing local boards if the payouts stay within the council.

The BSA is going to have to be firm with local councils on any increased contribution.  Many will likely fight it to the end.

Getting them all on board not an easy task at all. If you look at if the SOL  current cases are brought against LC, most will pay out a lot more.

So it seems like no brainer to me. You survive with less assets and maybe only one camp, but you get to continue on.

So I think at this point the BSA needs to ask one simple question.

What will it take to get a plan passed and survive as an organization?

Ask the TCC, DOJ, churches and all other hold outs. It will take an open checkbook for more money from LC and insurance companies for sure.

Or do we continue to fight in court until we run out of money.

73% is a solid D grade in school. Is a D good enough? I was surprised it is this high.

Has anyone heard anything from their LC expressing concern if the vote fails and the plan falls apart? 

I am sure SE talk amongst themselves and realize a failed plan would open up LC to lawsuits depending on state law windows.

How worried are LC's? The ones around me do not show it if they are.

58 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

This is only tangentially germane and doesn’t contain any legalese, so it may belong elsewhere.

My Eagle certificate just turned 46. He still looks MAH-VELOUS, thank you very much! (Nod to Billy C.) A framed piece of paper containing a few words and icons. I know what it means. Simple, though complicated by the mine field I navigated to capture that particular flag. It represents parts of me that went into “creating” it, taken not given. Other Eagles didn’t have those requirements, thank God. A dark price that is not footnoted other than in my heart and mind. That paper is a deeply personal memento. I’m conflicted when I look at it. There is a significance other people can’t understand. Looking at it has always been bittersweet. Amid the blood and sweat, it surely has tear stains which are not visible to the naked eye nor considered by the casual observer.

Contrast that with the reams of documents, some stacked and some in binders, that comprise human efforts to explain this case. Note especially the 140+/- pages that are my Proof of Claim, with amendments and exhibits. All told, innumerable words on God knows how many pages representing warring factions’ efforts to get and/or protect money, while abused Scouts languish. On most days, I don’t know what the bulk of those words mean and can’t find my compass. There is no observation tower in sight from which I could get a bearing. If sentient, what would my Eagle certificate make of all this?

I took my eagle certificate off the wall when this bankruptcy started and all the shady things BSA has done over the years to hide issues came out.

No longer proud to display it. Then during bankruptcy my LC sold a camp I put a lot of effort in to and loved very much. 

I had a friend's of scouting framed picture on the wall, to the trash it went. I still have good memories of scouting as a scout and leader but do not feel support for National or LC.

I think this bankruptcy will drag on for a least another year or until the BSA runs out of money and does a chapter 7.

I wonder if they will ask LC to contribute to their defense and operating funds to keep the BSA operating longer.

I would like to add all who have been following this case closely have their ideas where this is going and that is good as there are many different options. 

In the end this case could go anywhere. It could be dismissed, approved as submitted or anything in between. It is sad that it took two years to get where we are now. The longer it drags on the worse for the future of the BSA.

If I only had a time machine, I could be the hero of this forum.

1 hour ago, vol_scouter said:

It is very doubtful that the assets of the independent local councils would ever go to national.  Our council would not agree to that and our state's attorney general will fight the transfer of any council's assets within our state.  We could pivot to a youth service organization and continue a youth service mission.

The way in which you wrote the above sounds like the court is fighting the BSA which is not the case.  The court should be committed to preserving the BSA while adjudicating the bankruptcy and the judge has said that in her comments.

The state court lawsuits will drag on for many more years and many claimants will see nothing as most are statute of limitation barred.

There is not $10 B in assets in the whole of the BSA Scouting.  

I respect your dedication to BSA but you have to realize that for a plan to be approved every entity has to be all in. This includes money and future youth protection.  

We are not there now and it will take all entities increasing their contribution and youth protection changes to satisfy the TCC and others. 

This could occur and BSA could go on their merry way. But this is a very complicated case with so many objections by many. 

I agree that a BSA only may be the way to go. Get maximum from BSA and insurance including some HA bases. Then go after LC on a council by council basis. This would likely settle national BSA much faster.

You are correct in some LC do not have much more to contribute, but most do have a lot more they could contribute.