ThenNow

2 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

 Hopefully Judge Laura Silverstein will require more clarity and empowerment.

Looking down the menu of the many potential issues she's wrangling, I don't see this one listed as so much as a footnote. I went back and scoured the fine print between the warnings about "undercooked fish," nut allergies, GF and VE items, and wine during pregnancy. Nary a word. Not on her radar. 

What is your proposal (or hope) for "clarity and empowerment,"  as to survivor members of the YPC? I don't want to presume. 

17 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Has the plan furthered specified the responsibilities, composition, and transparency of  the Youth Protection Committee? How many female abuse victims (Venture Crews, Explorer Posts...) will be on the YPC?

The only description and directives are as noted below. BSA CSA survivor members are apparently TBD. Per the SWG member's testimony, one of their members is a woman. 

2)    On or as soon as practicable following the Effective Date, form a Youth Protection Committee (“YPC”): The BSA shall form a committee including members from the BSA, Local Councils, Chartered Organizations, and nominees of the Tort Claimants’ Committee, and nominees of the Survivors Working Group. Assuming there are a sufficient numbers willing to serve on the YPC, members nominated by the Tort Claimants’ Committee and the Survivors Working Group shall be in equal numbers, respectively, and shall, in combination, be at least half the total membership of the YPC. The YPE will present to the YPC no less than twice per year. 

a)     The BSA will present to the YPC on the BSA’s current Youth Protection Program (the “Youth Protection Program”), including regarding the implementation of the actions set forth below, as soon as practical, but no later than six months from the Effective Date. 

b)    The BSA will report annually to the YPC on changes to BSA’s Youth Protection Program, compliance in the field, and trends of abuse identified and addressed during the period between meetings. This report shall also be shared with the Organization (defined below) and each Local Council’s Executive Commitee. 

c)     To the extent reasonably practicable, it is intended that the YPC be involved in all aspects of youth protection at the BSA, through discussion, consulatation and review with the YPE.

4 hours ago, OaklandAndy said:

Now if any organization fails to put in those safeguards, then yes sue the heck out of them. Otherwise, individuals need to be  held for individual actions. If someone wants to do something illegal, then  they are going to do it no matter how many safeguards, screenings, trainings, seminars, etc., that you have. 

I'm not sure if I am picking too much of a nit with your choice of language, but "putting in place safeguards..." is somewhat desultory or mechanical. Structure without comprehensive, consistent, enthusiastic application, oversight and upgrades is a skeleton without a brain, muscle, organs, blood, etc. (Apologies if those things were inherent in what you meant.) For example, I think the new YP measures in the plan "force," facilitate and enhance both the processes and protocols and cultural reinforcement in high-leverage areas that were lax. My nickels. 

17 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

When I check on the fires, there is a place to donate but there is these statements:

Quote

During this time of financial restructuring, we are not permitted to accept donations from the following states: California, District of Columbia, Illinois, Kansas, Mississippi, New Jersey, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Puerto Rico, Tennessee, Virgin Islands or Wisconsin.

Can any of our more knowledgeable forum members provide some enlightenment as to why this is the case?

 

From whence cometh this excerpt? 

On 5/10/2022 at 4:32 PM, Wyobkr said:

I started keeping track early and was fascinated by the proposed monthly amounts the various firms were stating they would charge.  Nearly every day I review the dockets including pay applications submitted. Based on 80% recovery (actual billing) as of yesterday the total is $159,052,158.67.  That will be plus or minus a few cents. 

As to the photo I posted above, are you able to explain what it takes to become a certified time logger and fee application preparer? Mama "needs" a new pair-o-shoes.  I'll cut down the hourly from $298.237519 to an even $250. 

10 minutes ago, Wyobkr said:

Based on 80% recovery (actual billing) as of yesterday the total is $159,052,158.67.

Back to introducing my noggin to the desk. By now you'd think they'd be very well acquainted. 

I noted on the docket that some professionals have submitted their 26th monthly application for payment of fees. Anyone have an idea of the aggregate total, even roughly? Strange person that I am, I took my lunch break and thought I needed to slam my head against the cherry wood for a few minutes. Easy way to induce such a reaction? Enter "fee" into the keyword search on the docket, hit "Load" and get your forehead in position. Randomly:

Morris Nichols for January - $467,000 and change 

Morris Nichols for February - $517,000 and change

Berkeley Research Group (an oldie) August-October $715,000 and pocket change

Okay. It's all pocket change, right?

Also, would some accounting wizard please cipher out the small print entry on the attached photo? Please? When you do, I beg for the explanation to be in plain English, as required by a guy I know who thus far has avoided such calculatin' through one stint of undergrad and two graduate degrees? I am cornfusled.

On 5/8/2022 at 11:26 AM, yknot said:

I can't recall exactly what his opinion on this was but I know he continually pointed out that the IVFs were precisely why the BSA was in trouble -- court cases found the BSA negligent for supressing their existence. It was negligence more than the actual abuse that tripped BSA up. Or something to that effect.

The issue both he and I highlighted was the fact that BSA at all levels "knew or should of known" the imminent threat of CSA throughout the organization. The documented knowledge of that irrefutable evidence created/creates a gimme case of negligence under the law. The "knew or should of known" element was NOT ONLY regarding disconnected, diffuse incidents in many locations over 10 decades, but it illustrated in great detail, among other things:

1. Repeat patterns of grooming;

2. Behaviors and indicia of both abusers and high risk Scouts;

3. High vulnerability and easy access within certain contexts/locations; 

4. The typical abuse cycle of specific acts of grooming, special treatment, emotional manipulation, isolation, and threats express or implied; 

5. Inadequate oversight and breach of the duty or protect; and CRITICALLY, which was CS main point, 

6. A systemic failure to fully and carefully vet and supervise adult leaders.

Add these up and negligence is simple. It was one thing for CSA plaintiffs to make allegations and try to link together the publicly known cases, whether individual or multi-victim, and another all together for attorneys to present and PROVE the patterns by internal records that span 100+ years. Further, those records demonstrate volunteer and professional involvement with those cases at every single level of Scouting. The IVF that lays the foundation for my rebuttal of time-bar based on fraudulent concealment is one example. It shows in black and white that my SE was aware of the grooming in my Troop while concurrently managing, documenting and reporting a similar case to every professional Scouter up the chain. His letters recording every phase of the incident include communications with the police, COR, SM, LC president, an untitled professional we'll call J. E., the Regional Director of Support Services (Robert Kilmer) and ultimately to the desk and files of the Executive of Registration and Subscription Services (Paul I. Ernst). The other sister CO/Troop was less than 2 miles from the meeting place of our Troop AND the SE know both Troops and their leaders very well. My CO and meeting place happened to be directly across the street from my home. Wee for me. If only...

Sorry for typos. Shoving this into a spare moment and typing feverishly. Apologies.

Oh, yeah. I know some will interject the "societal standards" argument. I'm just reporting the argument and don't want to revive the well-flogged horse for another round of whipping. 

15 hours ago, MYCVAStory said:

What we see then, over time, are the coming together of many factors that "allow" the abuse to be shared.  For many that's just plain losing the desire or ability to hold it inside for so long because of essentially being too tired to do so.  That may also be coupled with a place in life where it's perceived as "safer" to share.

There's a third option, not at all volitional.

I did not come to a place of factors allowing me to share. I had hinted, but never disclosed to anyone other than the girl I dated who was abused by her father, along with her twin sister. Even then, the words were few. In my case, the factors wrenched from me the box I had been desperately clutching to my chest. A box of "dark and dangerous treasures" which had been poisoning me from the inside out for 30 years. In a very real sense and more accurately, the infectious box finally ate its way out of me in true Alien fashion. My body couldn't hold onto it any longer, though it tried. In the trying, that 40 year old body, along with it's pre-packaged mind and spirit, utterly broke. I wanted to haul it back inside with one hand and sew up the wound with the other, but the wound was gaping and irreparable. I was too tired anyway. 

Over the next 15 years, I ended up in the hospital for peri-anal fistulae, heart attack, and multiple surgeries. I ended up in treatment for addiction, childhood trauma, eating disorders...a "professional in crisis." Multiple times and gobs-o-money. I ended up in the psyche hospital, also multiple times. Road the slab for ECT and had the pleasure of being shot with Haloperidol and strapped down post suicide attempts and violent resistance of police intervention. The beat goes on. I lost my company. I lost my friends. My church crew even split, save one. I nearly lost my family. I berate myself that I didn't have the ability to stuff it longer and later chose the moment, more or less. Perhaps the toxic brew of BSA CSA co-mingled with other CSA, and physical and emotional abuses of my childhood, teen and young adult years to up the potency of the infection. I wonder. I know mine is not a unique story.  MANY have had it worse. Just thought I'd add human implosion to the abuse disclosure options.

20 hours ago, skeptic said:

Somewhere on here, one survivor noted that his father never knew. 

It is I. Do you have a specific question? I believe we discussed this topic back then, though in a fairly combative exchange. You pointed to this "failure to disclose" being a major hitch in the process giddy up, stating I bore some responsibility for remaining mum. Happy to try over if there's something I can add.

13 hours ago, MYCVAStory said:

Which committee is this?  The one that was a part of the non-monetary demands of the settlement has not been created.

My recollection is Dr. Kennedy from the TCC watches the forum, per one post eons ago. He testified about working on the YP terms now in the plan. 

1 hour ago, MYCVAStory said:

The future can be seen as binary; it will get better or it won't.  For those who believe it will get better, and I know you hope in your heart it does, I'd like you to address the degree that "better" is good enough. 

We agree on virtually every point raised, so understand these are some of my areas of musing. In places, I'll try to say what BSA National and the highly effective local expressions of big 's' Scouting might be thinking. I know. Dangerous.

We have to have a baseline, which we don't really have. That is on BSA National. Until the real data - sans what has not been reported and MUST be assumed to what degree I also don't know - there is no metric. For me, this is one of the critical issues to remedy ASAP to the best of the ability of those who research, unpack, analyze and report the existing data.

1 hour ago, MYCVAStory said:

If the current plan goes through the reported YP violations will be known publicly.  There will be reporting for anyone interested on a troop-lvelel for the preceding two years.  The details are to be worked out but clearly we will have a MUCH better understanding of any REPORTED abuse at the most serious levels. 

As I see it, this will create a focus that has not existed, at least in public. Units, Packs, etc. will know what's happening in their midst. It makes me crazy I can't yet know how many others my SM abused. It is one of the most compelling and central issues to my claim, history and understanding of what happened before, around, and after my time in Scouting. Focused detail on how "successful" local Scouting is at protecting kids must be a factor. What happens when a "franchise" is documented as breaking the rules and thereby generates lawsuits, health violations and brand degeneration? They are penalized, potentially get prosecuted, lose their rights and are either shut down or taken over by "new management." (Forgive the analogy which commoditizes and commercializes the issue. Best I can do in a pinch.)

1 hour ago, MYCVAStory said:

I'd like you to address the point where you believe it, or some part of it, should cease to exist because it CANNOT keep children safe.  What is that number or frequency?  What level of abuse?  Under what circumstances in the future can the BSA say "We have proven that we can keep children safe?"  What is satisfactory?

The trip lever for action has to be a low number of verified incidence. Perhaps folks like CHILDUSA are consulted and set this standard, I don't know.

"it, or some part" is key to me. I have come to respect that Scouting is local. What happens when a law is airtight, but law enforcement fails to apply it and allows crimes to be committed within their jurisdiction. Does the criminal justice system get shut down? Again, the legal parameters are solid. I am rolling these issues over in my little brain. I want to be fair, in a practical and moral sense. Does my two cents make sense to the sentient.

47 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRsaxXrjk3w&ab_channel=playinhard

please take 20 minutes to view

You can start at 8:20 and get the relevant crux. 

3 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Anti scouting makes no sense.

Barry

Barry, your former 10-year Director of Youth Protection said, unequivocally, that "children are not safe in Scouting," that "[he] failed" to protect children, and apologized to survivors. You disagree with him, of course, but are you feeling no dissonance in the Force? No understanding that there is a different position? Words matter. 

17 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Correct. The program does so much good for youth and community, being anti BSA doesn't make sense. Of course we all have aspects of the program we don't like, but to come to all discussions as anti BSA doesn't make sense to me. 

Have you ever gotten severe food poisoning, stung by a bunch of bees, had your father pull out your "loose" teeth with a pliers or hooked on opioids? I have. That specific food, though good and healthy? No thanks. Things with stingers, though they do a lot of good? Not so much. Dental visits (and I'll avoid father issues and pliers, which I've dealt with through therapy)? Dislike enormously. Taking any narcotics, even post-op? Nah. Making sense is about understanding. Being anti-BSA "doesn't make sense to me," means you don't (or can't or won't allow yourself to) understand the complete aversion of someone to BSA continuing as an institution, based on the abuse they suffered. It is completely understandable.  No? Perhaps it's not logical to you, based on the good vs ill equation, but you can't understand it? Just checking to see if that's really what you intended to say. Thanks.

59 minutes ago, ALongWalk said:

Pretty difficult to listen to what happened to a survivor and his friend. 

Wash, rinse, repeat. 

5 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Call them and ask for your Silver Buffalo medal, certificate, and knot!

At around $25 per, and time to produce the certificates...if 10K survivors asked, you're looking at $250K min and a good amount of man-hours.

Anyone willing to call and find out the phone number/contact info for the process?? 

Ha! That would be quite a deluge. 

Scroll down. Thoughts?
 

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2022/05/03/scouters-to-receive-2022-silver-buffalo-silver-antelope-awards-scoutings-top-national-and-territorial-volunteer-honors/?utm_source=scoutingwire&utm_campaign=swvolunteer05042022&utm_medium=email&utm_content=

Purdue argues for third-party releases.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/nation/appeals-court-to-consider-paving-way-for-purdue-pharma-deal-out-of-bankruptcy

https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/purdue-urges-skeptical-appeals-court-revive-sackler-shield-opioid-lawsuits-2022-04-29/

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

The 18 - 30 year old age group is prime to help if approached.  One of my biggest complaints of the BSA is that they seem to ignore that demographic.  When I was in my 20s, I didn't have kids, had a TON of free time (compared to now) and was volunteering for various organizations.  BSA never reached out (and I never even thought of it).  I volunteered for sports clubs & FIRST robotics.  If BSA reached out, I could have been a district volunteer or even unit.  I'm convinced that there is huge potential in that group.

This side note is based on my out of nowhere, self-motivated attempt to reengage at age 58. Along with the LC thing, I became a NESA member. I then began getting very infrequent emails related to Scouting and mostly NESA. Why didn't BSA reach out to me sooner? I receive my Eagle in 1975, Vigil in 1977 I think, and turned 18 in 1979. I have not been hard to locate, though I've lived all over the place. Never a letter to donate even. Odd. Rather foolish and shortsighted, me thinks.

5 hours ago, qwazse said:

But I would rather my kids understand that we live in a perverse world than pretend that keeping away from organization Y will be safer than going to the mall with their mates.

From whence cometh these seemingly off-handed assertions and phantom statistic? Is your last quip stating children are at an equivlanet risk of CSA while wandering around in the mall with a friend as they are within an organization lead by adults? I may be misreading, but here are some statistics. Having a brain misfire. I'm trying to say avoiding creating potentially dangerous adult acquaintances means a reduction of CSA risk. Is that the ideal to separate oneself? Probably not, but just trying to figure out what you're saying and on what basis.

https://www.rainn.org

On anything and everything related to YP, please keep in mind there will soon (?) be a Youth Protection Committee made up of BSA management, LC representatives, CO representatives, for now Praesidium as a consultant, and the 50% balance BSA CSA survivors. As soon as available, get the names and contact information for whoever is listed and keep your cards and letters coming. I intend to do so. I'll bet dollars to donuts the survivor reps will be readily accessible. BSA and the others would be wise to open the door, too. From everything I've heard, this can be a serious pivot toward change. Take it or leave it, but the past refrains of "No one will listen to us" and "we have no access," at least on YP, should no longer be sung around the campfire if this comes to pass. 

5 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I have not seen it yet, but did see the list of folks who are in it and contributed, and know our former national Youth Protection Director, Michael Johnson, is involved. I have two questions regarding him and his info.

 

1. What raw data is he using when he state, “The truth is clear: no child is safe in Scouts BSA programs.” I want to see stats, trends,  reports, etc to prove this is the case. And I want the raw data because as Mark Twain once said, " There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and then there is statistics."

2. If his statement is true, then what the heck was he doing for 10 years?

I ask this not to be a smart aleck, but to get some understanding. He was the one responsible for Youth Protection, and if he failed in his job, I want to know why.

Same here. It's veddy veddy interesting and the info vacuum is killing me. One way or the other, I really want/need to understand. I find it very odd how shrouded everything surrounding MJ seems to be. (I know, I know. Legal issues and what not.) But, why did he leave? What did BSA not do that he recommended? He publicly and strenuously touted the YP program then, not so long after, excoriated and condemned it. He worked for 10 years and then gave a press conference and tearfully stated, "We failed you. I failed you." I found it genuine, but would really like the backstory and the data.

15 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Some here are supporting killing the program. I believe scouting is a noble program that adds good moral decision makers to the world.

I'm sorry, but this is another shift of tense and subject non-answer.