Armymutt

I could have sworn I heard of a video or transcript of Green Bar Bill saying the Scout Law with further details for each point. I'm coming up short on Google. I've seen some explanation pages, but I thought there was one he did. Any help?

Excluding registered Scouts from events bigger than the unit level because they aren't like you?

The emphasis on camping and Arrowmen being "campers" has been curtailed. What's funny is that our council has been asking for units to submit ideas on where to go camping. Like we don't have an organization that used to have that as a mission.

I have the 1992 OA Handbook and a modern one with no date. In 1992, the Purpose of the Order was "To recognize those campers - Scouts and Scouters - who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives and by such recognition cause other campers to conduct themselves in such manner as to warrant recognition. To develop and maintain camping traditions and spirit. To promote Scout camping, which reaches its greatest effectiveness as a part of the unit's camping program... To crystallize the Scout habit of helpfulness into a life purpose of leadership in cheerful service to others." Today: "Recognize those who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives and by such recognition cause others to conduct themselves in such manner as to warrant recognition. Promote camping, responsible outdoor adventure, and environmental stewardship as essential components of every Scout's experience, in the unit, year-round, and in summer camp. Develop leaders with the willingness, character, spirit, and ability to advance the activities of their units, our Brotherhood, Scouting, and ultimately our nation. Crystallize the Scout habit of helpfulness into a life purpose of leadership in cheerful service to others." Seems like camping has been severely downgraded in importance and focus for the Order. I've yet to learn how decreasing the number of camping nights by 20% makes one a better candidate for the Order.

We've been told for many years that diversity is out strength. Now we have various groups wanting to have their own exclusive events and we are told that "Affinity outings strengthen Scouts and Scouters ties to Scouting. They bring us together, they don't divide." by our Council President. So which is it? The Boy Scouts was, arguably, an affinity group. I'm all for groups hosting Scouting events, but I believe that we are strengthened when all Scouts are invited to participate. Otherwise, where is the learning? If you're not inviting all Scouts, exactly how are these events bringing us together?

Iteration is the number of events occurring of the same type. Normally one reviews what happens and make changes for the next event with an eye toward improving. I think you are creating a strawman. The event doesn't address any of the concerns you bring up. Frankly, it create more friction by identifying girls as special members rather than equal members. If this was something like the Catholic Camporee in that it is hosted by the Catholic Committee on Scouting and the Knights of Columbus are cooking a dinner and a breakfast for the participants, but it is open to all Scouts, then I would have no issue. If the girl troops want to host a camporee for all the Scouts in the council and staff the stations, cool, but I'm 90% sure that is not what is happening here.

This is at least the third or fourth iteration. There are boy troops younger than this and there are no special camporees being offered for them. We're trying to stand up troops in areas devoid of scouting with leaders who have no scouting experience. There are no special camporees for them. There are ample opportunities for training available for both youth and adults. I don't know of too many girl troops that don't have a boy troop in the same CO. I do know of boy troops that have a Tenderfoot for an SPL. Those kids are pretty much left to fend for themselves in a program that was designed to help them escape the poverty of the cities. If anyone needs special events, it's those kids, not the girl troops who can simply walk across the hall and ask an older Scout in a boy troop.

How do you figure that only aiming to increasing female membership is acceptable? I also don't see any mention of this as a recruiting event. It's a camporee. Those are for active Scouts, not the general public. Is demographic-based Scouting events where we really want to go? That seems to fly in the face of universal brotherhood and becomes an "othering" type of program.

I'm curious how this inclusiveness jives with the annual girl only camporee. Doesn't sound inclusive to me. https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=844830384336661&set=a.554791236673912

Took a glance at SB tonight. One of the requirements for the Bear Bobcat adventure is "Learn about the denner position and responsibilities." That will be interesting with 2 kids. I also noticed that the youth protection part that used to be just part of the rank requirements is now one of the required adventures. Bears no longer have to learn about knife safety or how to tie knots. The only outdoor activity required is a 1-mile hike. There is no requirement to observe nature during this hike. You could probably do it on a track. Oh, and there's exciting stuff like reviewing your medical record and "Learn about the mission of any non-profit. Find out how they fund their activities and how volunteers are used to help." That just screams 3rd grader fun. No more outings, no need to interact with the community. Everything could be done in a classroom in 8 weeks. This is definitely going to bring in hordes of kids.

Did the addition of girls actually improve numbers? The chart doesn't indicate that. The various changes (and I wouldn't call BLM support and the LDS departure an "outside change") haven't brought in the numbers that we were told they would. The numbers in the Boy Scout program didn't change all that much from 1979 to 2019. Even with COVID, if the changes were to have had the desired effect, I would expect the bars for Boy Scouts to have remained the same, not 75% of the previous numbers. COVID has been over for more than a year and the numbers have dropped even more. Tells me that inclusivity isn't the problem.

Random thought this morning, what happens when people realize that Tenderfoot is a derogatory name for a beginner and people get upset at being called a "Second Class Scout"? Is that suddenly where BSA/SA will put its foot down? Seems kind of arbitrary. If you can change the name of the organization, why can't you change the names of the ranks? On top of that, why have ranks? The rest of WOSM doesn't have ranks, except for the top one in each program. How inclusive is it to say you can't be a certain rank if you haven't spent this certain length of time as the previous rank?

That right there is what I have noticed. I suppose it was to make it easy for DLs as most did not want to be DLs. We are in a drop off society and when I tell a parent that they will have to be the DL if their kid is going to join, they either leave or do it begrudgingly. By the time they get to Webelos and AOL, even the somewhat motivated parent starts phoning it in. What could be some really cool adventures turn into classroom stuff. My son's den cooked spaghetti in the church kitchen for Cast Iron Chef. I don't think they did much focus on budget and certainly didn't go shopping. My son is bored and I'm frustrated because there is little I can do to help. Making my daughter's experience better is one of the few drivers behind my decision making process in favor of continuing in the organization. I'll be home by then and, if the new pack is willing, I can be the Webelos DL and make things awesome. The kids will be close to Tenderfoot in outdoor skills by the time I'm done.

I've noticed that the quality of the OA has gone down. It's become more of the BSA party society. My youth experience was only at the chapter level, the chapter covering all of the UK, Iceland, and Norway. We held our own Ordeal and Brotherhood ceremonies. I remember the entire chapter essentially did the Ordeal with the candidates. Some conducted OA business, but the other remaining few were out there working. In the evening, everyone was present for the ceremonies. I think it officially has changed form the honor society to the service society, but every rank requires some sort of service hours. I'm not sure how the kids will find that to be a draw. It's no longer anything special until you reach Vigil.

Your mention of a lack of adults wanting to be in the outdoors reminded me of a post I saw on an OA FB page. A guy went through Ordeal and described it as the toughest thing he had ever done. I was rather shocked. He looks to be about mid-30s. I went through Ordeal at 17 and found it to be easier than a day at Philmont. Frankly, the Ordeal these days is easier than the Lodge induction at my old Catholic camp in southern Illinois. I think it was based on the OA when the camp opened in the 60s and was never really updated.

The obvious answer is that we haven't changed the name of the organization enough. I'm certain people will be knocking the doors down now.

That's not a bad idea. I wish our troop was as invested in the pack as yours. Our troop has the same CO but no interaction. Most of the kids came from a pack that folded due to the CO dropping them. Of course, our pack will probably fold at the end of the year due to lack of parental interest and my son crossing over to a different troop.

The Cub program was pretty simple. I think it started too early, but I get the need to get kids interested before they get into sports. It really just took an evening of study to fully grasp it. Taking away the beads and arrowheads simplified things a bit, but then adding in the belt loops made things worse to me. Most kids don't have a waist big enough to carry all the belt loops. Adding back the beads in different colors and ditching the arrow head and belt loops would be an improvement. I think that moving AOL to its own 5th grade program is a bad idea. Puts extra pressure on the DL to get 8 adventures in before 6 months expires. For the kids that turned 10 in 4th grade, the pressure is even greater. Another pack has a girl that is crossing over before school ends for 4th grade. With the new program she couldn't do that. I am curious what the discussion format is for all these changes. It doesn't sound like anyone is developing courses of action and wargaming them to determine the best route. Is anyone Red Teaming them?

I wish it was that simple. Prioritizing my obligations was simple on Monday. 1. Work related that I couldn't blow off or my boss would find out? 2. Scouts. 3. Everything else. Kids had a sports game the same day as a Cub Scout event? No brainer, we'll be camping. I have a hard time being loyal back when an organization is disloyal. I'm just Scottish and German enough to take it personally and say "Screw it" even if I really want to be there.

I've been thinking about it for a couple of days. I've come to the conclusion that the BSA was pretty much my home. It may sound silly, but I can remember the first day I walked into the BSA office in my current council. I had never set foot in that place before, but I felt like I had just walked into my home once again. I did a little reading on rebranding this morning and found out that it's not unusual for brands to lose 20% of their loyal customers following rebranding. I was extremely passionate about the BSA and worked hard to revive a unit, expand the program, and be involved as much as I can. I drove 600 miles after work, got in a 2AM and was up by 6 so that a Cub Scout event could take place. Now, that drive has disappeared. For the first time, I'm content to "just be a parent". I don't even know that I want to be the Scoutmaster for our Scout volunteers at Cub Scout Day Camp in June.

So you never did any backpacking? I don't know of any BSA troops that use giant tents. Maybe things are different today, but we had 2-man tents.

Well, I just resigned my commissioner position. Could no longer justify spending the time I'm in that area to myself. I can't get motivated to do the things I need to do for Cub Scout Day Camp at this point. Tossing a 114 year old name on the trash heap has really destroyed my dedication.

You had 1 male and 1 female in a tent together and never had any contact of a sexual nature occur?

I was going to ask exactly what sort of recruiting support your council provides. Ours provides nothing. They might print up some flyers that are universal. That's not helpful. They don't send anyone to the schools. They don't show up at open houses to help out.

Who stays up to make sure that line isn't crossed? We used to be able to leave our tents and engage in all sorts of mischief without the adults knowing. It's not like the campsite is surrounded by concertina wire.