Armymutt

I've known our CC for a few years now, well before we even entered the troop. She is looking more and more exhausted these days. We got a couple of new families in and there have been complaints from them constantly. Apparently, there are complaints from other parents too. When did this become a thing? When I was a kid, parents had minimal contact with the troop, unless they were registered. She does a great job and I don't want her to quit. Personally, I'm of the mindset that the CC doesn't have the responsibility to investigate any complaints. It's not in the job description. When I was the pack CC, and when my wife was before me, our policy was that complaints are only accepted from registered adults who actively participate. Anything else was peripheral noise from people who don't really care about the program. She had a parent who had been in the troop for all of 4 days screaming at her because of the cellphone thing. She's too nice to tell the lady to pound sand and find a different unit. I'd like to help her out. Husband is the acting SM and we had a few discussions this weekend. The kids are ok - we caught two of them in a pretty significant lie. Another parent came with a complaint that her 12 y/o son saw an 11 y/o boy naked. When I asked the 11 y/o, he reported that the 12 y/o peeked in the window of his tent while he was changing. I was inclined to chalk it all up to little boys being little boys, but the mom of the 11 y/o, who was also willing to ignore it, is now cocked and ready to launch an attack on the 12 y/o's family. I'm realizing that Scouting, like veterinary medicine, is fun until the parents get involved.

That looks really cool!

That's what I'm encouraging. We're rather limited on trees with appropriate spacing here in NC. They are either 5 feet apart or 100. I know at Philmont, we ditched half the poles and just used some that were about 6' tall. The fly went to the ground. Helped out in some massive rain storms. I've tried to get them to make stakes and get blank stares. The handbook doesn't show how and Scout's Life is a paltry version of its prior form. Most of our Scouts don't carry their own hatchet and the troop's hatchet isn't the best for hammering. Also, it's less desirable for use as a lever to extract the nails when stuck and I'd rather Scout not use it as a digging implement.

We decided to add dining flies to our camping gear, partially as a team building exercise, partially as a Scout skill exercise, but mostly to help build patrol identities and provide shelter. I used the instructions found here: https://troop279.us/patrol-dining-fly/ My wife and son helped hold the poles while I tied the knots for the adult fly so I could do a test set up. Poles need straightened and we need to get hammers for the troop, but otherwise, it looks like it will work.

I had a discussion with the Scout last night when he wanted to test for Second Class and couldn't tell me when it is appropriate to use a fire for cooking or other purposes. I pointed out that there are people with the Eagle badge and people with the Eagle badge who actually know the stuff, and asked what type he wanted to be. He said he wanted to be the latter. I pointed out that he couldn't list the Leave No Trace Principles, let alone tell me how to apply them, for example, when it came to fires. I signed off some other stuff, but he will need to return to studying the material.

The SM and I talked yesterday about our philosophy with the program. We agree that it's not Cub Scouts and mastery is the standard. Let's face it, we aren't talking about things that are all that difficult, and the expectation is that if you are going to be in the club, then you need to actually fulfill your obligations to the club. I won't sign off on my own son's stuff without him having a level of mastery that I feel is acceptable. Some things are pretty simple - put the flag up once and I'm satisfied that you know how to do it. When it comes to first aid or safety items, I want to make sure the Scout is confident and competent at the tasks required for his/her rank level.

New kid showed up last week. Went camping with us this past weekend. Can't seem to figure out the patrol method - kept coming to the adults for everything. Mom thinks he can earn Eagle by Christmas. Has him submitting videos for all sorts of requirements. In one, he is obviously reading off a cue card. In another, he ties a square knot instead of a sheet bend. I told the acting SM that I'm not comfortable accepting these as an appropriate level of skill to sign off the requirement. He agrees that it is strange. Has anyone encountered this sort of thing? It's an amazing hyper focus on rank advancement over actually being a Scout. I push my son to learn the material so he can advance, but this is something else.

For us, it's mitigation of an unnecessary liability. An ideal Scout is trustworthy, but reality is often different. I've had a Scout close the curtain to his cabin in my face when it's time to clean the shower house and latrine, knowing full well that I can't go into that space and get him out. We had a parent insist that her son passed the Swimmer test at camp but they didn't record it. I watched the same kid start drowning after swimming 15 yards on Saturday. We have an 11 y/o refuse to head back to camp at 10 PM because he couldn't find his $1000 phone. I don't need parents suing me because Timmy's phone got damaged or lost. Even if they lose, I'd still have to pay a lawyer for the defense. I'm unwilling to put myself in the position of being accused of allowing cyber bullying or worse. One method the Scoutmaster is considering is setting a rule of phones only being allowed for Scouting purposes. Using it for something else is demonstrating that the Scout is not Trustworthy. That prevents the Scout from advancing in rank because they aren't living by the Scout law. I think maybe setting a position requirement is better. PLs, SPL, and Troop Guides can have phones for access to instructional material and time keeping. I still think it's a liability. As far as adults, I also expect them to use their phones only for Scouting needs. For example, entering requirements in SB because the Scouts keep forgetting to bring their handbooks. I have no problem with putting my phone away for the weekend and wouldn't mind just leaving it at home. The other thing I forgot to mention is that phones present another opportunity for conspicuous displays of wealth that run counter to the values of Scouting. Scouting is supposed to be open to all kids. It's hard to feel welcome in an environment where some kids have wealthy enough parents to be a 10 y/o with a smartphone and another with parents who can barely afford to buy a Scout uniform and camping gear.

How do you ensure it isn't being used to stay up all night? How do you ensure it isn't being used to bully? We actually had conversations going on vs the total silence we had during summer camp where everyone was glued to their screens. We have a bunch of "barracks lawyers" who complain that we didn't specify this or that wasn't permitted. It's far easier to simply put them away safely. I don't need an 11 y/o freaking out again and yelling at us that he's not going back to camp because he set his $1000 phone down somewhere.

We're trying to correct what I, and the acting SM, perceive as failures of previous adult and youth leaders in our troop, and the troops from which we have received Scouts. We have a number of Scouts in the Star, Life, and Eagle ranks who can't do basic Scoutcraft. I'm of the mindset that a Scout should be competent at the skills of the previous rank, and an expert at the skills of the ranks below that. For example, I expect a First Class Scout to have no problem tying a square knot, two half hitches, or a taught line hitch. The Guide to Advancement says this: It is important to remember that in the end, badges recognize that Scouts have gone through experiences of learning things they did not previously know. Through increased confidence, Scouts discover or realize they are able to learn a variety of skills and disciplines. Advancement is thus about what Scouts are now able to learn and to do, and how they have grown. Retention of skills and knowledge is then developed later by using what has been learned through the natural course of unit programming; for example, instructing others and using skills in games and on outings. When the requirement says, "Show first aid for the following:", does it mean using the book or from memory? I lean more toward memory with prompting from the examiner. That's what we did this weekend. I have a feeling other leaders have taken a more Cub Scout view of things and if the Scout did it in the class while mimicking the instructor, that was good enough. Consequently, unless the unit actually follows the last sentence of the relevant portion of the guide, the Scout never develops the skill.

Don't know. Depends on whether or not their Scout told them. This isn't Cub Scouts. I expect the Scout to tell their parents about the rule changes their PL puts out.

I'm waiting for that. The solution is for them to become leaders and monitor the cellphone usage by their Scout, away from all the other Scouts. The cellphone must be secured by an adult unless the adult is present while it is in use. The only exception to this rule is when a Scout is using the phone as a means to provide training. After that, the cellphone goes away. We also have parents who complain because their Scout is tasked with providing training on Tenderfoot through First Class skills. "They already did that!" is apparently the phrase. As if Scouting is a one and done type of program.

The public schools across the country have banned cellphones unless medically necessary, like a glucose monitor.

A couple weeks ago, the acting SM announced that cellphone were no longer allowed at Scouting functions. Internalizing this new rule seems a bit slow. This Friday, we arrived at camp. Noticing one Scout playing on his phone, the SM reminded him of the rule, and the phone was secured. A general announcement was made and the remaining phones were collected and secured in a locked vehicle. Turns out, the Scouts actually interact more and get more done without having to be constantly told when they aren't staring at a screen. We had absolutely no issues, until today because a parent couldn't send routine messages to their son. Nothing emergent. We were only 30 minutes from home but it was a massive issue for them. Personally, I'm of the mindset that if you need your child to constantly have a cellphone, then you need to be present with that child to ensure the phone isn't used for cyber bullying or violating YP rules. Otherwise, you need to trust the system and let your child develop into an independent being. There were no parts of the campout that required the use of a phone. If we were going to do the orienteering course, phones would have been returned for that training portion.

I'm not worried about that. The acting SM and I are on the same word in the sentence, let alone the same page. We are also the only two adults on the program side who are consistently involved.

I agree, to an extent. I don't think it's acceptable to have ten patrols of two Scouts or seven patrols of three. The 1942 Handbook for Scoutmasters has a good guide for re-establishing patrols. Essentially, the boys vote by secret ballot on who they would want to be in a patrol with. The SM takes the results and creates the patrols.

I'm still trying to figure that one out. I think it started out in the pre-89 sense. One of the adults back then is my age and an Eagle of the old school variety. The troop formed because the founder's son wanted to quit due to meetings accomplishing the same thing an email could. They started off strong. Then COVID hit and a massive age gap developed. The leader with a Scouting background moved on to Sea Scouts. The older Scouts felt like they were babysitting - I think they weren't being given an incentive to actually develop their patrols into independent elements. To keep them happy, someone decided to put the older kids into a patrol and lopped off the experience from the other patrols. So now, it's teen hang out time for some and complete lack of forward momentum for the bulk of the troop unless an adult starts nudging. My son crossed over in December, but I've been associating with the boys in this troop in the OA and as Cub Scout Day Camp volunteers for several years. I've kept my distance until we were actually part of the unit. I'm due to finally move home permanently in two weeks - retiring from the Army - so I'll be able to be more involved. Since December, I've been limited to weekend activities, summer camp, and the occasional weekly meeting. We're slowly developing a cadre of ASMs who are physically present. Right now, only three of us wear a uniform all of the time. Getting the adults in line is another struggle for another time.

Our troop does something a little different. No one tents together. Everyone has their own. Seems a little odd to me, but it seems to work and avoids a whole host of problems. I'm not sure what the plan is if we go backpacking as it will definitely increase the weight.

One of the points he brought up is that none of the patrols have an identity. These kids are amazingly observant beyond where we were in the early 90s. I don't think you'd have found a single one of us making that observation. We have four patrols. Patrol 1 has one Star who randomly appears, 1 2nd Class, 1 TF, 3 Scout, and 1 no Rank who has been there for about a year. Patrol 2 has 1 1st Class, 2 TF, and 4 Scouts. Patrol 3 has a 17 y/o Life who actually wants to help lead, 1 1st Class, 1 2nd Class, 1 TF, and 3 Scouts. Patrol 4 has 9 Scouts with Ranks from Life to Eagle, 3 of which actually participate. The active ones ditch the rest at their table and walk around to help the younger Scouts. The other four who generally show up, treat the meeting little differently than hanging out at some other place. Honestly, if those guys quit, there'd be no net loss in leadership or productivity. None of those four want to go camping or participate in outings, Eagle projects that aren't their own, etc. All that is to say that it's clear this troop has been pretty close to Webelos 3+ for a while. To jump start things, I recommended that our campout this weekend focus on advancement, or at least be planned with an eye to advancement for the 1st Class and below. One of the requirements for Tenderfoot is to assemble a personal first aid kit. I identified that as something that needed to be done as part of prep and sensitized the SPL to that point. The acting SM asked me if we should bring a bunch of first aid supplies out to the campout for the Scouts to use to assemble kits. To me, that's not the Scouts assembling a first aid kit. That's the Scouts selecting materials from those provided by the adults. I want to encourage them to actually open the handbook, read through it, think about what cases they might encounter, make a list, and then procure the items.

Interesting turn of events tonight. Our lone Eagle Scout who is actually actively showing up AND participating came up to myself and the acting SM and presented his thoughts on the troop. He said that he would dissolve the patrols as they are right now and reform them, integrating Scouts of all ages. He sees that what we have isn't working because there is no one in the patrol to teach the younger Scouts anything. As he was talking, I started laughing internally. I pulled up a text thread where I shared an image from the 1941 Handbook for Scoutmasters that described how to do exactly what he proposed. I think by our next elections in October, the troop will have a different look and feel. My plan is to use the older Scouts who are not in PL roles as Troop Guides, responsible for helping the PLs ensure their Scouts are advancing and gaining the Scout skills they need to be able to act independently, within the G2SS. Hopefully, that will motivate them to start leveraging the technology they have available to hold patrol planning meetings outside of troop meetings and reduce the amount of planning taking place at troop meetings.

I've been reading the 1941 Handbook for Scoutmasters and it reminded me of something I read as a kid in my first Boy Scout Handbook, 9th edition. To make sure I wasn't misremembering, I pulled it off the shelf and on page 17, it discusses Patrol Hikes and Camps. It says "Good patrols go overnight camping by themselves." The 10th edition dilutes the encouragement and makes it more of a possibility. By the 12th edition, the notion of a Patrol doing something without the rest of the troop isn't even an idea. Just to make sure it wasn't a Green Bar Bill anomaly, I went back to the 7th edition and found a similar idea as the 9th. Even as a youth, I always thought it would be fun to have a patrol campout, but we were pretty limited due to transportation. Even the SA website says, "Patrol Activities - A Scout patrol may camp or hike with other patrols in the unit." This sounds suspiciously like "Only troop camping is allowed", which is a bit like Cub Scouts, with the exception of the Webelos and AOL dens. Even the G2SS has eliminated any mention of patrol outings. If a troop is supposed to be made up of patrols and not split into patrols, then shouldn't the focus be on patrol-level activities?

I'm wishing he would act like he was 14. He acts more like he's 10.

What about the other way around. If the MB is earned and the requirement is pretty much the same as the rank requirement, would you accept it? I guess it's like nights of camping for Camping MB and other ranks.

I'm trying to get our SPL on track - he's an immature 14 y/o who got elected because he was a Den Chief and developed a following of minions. Unfortunately, he's way out of his element. I'm reviewing the status of our Scouts working on Tenderfoot through First Class. Many attended summer camp where we had a flag ceremony twice daily. Second Class 8a says "Participate in a flag ceremony for your school, religious institution, chartered organization, community, or Scouting activity." Does this mean be part of the team conducting it? If a Scout observes the flag, salutes as appropriate, says the Pledge of Allegiance, Scout Law, Scout Oath, etc with everyone else, is that participation? I know this will be done over and over through out their time in Scouting, but I want to use it as a tool to show him how to look for opportunities to advance. Same thing with merit badges. First Class 4b says, "4b. Demonstrate how to use a handheld GPS unit, GPS app on a smartphone, or other electronic navigation system. Use GPS to find your current location, a destination of your choice, and the route you will take to get there. Follow that route to arrive at your destination." Geocaching merit badge covers the same stuff, it's just not spelled out exactly the same. Would you support signing off on this requirement for First Class if a Scout completed the MB?

That's exactly where we are right now. Most of the adults in the troop were not Scouts. They took the youth lead concept to an extreme and now we have a patient that is sick. I'm trying to avoid getting to the life support stage, much less CPR. The oldest Scouts have succumbed to sports and the fumes. Half the troop is under the age of 13 and a quarter is under the age of 12. We are going to have to actually teach the PLC, such that it is, how to do the skills and then get them to retain the information long enough to teach it to their patrols.