ThenNow

2 minutes ago, MYCVAStory said:

Survivors know this well and I hope others appreciate it.  ALL those "triggers" that hit out of nowhere. 

There are many things I wish those who have been spared child abuse of any kind could understand. I know some who do understand many of these things. How, you ask. They have come to understand because they have been intentional about listening. They have studied both written materials and survivors' realtime behavior. They have learned the uncomfortable art of "holding the space" while a survivor is spinning out of control or grieving or vacating their body for no apparent reason. As I read your post multiple such things flashed through my mind, but one in particular. I wish those who were spared could appreciate and acknowledge the loss of momentum that happens after a triggering event. I've literally lost years. I can lose my entire ability to focus or be present in a group of people. I can lose two minutes or hours of productive time. I prefer to be uninterrupted when working because a small thing can trigger a memory or, most often, a shame reaction over a seemingly innocuous comment or interaction. It's a constant battle. I never know the angle from which a punch might come or from whom or what. 

37 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said:

Just found the trailer and viewed it.  I didn't need any audio to take me back to that summer.  The camp, the lake... it was just like that for me.  It is clear that while I probably need to watch this and other programming to continue to work through my abuse, I will die with the bad memories. 

The first time it was posted, I couldn't watch all the way through. I felt like it was too sensationalized with the Hitchcockian score, over wrought camera angles and typical American film schmutz. Decided to watch it through 10 minutes ago. I still despise how American filmmakers and TV producers troll the bottom for easy enticement and dramatization, but was taken off guard during one snippet. It really threw me. It was when the abuser was in a dark family room with the boy. They sat side by side on the sofa. The man put his arm around the boy and it was like someone sucked the center mass out of my body. "Just like that..." I could literally feel the negative energy impact and and the air left me. Wow. The Body Keeps the Score. To state the obvious, I was abused in my SM's home, in addition to Summer Camp, camping trips, Scouting events, and other interactions at diverse locations. 

5 hours ago, Eagledad said:

I’m travel in Europe at moment

Lucky duck! Assuming for pleasure, enjoy!

5 hours ago, Eagledad said:

they use the same Red Yellow Green traffic signals as the rest of the world. And, we are warned to watch out for drivers who run red lights. The whole world knows the rules and they know when the rules are broken. 

I have no earthly idea what this means or how it applies to the exchange. The analogy is further strained, now to the breaking point me thinks.

5 hours ago, Eagledad said:

if you want to keep using the 82,000 scouts sexually abused number

Trust me. I don't "want to." It hurts me every time I see it typed on my screen or others, hear it mentioned in hearings and read about it in the funny papers. It is the number until it's not the number. 

5 hours ago, Eagledad said:

82,000 scouts sexually abused number (which I don’t believe)

Is disbelief, absent proof to the contrary, serving anyone in this context? Rub that faith lamp really really hard and let's see if Robin Williams pops out and removes some proofs of claim from the Settlement Trustee's plate. Judge Houser might stroke you a check from the survivors' bank account for a reverse broker fee. 

When I contacted the Sheriff's Dept to pursue my abuser in 2003-2004, he easily found at least 5 guys who were also abused. Each could corroborate and were in statute, contrary to this geezer. He tried to get them to be witnesses in a criminal prosecution. They all declined. They were 7-10+ years younger than me, in their late 20s to 30s and lived in town. Again, none would come forward. Question: Are all of the boys who were abused by my SM claimants in this case. 100%, "No." One of them, a good friend of my baby brother's, drank himself to death in his 40's. Are there others who are not? I bet so, but I don't know for p-positive. 

To reiterate what's been said many times, most effectively by MYCVA, there is a latency period for CSA disclosure especially with men. In my case, I was 40 when the ground opened up and the magnitude of it hit me. Even then, I did not fully admit or recognize what was happening and why. That took another 10 years until I was 50. Interestingly, and I just this second realized it, the period of greatest tumult was while my boys were the age I was during my Scouting tenure. It started when my oldest son asked to join Scouts and I began to turn the corner about the time he would have aged out.

5 hours ago, Eagledad said:

can you include the total number of BSA members during the same time?

I can, but I already sent my Regret to your RSVP. Smart aleck aside, I could find them but am not motivated to do so. I don't see the point. I'm not going to debate this point any more. If you think BSA's historical model of men taking boys who are not their children into the woods and into their homes without layers of oversight and protocols to protect kids was just as good as any other organizations - which you appear to believe - my words are not going to change your mind. Okay. If you insist, I'll add more of my words anyway.

When I started chiming in on this forum I mentioned all the other youth activities in which I participated and compared the levels of private access to kids vs BSA. When I added them up on a sheet of paper, the other organized and supervised activities (save being an altar boy and all that went with it) had fewer opportunities for abuse than what I experienced in Scouting alone. My experience. My anecdotical research, but it was a decent example of what I'm taking about. I had and have no reason to fabricate. I was part of a snow shoveling and lawn mowing business during the same time frame I was in Scouting. I was outside all the time. I worked in many locations. Adults were around me and saw me working. I was never abused by an adult during my tenure in that enterprise. I was the only employee and the boss. Context matters as to opportunity. 

18 minutes ago, clbkbx said:

https://onmyhonormovie.com/experts

So, what you're telling me is no one who really knows what they're talking about. Lawyers and Scouters and experts, oh my.  Kidding aside, that is quite a lineup. No small potatoes in the midst. 

16 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Lol...never heard it until I moved here...  macadam

Ha. It's definitly not what you call a guy with raven hair and a flattop, but it would work very well.

1 minute ago, MYCVAStory said:

This is the first step.

Indeed. And nary a foot has yet hit the blacktop. (That's what we called asphalt in Podunk.) 

9 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Without doing a few hours of research on my own, can anyone provide a thumbnail of any changes proposed?

One better. (But apologies. I added 4 fingers to the thumb.)

BSA - YP Final Filed 2.9.2022 (MCA).pdf

6 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I would contend that kids are less safe in either situation, without the constant vigilance of adults who are watching out for them.

Agreed 100%. My intention was not to excise that indispensable element, jut address whether it's better to have uniform policies, protocols and layers of oversight including by survivors or none such. Just my wee effort to pose a simple either or question about the institutional vs none. I don't think many of the "burn it down" folk ponder that. I may be wrong. I was once before. I thought I was wrong and turned out I was right and thereby wrong.. 

6 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Policies do not equal vigilance...that is part of the thinking that got us here in the first place.

Yes. To infinity and beyond. (Where is Buzz Lightyear when you need him, by the way?!)

18 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

All who remain in Scouting need to be zealots to improve and enforce youth protection policies.  

I'm gonna make a left turn to Albuquerque and address YP directly. If this needs to go elsewhere, I guess it can be moved. My concern is some won't go there and we'll lose the topic. 

I really would like to hear more from you Scouters about the YP provisions now in the plan. I think it's very important to know what those applying the in the field elements think and feel about them. Thanks for your support. (Nod to Bartles & Jaymes.) 

On 4/25/2022 at 6:15 AM, Eagledad said:

Isn’t that like saying traffic lights don’t work because someone got hurt by a drunk driver running a red light.

Scouting is very safe. Not perfect, but very safe.

Barry

If 82,500 people are killed at one type of traffic light in a particular type of location or context, that type of light either doesn't work flat out or is utterly ineffective and/or dysfunctional in that context. On that basis I don't think the analogy is apt either, but don't really care so much if it is or isn't.

My concern is with the second sentence. There can be a tendency by some to switch tenses in mid argument. When a post is addressing the past, a sleight of hand switcheroo rebuttal inserts present and future. Two different arguments entirely. That swap out is unfair, invalid as a rebuttal and, most importantly irrelevant. I'm not poking, just using this example to illustrate what I see as a fault line in one side of the debate. That's all. Carry on...

9 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

Not a fair question as the word "institution" includes both the National BSA corporation, AND the Scouting Movement.

Where does the question say or imply that? Scouters here have taught me the two are not the same. 

9 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

I stand with you @ThenNow.

Thank you. 

Effectively attacking all the bases to say COs are sufficiently one in the same with BSA. That's a gross simplification, but anyway. It's well articulated and and interesting read, but I decline to summarize. 

III. Conclusion

For the reasons above and those argued at the confirmation trial, the Dumas & Vaughn Claimants argue that the third-party releases and channeling injunctions sought in this case are not supported by the law or the evidentiary record.

2022.04.22 Dumas & Vaughn Letter Brief (stamped).pdf

2 hours ago, PaleRider said:

 

Is anyone familiar with the Exec Producers, production company or filmmakers? 

1 hour ago, yknot said:

One part I can't wrap my head around is that the plan requires both the Catholic Church and the United Methodist Church to work with the BSA to increase membership. That shifts the priority from  youth protection to youth recruitment. It seems like a serious conflict of interest that once again by default creates an environment where less than ideal situations may be overlooked in the drive to increase membership. 

Honestly, based on Bishop Schol's testimony, I think there is less to worry about with the UMC. He and they seem very intent on following through with both YP mirroring the BSA and caring for survivors in their midst. I believe they/he should be leading the CO portion of the YPC. That's my take, based on all I've seen, heard, read and learned along the way.

Scroll down the Projects list...

https://www.wintersrockentertainment.com/projects

https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2022-04-21/explainer-thorny-issues-face-boy-scouts-bankruptcy-judge?context=amp

20 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

What was shown in court was from a senior executive meeting held at Philmont in August of 2021.  This was not a big group of volunteers ... this appears to have been a meeting of senior staff/volunteers.  My guess is only those watching the court hearing plus a few others have any clue what was discussed.

Those slides and Devang Desai’s attendant testimony had some interesting and none too wise revelations. He took good notes, which rather came back to bite him (and National) in the tuchus. 

Ferris has the day off. 

As follows:

1. By hook or by crook, a spot on the Youth Protection Committee and a board of one kind or another. I am not shy and will contact the TCC about it or whatever it takes.

2. Be a survivor resource for any LC that wants one, beyond they survivor board member if they find one. 

3. Visiting the HABs to see the eventual monuments.

4. Go to some national event as a means to confirm the good side of Scouting and see if it can be healing.

That's off the top of my head. I am in the balance on locally. I'm not sure if that's in the cards or healthy for me. I already visited my summer camp, which allowed me a creepy and nostalgic experience. I mapped locations in my POC and was able to confirm my recollections, which was comforting. The camp has changed a great deal and at the same time not so much. I immediately knew what was missing and what new. Most of the staff lodges were gone, the nature center where I worked was replaced (more or less) and the snake pits absent, the waterfront had no lifeguard house and the water was incredibly high, and an open-air chapel was built in memory of my friends who died. It needed some TLC which I almost set out doing by figure of my connection to the family that was killed in a car crash. The main lodge and dining hall looked and smelled exactly the as I remember, but felt much smaller. The main new things were the cinderblock showers with individual stalls. Some of you who know this camp will no doubt no the one of which I speak.

I appreciate the invite and will give my forty cents. I am feeling generous as the season, and maybe even hope, can spring eternal. 

As some who've read my innumerable posts and droning know, I had reengaged with Scouting in the late fall of 2019. Then, February 18, 2020 struck and I was sucked into a vortex. A manic blackhole of slashing emotions, manic involvement in this process and a gnawing desire to do something that would afford me a measure of control. I think my survivor status and media commentary got me dismissed from the LC Executive Board. That is an unconfirmed, though rationale assumption. I no longer appear on the list of members, but that could also be due to inaction. So, as to forgiveness and moving on, maybe I can be one example. I was ready to help kids do some of what I accomplished and gained from Scouting, and avoid what I encountered on the dark, hidden and ugly side. 

As part of the mania and gnawing, I somehow found the announcement of the TCC selection that was soon to happen in Wilmington. I talked with my wife about it and hurriedly filled out my application and booked my ticket. My wife was about as sure I should do that as she was about reengaging several months earlier. When I went, the room was full of TCC hopefuls, attorneys and BSA folks. It was as surreal as surreal can get. Men and boys - I recall one teenager - were there for various reasons. It felt like a room of boys. Sadness and longing after years of silence and lack of acknowledgment. That said, two things stood out. First, I spoke at length with a man who was, in his estimation, denied Eagle for reporting his abuser. His paperwork was "lost" at least twice. He has persisted to try to find it for 30 years. No luck. The Scouter abuser was an important person and was not removed. The boy continued anyway and is still involved today. I gave him my Eagle pin and we cried. Second, when I interviewed with the committee lead by the US Trustees Office, represented by Mr. Buchbinder and one other whose name I don't recall, I told him I did not want BSA to go out f existence. I was there for my family, recompense, other survivors from my Troop and all those kids in and yet to be in Scouting. He told me that opinion was nearly universal among the applicants who preceded my in the magic tent.

So, I will allow any one who wants to respond do so before I continue. Feel free to ask questions. I love talking, as some of you are well aware. I hope this helps and provides a starting point from the perspective of one survivor. Again, thanks for starting this thread. 

PS - Forgive typos. I'm supposed to be cleaning the house. My wife ran errands. Fill in the blank. Oh. I am almost done so ask not to be accused of being un-Scoutlike.  

If anyone would like me to weigh in on this, shoot me a DM. I may otherwise not see any reply. I stumbled onto this thread based on the name. I don't want to step into this if you want it to be a discussion among active Scouters. I respect that desire, if so. If no one hollers either way, I will take that as my answer. I do appreciate the topic. It's thoughtful series of questions and could be a very deep and multifaceted discussion. 

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

They have agreement to receive a loan (I believe from a trust) to deal with their cash flow

I believe Ms. Lauria said a "foundation," but I didn't hear any elaboration. Could be wrong. I'm highly skilled in that area. 

22 hours ago, MattR said:

You're all rather passionate about your views and they're all valid. And yet repeating the same arguments over and over again ... isn't going to get anyone outdoors.

Footnote: I have been advised by counsel that there is a key Chapter 11 rule we may be overlooking. It is as follows:

In bankruptcy court, every single solitary thing may very well have been said already, BUT every single solitary thing may not have been said by everyone. In an effort to avoid any and all possible omissions, reruns are to be expected. Nay, required.

Please accept my recitation of this rule as a moment of levity.