CalicoPenn

There's no set time requirement for the Service Project beyond "as much as is necessary for you to demonstrate your leadership of others". If your son believes that he has sufficiently proven his leadership of others and is satisfied with the outcome of his project, and the teacher is satisfied with the project (I don't get a vibe that the teacher is looking for more beyond what the project was, the vibe I get is that she is happy with what was done and the project is done), then get the approriate signatures and go for the Board of Review. If your son feels that 10-hours aren't enough (and I notice that you mention those are his 10-hours - what about any hours of the people he was leading to help with the project - weren't there people who helped him install the shelves? - the people he was leading for his leadership service project) and wants to add something else for his own peace of mind, then he could work with the teacher to identify another need in the band room.

Just food for thought

Calico

Local - I think the answer to your question about why a kid on a BSA campout that goes missing is fodder for national news is simple - The news media responds most often when a story has a "hook". Being a Boy Scout on a camping trip and going missing (or starting a forest fire, etc.) gets news treatment because there is an image of what a Boy Scout is in the US, and anything that deviates from that collective image Americans have of Boy Scouts is the hook. Our image of a Boy Scout is a young person who does a lot of camping and hiking, spends time outdoors, learns how to use map and compass, learns woodcraft skills, etc. In that image, it is inconceivable that a Boy Scout would get lost in the woods - Boy Scouts are masters of the woods, we can walk through any woods anywhere and never get lost. Yes - I know that is not the reality, but it is the image. When it comes to news media, it's not the reality that matters but the image. A 12 year old non-Boy Scout gets lost in the woods and it's a local story, maybe - why? Because he's not expected to be an expert in the woods so its not surprising that he got lost. A 12 year old Boy Scout gets lost in the woods and it becomes a national story because he's expected to be an expert in the woods so should never get lost.

It's like the runner Jim Fixx - Well-known long distance runner Jim Fixx dies of a heart attack while on a run and it's national news - any other schlub dies of a heart attack while on a run and it might not even merit a mention in his own obituary. No one expected Jim Fixx to die while running - thats the hook.

At the same time, the image of a Boy Scout often works against the BSA when it's good news to be reported. Those two brothers who recently found a lost hiker in the woods a couple of months back? They were Boy Scouts but from the national news media, you wouldn't know it. Even the local media, with one exception, didn't make too big a deal out of them being Boy Scouts at one time - Why? I believe it's because our image of Boy Scouts is that they always do good deeds, find lost people, help guide people through the fog and save lives. It's expected so it's not important to the story. A Boy Scout is supposed to do that so it's not unusual and therefore not newsworthy. Like the firefighter who rushes in to a burning building and hauls out a child or adult - it may get a brief mention (unless its exceptionally heroic) in a story in the newspaper, and that story may not even mention the firefighters name. If some civilian passerby does the same thing, it's front page news, with pictures, and awards by mayors. Why? It's expected of firefighters - it's not expected of Bob the Accountant from down the street.

Calico

To confirm what John-in-KC has already stated, your unit will be allowed to recommend one adult for membership in the OA to the Lodge Adult Selection Committee this year if you have less than 50 boys in the unit, provided that you have eligible boys for election into the OA and hold an election this year that results in at least one boy being elected to the Order. If you hold an election this year, and no one is elected, you can't recommend an adult for membership. If you have 51 to 100 members, you can recommend 2 adults, 101 to 150 members, 3 adults, and so on.

As for age - there are no age requirements for the OA. Anyone who gives you an opinion on what the minimum age should be is giving you just that, an opinion, and that opinion holds no weight of regulation.

The requirements are simple. Be a registered Boy Scout; have approval of the Unit Leader before the election; hold, at a minimum, the rank of First Class (at time of election); and finally, experience 15 days and nights of BOY SCOUT camping (note - it says Boy Scout camping - that means camping with the Troop (or other BSA group) as a Boy Scout - NOT the family camping trip to the Smokey Mountains or wherever), within the 2 years prior to election (if you can fit in all 15 days in one year, thats fine), with one, and no more than one, long-term resident camp of 6 days and 5 nights approved and under the auspices and standards of the Boy Scouts of America (Boy Scout Summer Camp, BSA High Adventure trip, Troop Summer Camp/High Adventure Trip with approved trip forms). That's all there is - note, no minimum age requirements.

Please keep this mind when having elections though. You are electing members to the National(Camping)Honor Society of the BSA. Thats all. These boys are being recognized by their peers for the service they have done for their troops while camping. You are not electing members to serve the OA, or to represent your Troop at OA functions. Don't think of these elections as opportunities to help make changes in your local chapter. I really dislike folks denigrating OA members as just "patch and sash" collectors because the boys don't participate in the OA. People who make those claims don't truly understand what the Order of the Arrow is all about. The OA makes it quite clear, the first duty of OA members is to their own units! There are many boys that do give plenty of their time to the OA - they may become Chapter and Lodge officers, and committee chairs. Most of the time, these Lads are coming from fairly strong units where their time away from the unit working with their Chapters and Lodges don't hurt their own units, or are older "adult" members of their Troops while still remaining eligible youth members of the OA. Any Chapter or Lodge Adviser worth their salt would gently steer an active OA member back to helping their unit as a first priority if that unit is struggling to get things done.

Here is the real question to ask of an OA member in your Troop that is not active within the Chapter and Lodge - is that Scout serving as a primary cheerleader/promoter for Scout camping within your unit? If he is, then he is doing the number one job the OA requests of it's members. If he isn't, then he should be reminded what that patch on his left pocket flap signifies.

The OA is your units opportunity to recognize worthy boys in your unit, no matter what age they may be. Keep that as your primary focus, and the rest will fall into play. If the boys become more active in the OA, thats great. If they don't, thats great too (especially if they are active in promoting camping within your own unit).

CalicoPenn

aka

Ni hil i so hin

Vigil Honor Member

Order of the Arrow

My opinion, let them stay registered, as long as they are paying their dues. I like the idea of asking them to donate to the FOS program as well. Lisa brings up a good point about listing them on the roster - how about listing them as "emeritus" members? The Scouter Reserve position that Ed brings up is worth looking into as well, though you might want to check with the Council to see if they allow that position.

One thing that does trouble me is the use of "ancient troop accounts" to pay for their registration. I've never been a big fan of "troop accounts" and this is one of the reasons why. Though you give no details as to how your troop account program runs, hopefully, it was only available to the youths. If it was a troop account that they paid into (like a troop savings account for activities), then a check for the balance should have been written to them on their 18th birthday. If it was a troop account that was funded through time given to fundraising efforts, then the unused balance should have rolled into the Troops general account (use it or lose it). I might make an exception if the lad is active in the OA or Venturing (or the Troop as an ACTIVE ASM) until he is 21, or maybe for a lad that has gone off to college, until undergrad graduation - but those would be about the only exceptions I'd make. If it was a mixed account (fundraising and paid into) I would determine how much was paid in, how much was entered in as fundraising credits, how much was paid out (all as a total over the life of the account) and only write a refund check if the total amount paid in (not fundraised in) was higher than the total amount spent, and then only for the difference between what was paid in and what was paid out. All monies "earned" from fundraising rolls into the Troop's general account.

Calico

I love the title to this thread and keep trying to come up with a obverse to it - something like "Note to Cubbers: Your Meetings Look Like Friday Nights at Chucky Cheese to Boy Scouters" but frankly that doesn't advance the true nature of the discussion.

Yep, Boy Scout meetings can be boring. Yep, there are times when the "ideal" meeting plan just doesn't happen (doing an active game on a Monday night in 10 degree above temps might just not happen at all). Yep, sometimes bringing in an outside person, like a merit badge counselor, to teach a skill just doesn't work out as one hoped. Yep, there might not be any patrol yells, singing, cheering, even patrol flags at a meeting. I was in my school's choir when I was in Junior High School and I wouldn't have liked singing at the Troop meeting - it was an around the campfire activity for us (stupid songs in cars and busses the exception of course - key words being stupid (no John Jacob Jingleheimer - we're talking 99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall or those slightly "risque" songs you wouldn't dare sing in front of the parents).

I wonder about those Troops that make elaborate plans for meetings when they know Webelos are coming to visit. Dutch Oven Cobblers? Bet it happens at one meeting a year - and guess which meeting that is. The rest of the year? Probably those same boring meetings the other Troops have.

Try to visit a Troop more than just once before making a decision. And get a copy of the upcoming event plans for the year. See if someone can talk about the events that took place the last year or two. You may go to a meeting that is fantastic and think this is the Troop to go to but if they do the same campouts and events year after year, is it really the best one for you? That Troop with the boring meeting? They may also be the Troop that forgoes a typical summer camp every other or third year to do an all-Troop backpacking trip to Isle Royale or canoeing in the Quetico, or a horsepack trip in Colorado. Remember to also keep in mind that unlike in Cub Scouts, where every boy in the Den is working on the same rank advancement, in a Troop, you will have boys working on 7 different ranks, a possible 120 (or so) different merit badges, and a number of skill/specialty awards (Paul Bunyan, Mile Swim, Hornaday Award) all at their own pace, yet all meeting together. Think watching a skill session for a Second Class rank requirement is boring for Cub Scout to watch? Try being a Life Scout who has likely not only seen it multiple times, but has taught it a few times too.

Try to visit the Troop meetings from beginning to end too - you may very well have done so but its easy to get the impression from the post that you showed up for 20 minutes or so during a small section of the meeting. As a couple of others have pointed out, think of it from the Cubs perspective - what might be boring to an adult, might be fascinating to a Cub - especially if the older boys are engrossed in the presentation. The "old man" teaching the aviation merit badge may have been boring to you but how were the Scouts behaving? Were they attentive or were they fidgeting? I'd be interested in a follow-up - how many Scouts went on to get their Aviation Merit Badge - and how many started saving up for flying lessons?

Just food for thought.

CalicoPenn

Beavah,

I'm with ya - AND 'agin ya on this (being one of the moderate progressive mid-age nowhere near ready for coothood persuasion).

I'd almost fully agree that bans are pretty stupid - but since I didn't see any qualifier used like the word "most" as in "most bans are pretty darn stupid" I can't fully agree.

I think bans come about due to lack of common sense. To me, the stupid bans are because the people doing the banning lack common sense which leads to those absurd bans on books, wreaths, flags, etc.

Some bans come about because we, the general public, don't necessarily share the same common sense (thus the sense can't really be called common) so bans are put in place to keep us all on the same page. Such bans would, in my opinion, fall out of that "most" qualifier and I would consider them reasonable, good bans - like bans on open fires in Utah during extreme drought and dry conditions, or bans on doing 70 mph in a school zone, or bans on shooting/collecting endangered species. I think we accept these kinds of bands without believing they take away our freedoms because we understand that one of the responsibilities of living in a free society is looking out for each other and being good stewards of the place in which we live.

Then there are those middle of the road bans - bans that in the short term may be good but in the long run are bad - the bans that should be considered temporary until people/places can adjust. I think your example of the snowboarders fits here. My first reaction when I heard about those bans was that the bans were absolutely ridiculous and based on prejudice. Then I thought of your second notion - there were safety issues involved until Snowboarders and Skiiers could get used to each other and learn the way each other moved. In most cases, after I read the arguments of those ski hills banning snowboarders a little more closely, it was also to give the mountains a chance to rearrange their physical plants, to give snowboarders challenging hills that didn't also mean they would hit (or be hit by) skiers. It would have taken just one fatal collision on a run between a skier and snowboarder to see a permanent ban. In this case, a temporary ban, though frustrating, served a useful purpose.

Calico

There is only one question to ask of course: What is the air-speed velocity of an unladen European Swallow.

Calico

No official rule that I know of states there must be at least 2 boys to a tent. But, it sure does make sense for all the reasons folks have stated. It sounds like your Troop has such a policy. Giant Kudos to your SPL for recognizing a potential problem down the road by making an exception - pulling an older Scout from one of the patrols sounds like a good solution. If your Troop has such a policy, the only exception I could think of would be the case of a sick, potentially contagious lad at a long-term camp (I'm not thinking serious illness, I'm thinking a flu-like virus that might "knock" the lad out of action for a day or two).

Calico

Good question, Lisa. I'm going to take a guess at the answer - I think it's a good guess based on what we know about the BSA'a advancement program - feel free to disagree.

My guess as to why the BSA doesn't require its Scouts to earn a religious award is because there is no uniformity in the various religious awards. Each denomination runs their own awards program and sets up the requirements for their specific award.

We know that according to the advancement policies of the BSA, no person or Council may add or subtract requirements from ranks and merit badges. This rule exists to make sure there is uniformity in the awarding of ranks and merit badges. A Scout earning the First Aid Merit Badge in California will have had to pass the same requirements as a Scout in New Jersey. No regional or local variations - just like McDonalds - a Big Mac in Alaska looks and tastes the same as a Big Mac in Florida (Hmmmm - how long has the BSA had these rules, anyway - could Ray Kroc have gotten his inspiration from the Scouts?)

Since all Scouts must follow the same rules for rank and merit badges, it makes sense (to me) that the BSA wouldn't require earning a religious award since all Scouts will be following different rules for their specific religious awards. Some religious awards are more difficult to earn than others - therefore the playing field isn't level.

It's unlikely that the BSA would want to try to develop it's own religious award for all Scouts to earn. Given the diversity of religions in Scouts, it would likely cause a large drop-off in membership (no matter how you develop it, you're probably going to offend everyone).

Calico

If you have an EMT-B on staff, and they are the highest certified emergency care provider, they may automatically become the "primary first aid officer" at camp. In most states, the highest state certified emergency care provider on scene of an injury is in charge - a 16-year old EMT-B wouldn't be an exception - they're certified by the state and are required to act according to state mandated protocols (which, btw, also makes them a mandatory reporter of suspected child abuse). The only people that can prevent that EMT-B from giving proper care would be the patient (and 12 year olds can't legally consent to turn down care) or the patients parent. The age of the EMT-B doesn't matter, as long as they are certified by the state, or, in case of working at a camp that is not in the same state as their license, are covered by reciprocal agreements.

That doesn't mean your 16-year old EMT-B should also be your camp Health Officer - the camp Health Officer would take charge of health records, and in most cases, Scoutmasters of units should be the ones handling routine medications for their units, acting in "loco parenti". In the case of certain asthma inhalers and epinephrine auto-injectors, EMT-B's are trained in the proper use and you might want that person to be there, especially if dealing with it on an emergency basis (a trained EMT-B can prevent a patient who is panicking from overusing their inhaler, or the epi-injector).

Calico

I use a 4-LED 3-AAA battery headlamp from Black Diamond. It has three brightness settings, and can also be set so that the lights flash on and off (my best guess as to why this feature is that a flashing light will attract someones attention faster than a non-flashing light, in case one is misplaced (hate the word lost) or injured - but that's only my guess). I wear it under a baseball cap which also helps concentrate the light on what I'm looking at - usually something I'm reading/writing, or cooking - it acts as a visor reflector preventing too much light from escaping upwards. This works best will ball caps that have velcro enclosures at the back.

I wish I had one of these when I was a Scout for setting up tents, etc. in the dark. On the other hand, since I hated carrying anything in my hands when I went for walks (not even walking staffs) because I like to be free to pick things up and look at them when I walk, I got used to walking at night by the light of the night sky rather than the light of my flashlight. Use a flashlight when walking at night and you'll see just the area in front of you. Use your night adjusted eyes and you'll see further in front of you and around you. Had I a headlamp, I might not have truly learned how to "see" at night.

I still carry a 3-C Cell maglight in my possibles bag (a day pack I use to carry any thing I might possibly need or want when car camping - a combination first aid kit, mechanic bag (multi-tools, knife, duct tape, rope, extra batteries), emergency kit (space blanket, flint and steel, extra food, extra clothing, wet weather gear and TP), naturalist kit (binocs, digital camera, magnifying glass, a couple of field guides, zip-locks), and entertainment kit (a silly dice game, cards, book, journal). When not car-camping, I'll pull a few items out of this bag for my backpack). I use the Maglight when I want to really shine light on something in the dark - an Owl in a tree, for instance, because the headlights are great for close work and reading, but not very good for detailed distance viewing.

Calico

Though technically, the Chief Scout Executive would be the LAST resort, I did indeed mean the Scout Executive, or the "Chief of the Fire"

Calico

On the first question - regarding participation by OA members in order for a unit to hold elections - the Chapter is DEAD WRONG. Fight it - and fight it hard. Go immediately to the Lodge Chief (everyone seems to want to go to the Lodge Adviser first - but the first person to talk to is the Lodge Chief - the OA is a Youth Led, Youth Run organization - give the Lodge Chief the opportunity to get the situation corrected - and a good Lodge Chief will do so immediately). Only if you don't get full agreement from the Lodge Chief that what the Chapter is doing is wrong, then go to the Lodge Adviser, and the Lodge Staff Adviser. The last resort is the Chief Scout Executive - let the chain of command work first.

Chapters are an optional component of the Lodge - they are there to perform the Lodge's business on a more local level - this Chapter is making up a rule without the authority to do so. But before bringing out the big guns, let the right people (the Lodge Chief and his staff) persuade the Chapter that what it is doing is wrong. By the way, the Guide for Officers and Advisers has a statement that applies to this situation - it clearly states "Arrowmen are expected first to give service to and be active in their own units. Then as time permits, they can assist the lodge in (activities)". There is no requirement that an Arrowman be active in his Lodge (or Chapter) - as long as they continue to pay their annual dues, they are a member.

On the second question: From the OA Guide for Officers and Advisers: "Before the election, the OA team must secure from the unit leader verification that at least 50 percent of the registered active unit membership is present. If at least 50 percent is not present, an election cannot be held" So the answer is True - in order for an election to be held, 50% of the registered active members must be present.

If 50% aren't present at one meeting, that shouldn't be a barrier to elections that year - most Lodges and Chapters will try to do another election at another time - within reason, of course - if you can't get it together for 4 or more meetings in a row, then I for one wouldn't blame the election team for giving up on the unit for the year. But - note carefully the wording - it doesn't state 50 percent of the registered members - it states 50 percent of the registered ACTIVE members. Then it states that it is the Unit Leader that verifies that 50 percent of the registered active members are present. What does this do? It gives the Unit Leader wide latitude to determine just what is meant by active - and I can tell you from personal experience that there have been, and probably are now, and likely always will be, Unit Leaders who play a liiiiittle loose with the definition of Active. For instance, if you have 20 registered members, only 9 lads at the meeting, you have less than 50% - unless of course the unit leader makes a determination that Joe Scout and Bill Scout attend maybe 1 meeting every month, and maybe do a campout every couple of months so they aren't really active, so they don't count - now it's down to 18 and viola - you've hit 50%. I will also admit here and now that when I was an OA election team member and a Scoutmaster told me he was 1 or 2 boys short of 50%, I would do a "guided discovery" with him before he verified that to see if there maybe were a couple lads that weren't really that active (and the reason for this "out" is, I believe, so that units with a good portion of older scouts who are often active in school activities or working, aren't penalized just because members of the Leadership Corp, who might only make a meeting every other month, aren't in attendance) and if the Scoutmaster agreed, then he could verify that the number of members needed for the election were present. A fairly active OA team who attends district events generally have an idea of how large the units they are going to is anyway - I knew from going to camporees, first aid meets, klondikes, etc., which units were pretty large and which were pretty small - if I walked into a meeting of one of the units that always had a large contingent of lads at a camporee and only saw 8 or 10 boys, I might just be questioning if we shouldn't be doing the election another time.

Hope this helps - contact the Lodge Chief and get yourself an election.

CalicoPenn

FB - I misunderstood your role in your post - sounds like you're doing just what you should be doing in regards to elections.

If the Lodge Advisor isn't doing anything for you, go directly to the Lodge Chief - and put a little bug in the ear of the professional staff liason.

CP

Ok - I tried to edit my message to add this but I got a message saying I was not authorized to do so, so instead I'll just add another post.

In a way this relates to the thread about youth membership versus adult membership in the OA. Most of the time, the Lodge leadership, and often the Chapter leadership is made up of the older youth members of the OA - chances are high that the Lodge Chief is over 18. I'm pretty sure that the National Officers are over 18. BSA trains the lads to be leaders, the OA is where a lot of them really put it into practice.

Should you approach the Lodge to get help (and I strogly encourage that), they'll likely find a 17 to 19 year old OA Member going to High School or Community College with a drivers license, and some time that doesn't interfere with any Troop leadership positions (probably not someone working on Eagle at this point) to help pull the chapter back together. This person would be in a good position to attend Roundtables to talk up the OA and the Chapter and to make appointments with Troops to visit and talk to the Troops OA members. He'll have a different skill set in relating to Scoutmasters in identifying potential Chapter leaders/active members from Troops without setting up fears of poaching the Troops good youth leaders.

Calico

Is it the OA Chapter that is in trouble or the OA Lodge? If the Chapter is faltering, it is up to the Lodge leadership (and that's the youth - Lodge Chief, Vice Chiefs, etc) to step in a get things back on track - it isn't the District's responsibility (most Chapters are organized so they correspond with Districts). Time to approach the Lodge and tell them the Chapter may no longer be in a position to carry out their duties.

When it comes to Troop elections, call-out ceremonies, etc., if the Chapter isn't there, or can't do the work, the Lodge will have to do it - they can't just say since there is no Chapter in the District, there will be no elections in the District. Lodges are fully responsible for all aspects of the OA Program - they may choose to delegate to Chapters but that doesn't abrogate their responsibilities to the OA program - Chapters are an option, they aren't required.

Why are you in charge of getting more "patch wearers" elected? This is the job of the youths - in the OA more than anywhere within the BSA, the organization is youth-led, and youth-run! Adults are advisors only - in the truest sense of the word. If there are no youth in your Chapter who can do this, turn it over to the Lodge and let them handle it - and let them come in to revitalize the Chapter - it's what they were elected and charged to do. It wouldn't be unheard of for a few people from another Chapter to come in to your Chapter as the Chapter Leadership and start rebuilding the program - you have some young members who are making the effort to attend and with proper training by the right people (and those people are other youth members) you might very well see your Chapter turned around in less than a year.

I know it's hard to stand around with the hands in the pockets and let it happen, but thats the way this particular program works - Strong Youth Leadership, Weak Adult Leadership.

You do have resources to go to - and that resource is the Lodge - its hard to consider going outside the District for help but to reiterate, this is the Lodge's program - and problem to solve - not your Districts.

In the Lodge of my youth, had a Chapter Advisor came to us with this dilemma, one of the Vice Chiefs would have immediately been appointed with the task of developing a plan of action. But then again, in the Lodge of my youth, the Vice Chiefs were required to attend at least 2 Chapter Meetings every month (if meetings were held in that month - most Chapters didn't meet in the Summer or in December) - by the end of the year, we would have visited all of the Chapters in the Lodge at least 3 times.

Calico

No, there is a specific rule - All members of the OA under the age of 21 are Youth Memebers and to be elected as a Youth Member, one must have earned First Class.

Whatever one's position in Boy Scouts is - Troop Member, Assistant Scoutmaster, Committee Member, District Committee Member - in the OA, if you are under 21, you are a Youth Member. In the Order of the Arrow, there are no 18-21 year old Scouters.

When dealing with the OA membership definitions, ignore completely the BSA membership definitions - they don't match.

The "He's an adult in the BSA" doesn't matter in the Order of the Arrow - think of them as two different organizations which in a large sense they are - OA may be part of the BSA, but it is still a separate division, just like Venturing, where youth members are people under 21, and Learning for Life.

Since the two organizations are separate, with their own membership requirements and rules, there is no hole to be found.

Calico

Yep - sorry - I made a huge blunder - Mea Culpa. As nldscout and SWScouter pointed out, there is no limit to youth member elections - so just ignore that very last part.

Calico

There are two different things here - Den Chief and Day Camp assistant.

Den Chief: The Den Chief is requested by the Cubmaster (usually after a Den Leader has requested one) and appointed by the SPL/Scoutmaster from any one interested in being the Den Chief. The Pack Committee, in consultation with the Cubmaster, assigns the Den Chief to a Den. The Den Leader may request a specific person, which is often how a person becomes a Den Chief in the first place, but it is still up to the Pack Committee to assign that person. At this point, the Den Chief takes on a rather unique role within the Pack - he is not a member of the Pack, and is not registered with the Pack, yet he becomes part of the Pack's leadership team. He is not just another Cub - he is a leader and takes on leadership responsibilities.

The Den Chief is an official POR - no Scoutmaster may decline to count a Den Chief's service as a POR for Rank Advancement - IF the Den Chief has been properly appointed (If a Cub Leaders son becomes a "De Facto" Den Chief, without appointment by the Troop, his service doesn't count since he isn't officially a Den Chief - Packs may not make a Scout a Den Chief, only that Boy Scout's own Troop may do so).

The qualifications for Den Chief are simple:

Den Chief Qualifications: Is an older Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, or Venturer. Selected by the senior patrol leader and Scoutmaster, Varsity Scout Coach, or Venturing Advisor at the request of the Cubmaster. Approved by the Cubmaster and pack committee for recommendation to the den leader. Registered as a youth member of a troop, team, or crew. (From

the BSA's own website - Scouting.org).

Webelos Den Chief Qualifications: Is an older, experienced Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, or Venturer. Selected by the senior patrol leader and Scoutmaster, Varsity Scout Coach, or Venturing Advisor at the request of the Cubmaster or Webelos den leader. Preferably a former Cub Scout; ideally at least First Class rank. Approved by the Cubmaster and pack committee for recommendation to the Webelos den leader. Registered as a youth member of a troop, team, or crew. (Also from BSA's own website).

As you can see, the First Class Rank is mentioned only for the Webelos Den Chief - and only as an ideal - not a requirement. There is also a preference for the Webelos Den Chief to have been a former Cub Scout - but again, not a requirement.

All that being said, it appears that Troops have wide discretion on who they'll appoint as Den Chiefs - if your son's Troop will only appoint Den Chiefs that are at least First Class, then you'll have to accept that - with the "First Class in first year" emphasis, it shouldn't be hard for your son to get his First Class and express interest in becoming a Den Chief. If the Scoutmaster doesn't like the program for some reason, this is a good opportunity to remind him that the Den Chief program serves as one of the best recruiting tools for his unit, encouraging Cubs to cross over and join his unit. You state you live in a one Troop town which makes it more difficult, but if I were the Cubmaster wanting Den Chiefs and not getting any cooperation at all from the Scoutmaster of the only Troop in town, I would be seriously considering starting up a brand new Scout Troop with the next batches of Webelos from the Pack - and making it a point to tell the Scoutmaster that I will be strongly encouraging the boys in the Pack not to consider joining his Troop in favor of the new one. But that's just me being feisty (because I can't stand officious Scoutmasters who take opportunities away from the Boys because of their own ego or ignorance of the program).

As for Issue Two - Day Camp (and by extension - Webelos Woods). You're the Day Camp Director - is there a requirement by YOU or the COUNCIL that Boy Scouts assisting at Day Camp be Den Chiefs? If so, why??? Aren't you limiting your recruitment pool with such a requirement? Or is this the Troops idea? Is it YOUR or your COUNCIL's requirement that a Boy Scout assisting at Day Camp be 14 years old and First Class (no "hearing rumblings - if you are the Day Camp Director, you should KNOW the answer to this) or is it the Troops idea? Is it YOUR or the COUNCILS requirement that they take Den Chief training? Or is it the Troops idea? Any Boy Scout can take Den Chief training without being or becoming a Den Chief - and, by the way, that Scout does NOT need permission from his Scoutmaster to take that training. It sounds like your Council is giving Den Chief training in March - you have every right to send your son to this training without getting permission from his Scoutmaster - and any Scoutmaster that would refuse permission in the first place should be placed on immediate furlough until he gets his head out of his ....

Now here's the best part - for you as Day Camp Director - as long as you are following the Council's policy on Staffing, you can bring anyone you want in as staff - the Scout does not need any approvals, permissions, etc. from his Scout Troop or Scoutmaster - he is working as a member of the staff, and is representing the Day Camp - NOT as a member of his Troop. His Troop and Scoutmaster gets absolutely no say in the staffing, or staffing requirements, of Day Camp, Summer Camp, Webelos Woods (sounds like a District or Council event), etc.

If your son, and any of his buddies in his Troop want to work at Day Camp, and are otherwise qualifed by your Council's Day Camp Staffing policies, the Scoutmaster can't stop them - and you don't even need to ask him.

At Day Camp - do not call them Den Chiefs - they aren't Den Chiefs - Den Chief is a specific position of responsibility in the Boy Scouts - find some other position name for them - in fact, find some other name for the "Dens" at Day Camp - unless they are comprised of the actual Dens of a Pack, they may be mixed with boys from other Dens and even Packs. At the Day Camp I worked at many years ago, each group of Cubs were given an Indian Tribal Name (Kiowa, Souix, Crow, etc.) and we called these groups by the generic Tribes - the Boy Scouts assisting the Tribes were called...Tribe Chiefs. Be creative and stay away from "Den Chief" to describe the lads at Day Camp.

CalicoPenn

The guidelines are clear in the Order of the Arrow Guide for Officers and Advisers. The Guide lists what the eligibility requirements are for Youth Members and for Adult Members. It further defines what is a Youth Member and what is an Adult Member. It defines these terms for the Order of the Arrow - not for the Boy Scouts of America. Though OA is a part of the BSA, their membership definitions are different. It is clear that for the purposes of the OA, it is the OA's definition of youth and adult that are the driving force, and shouldn't be conflated with the BSA's definitions. So when discussing membership eligibility, ignore the BSA definitions altogether because they are meaningless when it comes to the OA.

In the OA, a Youth Member is a person under 21. And adult member is a person 21 or older. Rank, positions, etc. in the BSA does not matter (except for 1st Class rank for youth members). An 18 year old Assistant Scoutmaster may be an Adult member of the BSA, but he is still a Youth member of the Order of the Arrow. Therefore, an 18 year old Assistant Scoutmaster who is nominated to be a member of the Order must meet the same requirements as any other youth member of the Order, including attaining the rank of First Class - and must be ELECTED by the other youth members of the Troop. As SWScouter pointed out, an 18-20 year old adult member of a troop is allowed to vote in OA elections of their units, because they would be otherwise eligible to be a youth member of the Order.

The way to explain it is just this way - the OA has its own defintions of youth and adult and you are bound by those definitions. It should be pretty rare that this situation would come up.

Though it sounds unfair, consider another possible scenario - your unit gets 4 nominations in a year and you have only 4 eligible scouts. As a kicker, you also have an eligible ASM who isn't a member of the Order but had earned his First Class rank in the past - so you add him to the ballot. If he wins election, one of your BSA youth members won't. Who would you rather discuss the unfairness of the matter with - your ASM who can't become a member of the OA for another 2 years because he isn't eligible, or the 13 year old Scout who couldn't become a member because one of the Adults in his unit took his place.

Calico

The Council is right, in my opinion, not to be offering a refund (even though it is only $10), though their reasoning is, let's just say it - dumb. Obviously the person you talked to didn't give it any logical thought. The reason the Council should not be giving a refund, and that your unit shouldn't push it, is that even though you folks decided not to attend (a good decision on your part given the circumstances/parameters and support from your parents and youth you received), Council did not cancel or reschedule the event. Other units attended, either camping, or as day trippers. Since the event went on as scheduled, Council should not be obligated to refund the money of those units that chose not to attend, even if those units had a good reason. Imagine that you made reservations to see a play, paid for the tickets, then decided not to attend for some reason - it's unlikely that you would ask the theater to refund your money if the performance went on just because you decided (for whatever good reason you had) not to go. Had Council cancelled the event, then they should refund and eat any associated costs, but since they didn't cancel, those expenses were incurred and still needed to be paid (side note, the Staff Training Center may need to be heated to keep the pipes from freezing but there is a cost differential between "heating" a cabin to a constant 60 degrees which is sufficient to keep the pipes from freezing and heating it to a human comfort level of 70 degrees). It's a tough situation for you because you were right to not attend, and Council was right not to refund since the event went on without you. It was ultimately your choice not to attend, not even as day trippers, so Council should not be on the hook for your decision. Hopefully you can explain it that way to the parents, (since Council wasn't able to) and they'll understand from that perspective, and restore their FOS.

As for the question "when is it too cold" - the answer is "when you and the Scouts believe it is too cold to be out camping". It's a subjective thing, even with National Weather Service "warnings and advisory's" which is just that - advice. For a Southern Californian, 40 degrees above may be too cold, for an Alaskan, it might not be too cold until it hits negative 35. For a South Dakotan, 20 degrees may be just fine. For a Mainer, 20 below might be just fine. It depends on where you are, how acclimated you are (had it been consistently cold in South Dakota the past couple of months (under 20) instead of the last couple of weeks, you might all have felt acclimatized to the cold and not felt the temps over the weekend were that much of a burden), what equipment you have, how much experience you have, etc. etc. etc.

I was an OKPIK instructor in Maine, at the Maine National High Adventure Base, back when OKPIK was a National High Adventure program (before it was rolled out at Council level). There were a couple of weekends when we headed out with temperatures expected to be below zero - proper training, proper equipment, a well-planned and rehearsed emergency procedure makes all the difference. My favorite trips that winter happened to be on the weekends when it was below zero because every unit wanted to build a giant quinzhee to call home rather than sleep in the tents, and a quinzhee can be warm as toast on a cold winters night.

Calico

A modest proposal - drop "Venturing" and bring back "Exploring" - it was a prefectly good program that didn't need to be "fine-tuned" by the BSA. Venturing came about because someone noticed the growth in "outdoor" Exploring and thought it would be a great time to separate the career Exploring component from the outdoor adventure Exploring component. Obviously, these people were never Explorers.

Keep Learning for Life as a school-based program and let career-oriented (but not school-based) Explorers decide if they want to stay with Learning for Life or stay under the Exploring rubric, as real BSA Units.

I belonged to three different Explorer Posts, and had friends in many other Explorer Posts throughout the Council. Explorer Posts were still under the "District" but because of the age of the participants (many of us could drive), and the wide-ranging interests of the Posts, and the generally lower number of Posts in a district compared to Packs and Troops, there tended to be more Council-wide crossover and get togethers for Explorer Posts than for Packs and Troops. At our Scout-O-Rama's, Packs and Troops would set up by District, but Posts all set up together in an Exploring section, no matter what District we came from. We even had a few all-council Explorer post only "Camporees".

It was always interesting to see a couple of Medical Careers Explorer Posts (almost exclusively girls), a couple of Police Explorer Posts (almost exclusively boys), a Fire Department Post, an Emergency Services Post or three, a couple of High Adventure Posts, an Indian Ceremonies Post, a couple of Sea Scout Ships, etc. interacting with each other - we may have worn different uniforms, and have had different interests but there was one thing we all had in common - we were Explorers! And we were living examples of the next step in Scouts for older lads.

It wouldn't have helped your District Camping Chair though, I'm afraid - we were Co-ed back in the seventies, and most of the units (the Medical Careers Posts being the major exception) enjoyed camping no matter what our interest was.

CalicoPenn

I've got to say that I'm really confused, or perhaps way behind the times.

The Eagle Court of Honor isn't a wedding, or a bar mitzvah, or a graduation party - it is a Court of Honor, and like other Court's of Honor, should be planned and executed by the Unit - NOT by the Eagle Scout and his parents. Would you require a boy getting his First Class rank to plan his own Court of Honor? Of course not! It's a Troop event - and as such is planned by the Troop - the same goes for the Eagle Court of Honor. Is it any wonder that some new Eagle Scouts don't want a Court of Honor if what they've seen in the past is Super-Parents developing elaborate ceremonies?

When a Troop gets word that the lad has passed the EBOR, the Troop should order the Eagle Scout presentation kit then start to plan the Court of Honor - the Eagle Scout (and his parents) should be consulted on scheduling, and who should be invited to be speaker(s) at the Court of Honor. Then the Troop gets to work to plan and prepare for the event. The Scout and his parents should get to stand back and let others do the work (they'll be busy inviting friends and neighbors - their proper role). After all, the Court of Honor is to HONOR the Scout AND his parents. Yes, this is an oportunity for the Scout to thank boatloads of people, but that is not ultimately what an Eagle Court of Honor is about - what it is ultimately about is the TROOP HONORING the Scout.

Every once in a while you might have a lad like MollieDuke encountered - if that's the case, do just what MollieDuke did and let them write the script if they desire too - but remember, it is still the Troop's ceremony (I'm very impressed by MollieDuke's ability to remind the lad that he still had to get the okiedokie from the committee) and once the script is rewritten and approved, let the Eagle sit back again and relax and enjoy the program.

When I received my Eagle (oh so many years ago), my parents and I sat down with my Explorer Post Advisor, the Scoutmaster of my Troop (I received my Eagle through my Post but the Troop and Post held a joint Court of Honor) the Committee Chairs of the Post and Troop, and the Advancement Chair of the Troop who would wrangle the planning/preparation details, and we went through some pre-planning (date and speakers) and any concerns (the Pastor of the church we were sponsored by would do the Benediction and I wanted to make sure that the Benediction was as secular as possible being I was a Wiccan - he had always been very conscious of our diverse unit during Scout Sunday's but I wanted to make sure he wouldn't be offended by the request - he wasn't and did a marvelous job) - then we just got out of the way. Rehearsal for me was mainly to know what other people would be doing when, and to get a sense of the timing of the ceremony. If your Eagle is up more than he is sitting during rehearsal, then he's too involved!

Or am I just being old fashioned??

CalicoPenn

Depends on the 4-H program. I worked as a counselor at a 4-H summer camp in Maine for two seasons. I taught...first aid, survival skills, camping, backpacking and hiking skills. Took the kids sea kayaking, canoeing, mountain climbing. All the things I taught Boy Scouts.

In all the coverage of President Gerald Ford's funeral, how prominent was any mention that he was an Eagle Scout? In all the press about Buzz Aldrin when he walked on the moon, how many times was it mentioned that he was an Eagle Scout? How many articles about Mayor Bloomberg of NYC mention that he was an Eagle Scout?

I certainly see the point that it might have been nice for the media to mention the Eagle Scout connection but the national media were concentrating on the story of the woman who was rescued, not the rescuers. The Pioneer Press is a Minnesota Paper - a Local Boy's do good story - not surprising that it mentions they were Eagle Scouts. That story was more about the rescuers, not the person rescued. Different focuses, different stories.

I call for an end to this whole "liberal media" claptrap. Consider that if this so-called "liberal media" bogeyman were out to get the BSA, it would mention in every article about certain rather unpopular people that they were Eagle Scouts. But like above, how many articles written about Fred Phelps, funeral protestor extraordinaire, mention that he was an Eagle Scout? Or Marion Berry, former drug using mayor of Washington DC?

We should use this story with the lads (and gals) in our units as an example of how the skills being taught in Scouts are useful beyond the here and now, rather than criticizing the press for not making mention of something that isn't necessarily germaine to the story.

CalicoPenn

The Junior Assistant Scoutmaster serves the same role as the ... Assistant Scoutmaster. Pull out the job description for the Assistant Scoutmaster, and you've got the same basic job description for a JASM. The only exception being any part of the ASM's job that requires the ASM to be of age (driving Scouts, etc.).

If you have ASM's serving as "Patrol Mentor", then your JASM's should be qualified (if not more qualified) to do the job.

Meechgalanne serves as a prime example of when to use the JASM POR, as opposed to the Instructor or Troop Guide POR. 17, SPL for 2 years. In a very real sense, after serving as an SPL for 2 years, becoming an Instructor or Troop Guide is a bit of a backwards step. The Instructor reports to the ASPL, and the Troop Guide works with the New Scout Patrol (if you happen to have one). The JASM reports directly to the Scoutmaster - and if used wisely, as it sounds in Meechgalanne's case, can be an incredible resource to the more senior youth leaders, like the SPL, ASPL, Instructors and Troop Guide.

SW - a 16 year old soon to be Eagle Scout who has served as SPL with the sense to want to get out of the way and let the current SPL do his thing sounds like a great candidate for JASM as well. He'll serve as a resource without any direct responsibility to the Patrol Leader's Council. He can still instruct and can still help guide a New Scout Patrol, but he doesn't have to be limited to those things. As JASM, he could help guide the Troop Guide, or instruct the Instructors.

And since someone, somewhere, is bound to ask - on campouts, the JASM should be sharing cooking/cleaning duties and eating with the Adults, though he should camp with the other Senior Youth Leaders.

CalicoPenn