1980Scouter

73% is a solid D grade in school. Is a D good enough? I was surprised it is this high.

Has anyone heard anything from their LC expressing concern if the vote fails and the plan falls apart? 

I am sure SE talk amongst themselves and realize a failed plan would open up LC to lawsuits depending on state law windows.

How worried are LC's? The ones around me do not show it if they are.

58 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

This is only tangentially germane and doesn’t contain any legalese, so it may belong elsewhere.

My Eagle certificate just turned 46. He still looks MAH-VELOUS, thank you very much! (Nod to Billy C.) A framed piece of paper containing a few words and icons. I know what it means. Simple, though complicated by the mine field I navigated to capture that particular flag. It represents parts of me that went into “creating” it, taken not given. Other Eagles didn’t have those requirements, thank God. A dark price that is not footnoted other than in my heart and mind. That paper is a deeply personal memento. I’m conflicted when I look at it. There is a significance other people can’t understand. Looking at it has always been bittersweet. Amid the blood and sweat, it surely has tear stains which are not visible to the naked eye nor considered by the casual observer.

Contrast that with the reams of documents, some stacked and some in binders, that comprise human efforts to explain this case. Note especially the 140+/- pages that are my Proof of Claim, with amendments and exhibits. All told, innumerable words on God knows how many pages representing warring factions’ efforts to get and/or protect money, while abused Scouts languish. On most days, I don’t know what the bulk of those words mean and can’t find my compass. There is no observation tower in sight from which I could get a bearing. If sentient, what would my Eagle certificate make of all this?

I took my eagle certificate off the wall when this bankruptcy started and all the shady things BSA has done over the years to hide issues came out.

No longer proud to display it. Then during bankruptcy my LC sold a camp I put a lot of effort in to and loved very much. 

I had a friend's of scouting framed picture on the wall, to the trash it went. I still have good memories of scouting as a scout and leader but do not feel support for National or LC.

I think this bankruptcy will drag on for a least another year or until the BSA runs out of money and does a chapter 7.

I wonder if they will ask LC to contribute to their defense and operating funds to keep the BSA operating longer.

I would like to add all who have been following this case closely have their ideas where this is going and that is good as there are many different options. 

In the end this case could go anywhere. It could be dismissed, approved as submitted or anything in between. It is sad that it took two years to get where we are now. The longer it drags on the worse for the future of the BSA.

If I only had a time machine, I could be the hero of this forum.

1 hour ago, vol_scouter said:

It is very doubtful that the assets of the independent local councils would ever go to national.  Our council would not agree to that and our state's attorney general will fight the transfer of any council's assets within our state.  We could pivot to a youth service organization and continue a youth service mission.

The way in which you wrote the above sounds like the court is fighting the BSA which is not the case.  The court should be committed to preserving the BSA while adjudicating the bankruptcy and the judge has said that in her comments.

The state court lawsuits will drag on for many more years and many claimants will see nothing as most are statute of limitation barred.

There is not $10 B in assets in the whole of the BSA Scouting.  

I respect your dedication to BSA but you have to realize that for a plan to be approved every entity has to be all in. This includes money and future youth protection.  

We are not there now and it will take all entities increasing their contribution and youth protection changes to satisfy the TCC and others. 

This could occur and BSA could go on their merry way. But this is a very complicated case with so many objections by many. 

I agree that a BSA only may be the way to go. Get maximum from BSA and insurance including some HA bases. Then go after LC on a council by council basis. This would likely settle national BSA much faster.

You are correct in some LC do not have much more to contribute, but most do have a lot more they could contribute. 

6 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

I have been browsing thru the TCC's Local Council analysis and I am amazed at the differences of % of contribution from unrestricted assets from council to council.  Some give very little compared to what they have and some give a lot more and that can be within the same state.

I think this is where number of claims comes into play. The formula included this. I have noticed the same in my state.

Although not necessarily fair, maybe the councils with fewer claims and large reserves could agree to contribute the same percentage  amount to get the LC contribution up to a level that would pass the vote.

They may have to do this to save Scouting for the future. As Eagle 1993 said just one LC lawsuit would cost more than many LC's are contributing if the circumstances were right.

17 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

That will likely not fly at all.  My council is a medium sized council who lost about 50% of its members through covid and chapter 11 PR.  This sum would be devastating.  We would likely fight in court and/or file chapter 11.  There just is not the money out there that the TCC says.

The LC's are going to have to contribute more for any plan to be approved.  They have two choices,  either pay the victims or pay the attorneys defending them.

The money will go to one of the two groups of people. 

9 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Ok ... a bit odd but would be good to see what others think.

$100M ... based on payments above, ignoring everything else.  

BSA's current business plan page 376 below

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/2e1a8c44-7812-46a0-8a93-5aa5621dc7b2_6431.pdf

says they hit 1,010,000 scouts by 2025 and projects 5.5% growth rate after.  So, it would take until 2034 to exceed 1,500,000 scouts.  If everything works out, this $100M offer is really the following:

$2.5M offer in 2034

$5.4M in 2035

$8.5M in 2036

This is per the BSA plan.  Now, if BSA grows a lot more, sure, this could hit $100M.  But per BSA's current plans, that $100M would only hit $16M and in the mid 2030s.

Thank you Eagle1993 for the update posts. I feel like this is phantom math.  It would take very favorable membership growth to reach the 100 million.

I just do not see that happening. This is one issue with the whole case, it is about the details. While 100 million looks good on the surface, when the details are explored not so much.

If the LC's raise their offer by the $800 million the insurance is adding I would say this is real and could work. But 40 million is a token. 

Even at 800 million, it is only ~3 million per council. Very affordable for them. Some would do more, some less based on the factors established. 

Are we still on track for the TCC to release all the LC dashboards that will tell what they think is fair contribution by LC's?

This could be a game changer if they can get the word out that you can get a significant increase from LC's as they have the assets if you back a TCC plan.

The insurance settlements are peanuts of what they should be and I think people will see that. TCC I am sure has an insurance amount in mind that is significantly higher than offered. 

So we have heard about the Methodists response to rechartering. What are the Catholics, Baptists and others doing about recharter?

There are many units in these churches that have to realize the issue at hand. 

Protection of church assets would be front and center for these churches. 

21 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Define “failure”.

Guys like me will still take boys camping. There is a body of literature that will enable us to do so well into the future.

There are people/entities who will let us camp on their land.

We will rely on our state’s mandatory background checks, maybe.

Failure is Scouts BSA not surviving.  A guy taking a group of kids camping is a success is my opinion.  That is one of the founding BSA principles. 

One thing I forgot to add is the only winners so far have been the attorneys getting paid very well.

Now that we are almost two years into the bankruptcy process, I thought I would poll all the regular posters and get their opinions if the BSA will survive this.

All the ups and downs in this case have made for exciting reading at times. My feeling is that BSA will survive bankruptcy with little cash, very limited property and low membership only to fail a few years down the road.

There are so many factors working against them.

1) High fees

2) Loss of CO

3)Society changing.

4)Large paid staff overhead.

5)Negative media PR

6)Future abuse cases-this is a big one in my opinion as there will still be cases but hopefully few.

7)Sexual abuse law changes-in favor of victims. 

8)Abilty to find enough leaders.

9)Loss of large financial donations

10) Camp losses will enrage camp supporters who will leave the organization. 

11)Infighting within councils, this is often overlooked but there are always disgruntled leaders and volunteers with the direction scouting is taking.

12) Loss of most LC endowments. Many councils are surviving off interest and investment earnings. 

There are many more things working against the BSA and it would be a surprise if they survive long term.

My LC just raised camp fees at all camps 150% for weekend camp use. Trying to make up lost money. $200 for a 12 person cabin for the weekend. 

Who funds this forum? I would like to thank them for allowing information to be shared about the bankruptcy and scouting in general. 

With national and LC'S communication lacking, this forum is a big asset. 

Did anybody listen in on the hearing yesterday? I viewed the agenda and it did not seem like any earth changing things were scheduled. 

4 hours ago, MYCVAStory said:

At the last Town Hall meeting the comment was made that the focus is on the current plan since THAT is what's being voted on.  If I were the TCC I'd let that mess of a plan take a bit of a beating for a while before releasing all or parts of their plan.  Stay down in the fox hole until the time is right to attack!  That said, maybe some will be discussed Thiursday at the next Town Hall?

I would think it better to release a planner sooner before people start voting showing that compensation could be much improved in the TCC plan. 

That will show it is possible for LC's to contribute significantly more, as well as other sources too.

So we could see the TCC plan maybe today for their vision of how contributions would be under their plan.

This could be a game changer for bankruptcy. 

8 minutes ago, malraux said:

To the extent that it matters to units right now, its about the UMC and others hesitating on recharter. At my LC they are slowly dropping DEs and other staff. Only about half the districts have a staff person at this point, one camp has no staff, etc. Without recruitment I dunno if the council will survive to the end of bankruptcy.

If it is that bad, most likely not. I think there will be ALOT of council mergers before this is over. Many were not in good shape before this mess.

I think LC's are starting to realize the vote may not go in their favor. My LC's is doing a second round of staff downsizing. 

You can hear the desperation in some of their media posts. Like doing everything to recruit and making sure to say "everything is good with scouting to parents."

I wonder if units are doing this or being honest.

4 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

The Chief Cornplanter Council (PA) will pay their total trust contribution $260,931.32 from timber sales. No council property, which is totallly assessed at $196,204, will be sold.

Source:

https://www.timesobserver.com/news/local-news/2021/10/local-bsa-council-wont-have-to-sell-properties-in-bankruptcy-case/

That has to be a typo on land values. That would be extremely cheap land.

With all the camps being sold during bankruptcy and before, this is a big thank you to all who helped maintain them over the years and donated money for them. 

The camps would not exist in the first place without donations of money or land by people who believed in scouting. Then often, especially in later  years maintenance was done by a dedicated group of volunteers who cared for the camp. They may have been scouts or parents attending a camp and decided to give back. 

At least many camps in my area did not have full time rangers after the mid 90's. So the role of volunteers increased greatly. They often donated supplies to repair things or got suppliers to give the camp really good deals in items. 

I think this is one of the overlooked things in bankruptcy that so many people put their heart and soul into these camps.

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

When I think on this, I can honestly say we don't really need our local council.  Everything they provide us could be done (and in most cases, actually already is being provided) through National functions (policy, materials (books and uniforms), standardized training) and local volunteers (local training courses and events).

Could anyone else here live without their local council?  With the technologies we have now, could they go away without a great deal of impact to Scouting?  I think so....and so, BSA toggle?

 

I agree 100% scouting has become like the federal and state governments.  Why do we need both national and local councils? 

This is like government in that they have federal agencies and states have the exact same agencies.  Ie federal EPA, state EPA. 

I would say keep LC's but reduce the number to 2-3 per state. Eliminate national and replace it with a board that makes standards. That is all that is really needed is standards. Turn over HAB's to the LC in that area.

We could save hundreds of millions yearly with this change. People seem to like semi-local control and this would be it.