CynicalScouter

I offered the alternative argument elsewhere: that JPM and BSA are not hiding anything fraudulent, but incredibly embarrassing, namely, that the debt owed on Summit is actually far, far worse than is being acknowledged (JPM is holding the note on SOME of the debt, but the rest is in those Arrow, WV notes and local government bonds or elsewhere), that it is a big deep hole into BSA has dumped hundreds of millions and is so far underwater it will never, ever see a breakeven point in our lifetimes.

Sure I can. I've sat in on similar conversations. Company officials do NOT want to disclose certain information, so they approach their counsel and ask what defenses they can lodge against disclosure. The attorneys provide the defenses and execute on them. There, the company officials are driving the litigation/defense. The attorneys approach the company officials and advise them they need to avoid disclosure. The company officials agree. There, the attorneys are driving the litigation/defense. To take the West Wing example (which again, is a bad one because it involved CRIMINAL liability) Toby wanted to blurt it all out and the lawyer told him to shut his mouth. That has Fifth Amendment and similar implications. This is a civil matter. BSA is free to share the information it has regarding Summit at any point in time. It simply refuses to do so. And it is becoming clearer and clearer that, rather than the attorneys telling BSA to not disclose, it is BSA officials (donors?) telling attorneys to find a way to prevent them from having to disclose. Two different scenarios.

There's a short and long question. The short question is really, really short and easy. The key provision is this in the BSA Charter and Bylaws (and corresponding language in ALL Local Council Charters, Bylaws and/or Articles of Incorporation. Short question: Does this mean that National can on its own volition (or by order of the court) revoke all local charters and seize assets as part of the bankruptcy? If no, end of conversation. If yes.... Longer question: Will the court order/direct the charter revocations and asset seizures?

No one is talking about blaze of glory. The point is that over, and over, and over again BSA has been asked to prove that the Summit Shell Game is legit and fork over the financials. They are refusing every step of the way. Give me a break. Some of this may be legal advice, but it is more likely that they are being advised that the MOMENT the financials are released, the Shell Game is over, so stall, stall, stall as long as you have to and hope they can get one over on the court. That's transparent? That's forthcoming for victims?

Yes, and here's the "but" I can see one limited instance in which this is relevant. If the claim is for, say, $1 million based on the TCC or BSA abuse matrix, and it can be shown that the CO's negligence or the LC's negligence accounted for 75%, then the claim vs. BSA (or rather BSA's insurance?) is down to $250,000. That of course would require a) lengthy determinations as to fault and liability and b) results in BSA National pointing fingers at LCs and COs. It is no wonder then that the COs are filing objections for the reasons noted: BSA's plans (both the toggle and global) call for the COs to get thrown under the bus and BSA to walk away from anything to do with covering or protecting them.

Because it is clear there's a portion of BSA that is going to defend Summit at all costs, even to the point of losing BSA entirely.

It said cash flow would run out. That's $0.

I want to come back around to something in the latest Century objection that I think @Eagle1993hit on but really needs to be explored, namely the $1500 "nuisance" payouts. Again, because in the end bankruptcy = math, let's use math for a second. 84,000 claimants, you need 56,000 "yes" votes from claimants in order to get an approved settlement BUT that also means it only takes 28,001 to vote "no" and the plan is scuttled. Now, let's posit that the claims come in 4 types Honest, but not valid. Yes the claimant was really abused, but the claim's not valid because the statute of limitations ran out or I don't have enough details to prove the claim. Dishonest, but superficially valid. The claimant lied, but the claim's superficially valid because it a) provides the minimum details needed and b) is from a state with a lookback window. Dishonest and facially invalid. The claimant lied but it doesn't matter because the claim a) has too few detail to be reviewable and/or b) the state has no lookback window. Honest and superficially valid. The claimant is honest, in a state with a lookback window, and has made a specific and clear claim. It will take months or years to confirm the validity and require additional documentation. Now, if I am category 4 (honest victim with a superficially valid claim) or even category 1 (honest and maybe someday my state will open up a lookback window) do I as a victim/claimant REALLY want the liars in category 2 and 3 to have a vote here? To grab their $1,500 and run, potentially approving a LESS beneficial plan? Century's arguing, in effect, the $1,500 is a BSA bribe to the liars to get them to come along and vote their way just to get this over and done with. The problem is that only gets you so far; if 28,000 claims are from liars who take the money and run, you STILL need at least 28,001 honest claims to push it over the top. BUT those 28,000 liars (if there are that many, again we don't know) may not be able to approve a plan, but they can scuttle the plan. And we don't know if it is 28 liars, 2800 liars, or 28000. This is where things have gotten to. What a mess.

True. I was thinking short-term/keep the doors open for now situation. You are correct there's got to be a 5 year plan as well. But is cash flow = $0, as BSA said in court will occur in August, then you are either selling assets/eating your seed corn or doing mass layoffs and not paying day to day expenses.

Never, in the history of BSA, has there been anything like 1 million new recruits. Even in they days of BoyPower 76 (and the fictional/fraudulent units and scouts created to meet quotas) they didn't get 1 million fake/on paper recruits. So, take that off the table. Right now BSA is at ~750,000, down from 1.2 million. National's fees are $66 and they are going up (yeah, yeah I know the official line is that a fee increase this fall to $72 is only being "discussed", but several councils already let the cat out of the bag). Assume 50% of scouts (mostly Cub Scouts) who left come back or some other amazingly wide eyed massive influx of scouts, you get back to 1 million. Again, that would be a never before seen bounce. I don't see it happening and even BSA in its filings has projected that number stay low for the next 2-3 years.

Do you really think anyone is going to care, on either side of this, to pay someone to post to this scouter forum? To what end? Holy smokes, this is an online chat forum; NO ONE here is both a) persuadable and b) in a position of authority. But sure. You got me. I'm a BSA operative, but secretly I'm working for the TCC, but that's a cover because really I'm working both sides on behalf of the Illuminati. Shhhhh!!!

See the aforementioned couch cushions. Yep, August is no real "drop dead" date. It means they'll have to sell/liquidate things in order to keep operating, but they can keep going for awhile. All the while bleeding out funds.

Bad assumption. Not a lawyer. That said, and suffice to say without giving away my employer(s), I have been inside courtrooms or law firms as a paraprofessional or court staffer most of my adult life.

Right, so do you need a vote of ALL claimants? Or all claimants who have a VALID claim? If you need/want to limit this to all VALID AND VETTED claims, yeah, that is going to take (no joke/hyperbole) years. And it could a HONEST claim and NOT VALID. For example, should a victim in a state with no lookback window (and thus NO chance for right now at least) get a vote? I'd say yes because they are surrendering any FUTURE claim if a lookback got enacted, but I can see the legal argument could be that only those with a CURRENT valid claim may vote. I'm not saying it would be persuasive/win the day, but I could see it being lodged.

I am trying to time this out. In March, BSA's lawyers told the court they would be out of cash by August. So, let's take them at their word. Based on the old plan, it was going to take 3 months (April 15 - July 26) to get from the bankruptcy judge allowing the plan to go to a vote AND (assuming the vote successful) final confirmation of the plan. Now, that would be May 19 - August 29 (assuming everything is set back 34 days). So, a few things can happen BSA can admit the "we are out of cash by August" was a bluff (let's not say lie) from the start Changing conditions allowed the cash flow to not dry out, so BSA can survive until ??? Someone (BSA Foundation?) is willing to offer a bridge loan or some version of "We found cash under the couch cushions" But that only gets BSA so far. I do honestly believe they will run out of cash at some point, whether that is July, August, or September is TBD. So, one more can kick in which the plan does NOT go out until after a June hearing by the judge puts BSA in what it had said was an impossible position.

Speaking of outrageous fees and costs: remember when Century asked that 20% of all fees be put aside to try and control the spending (mostly by BSA lawyers I might add)? TCC is prepared to set aside 20% of its fees and have them placed in a court-controlled fund until the end of this process. TCC still wants the 10% of its fees (which it has promised will go towards victims) to be left untouched/go directly into a victims fund. Will BSA do the same? We will see. All professionals continue to file quarterly fee applications so that the fee examiner can review and engage with professionals regarding potential reductions. After the fee examiner files its report with respect to a professional’s quarterly fee application, BSA shall pay the fees relating to the 20% holdback into a segregated bank account until the Court approves the quarterly fee application, at which time the cash will be held in the segregated bank account until distributed to the professional. BSA shall not use the escrowed cash absent further order of the Court after notice and hearing. The quarterly fee applications of Pachulski Stang Ziehl & Jones (“PSZJ”) shall have a partial exception to the above procedure so that half of the 20% holdback is paid to PSZJ so that it can continue to fund that portionof its earned fees into a client trust account for the benefit of theSurvivors’ Trust as set forth in PSZJ’s retention application. See [DocketNo. 292-2] at para. 23

I've been in BSA for years and my sons are in a troop. BSA survival in jeopardy? Too bad at this point given: all the foot-dragging the LIES told by local councils (that National would cover/protect them) BSA's efforts to throw COs under the bus (notice how the United Methodist Church, LDS, and other major CO groups have all filed objections to the BSA plan because it renegs on BSA's promises?) the JP Morgan Summit shell game (again, 1 hour, some phone calls, and that entire mess is cleared up; BSA simply refuses to let ANYONE look at the books, especially the TCC and the judge) the sweetheat deal with Hartford for $650 million (vs. BILLIONS in insurance coverage) the fact that even the U.S. Trustee/Department of Justice has filed papers indicating the BSA plan (global, toggle, whatever) is garbage. and of course that insulting $6000 offer I am getting very close to the point of saying "too bad" if BSA's survival is in jeopardy. Maybe that is what it will take to light a fire under them to start acting honestly and forthrightly and get a move on. At this point we are 15 months in, $120+ million in expenditures (my estimate based on latest filings) and BSA is still trying to protect Summit at literally all costs. If BSA's survival is in jeopardy at this point, it has only itself to blame. If it runs out of cash in August or September, too bad at this point

Here's the thing: she cannot do that sua sponte. As near as I can see, there has never been briefing on the question of what the exact legal status of LC assets are (do they really belong to national? Are they directly subject to the bankruptcy as a result?) If she is going to rule on that, she'll want and indeed need briefs and oral argument. Since the CO/LC question is not on the May 19 agenda, that means the earliest it could be is June but more likely July for oral argument on the CO/LC question.

Again, if BSA would be willing to turn its financials on this over to the TCC to ensure that is in fact true and not a fraudulent shell game they are play to hide assets, then I'd believe that number/those numbers. But as the TCC has pointed out (and in fact now sued BSA to force production) BSA simply refuses to provide documentation that this wasn't in fact a fraudulent debt instrument placed on Summit to make it appear more encumbered than it really is. 1 hour and a set of PDF documents emailed back and forth would settle this. Instead, BSA digging in its heels, wasting tens (if not hundreds) of thousands in legal fees rather than just turn over the financials to TCC and the judge.

It was my understanding that BSA agreed to allow for a lifting of the stay(s) and to allow those suits to be filed but NOT proceed any further in order to avoid statute of limitations deadlines.

Century is now claiming they have a whistleblower, presuambly willing to testify, that many if not most of the 95,000 claims (now 84,000) are fraudulent OR were fraudulently obtained and that ANY effort to move forward with a plan (BSA, TCC, or otherwise) needs to clear up who precisely has a valid claim BEFORE whoevers plan goes out for a vote. First, they've now provided scanned signature analysis showing that some of Proof of Claim forms were clear forgeries. Moreover, they are claiming that they have a whistleblower, ready to testify, that many if not most of the claims are fraudulent. She provided a deposition on May 11.

I hate to say it: but that entirely depends. For example, Century and a slew of other (lesser) insurance companies are in effect renewing their call for at least 2 months of discovery and vetting at it relates to the 84,000 claims. Moreover, given her track record so far, I can see more can-kicking down the road by the judge.

As a matter of fact, yes, we are in pre-trial discovery. In addition to the bankruptcy proceeding there is a parallel "adversary" proceeding filed to contest/challenge the JP Morgan/Summit shell game. Case number 21-50032 and referred to as the TCC Identified Property Action. Since THAT portion of the mediation has concluded (with JP Morgan and BSA agreeing to this shell game) anyone challenging it is no longer bound by any mediation. It is fair game for litigation. UNLIKE the bankruptcy proceeding which is happening in Bankruptcy Court for the District of Delaware, this proceeding has been filed in the District Court for the District of Delaware. Pre-trial conferences were set for 3/17, delayed until 4/15, and now 5/19 in District Court. No trial date set, but that will happen at the 5/19 pre-trial conference. BSA has filed its answer to the complaint in that adversary proceeding which pretty much says the Summit deal is fine and perfectly legal and don't you worry about a thing TCC. You can trust us.. On April 30 TCC served its discovery asking for the shell game documents to be produced (interrogatories, request for document production, etc.). BSA's refusal to respond, reply, or in anyway cooperate was mentioned in the briefs in the "main" bankruptcy: TCC is asking for one shred of evidence or documents that the Summit deal isn't fraudulent and BSA is refusing to turn over the docs. "Trust us" is the answer "the deal is legit." Which is why I said the next stage is going to be a subpoena for production directed to BSA. And if that doesn't get the message through there will be sanctions and contempt proceedings. All so BSA's shell game with Summit can be protected. But sure, quote West Wing. That's going to be a winning strategy for BSA. But sure, continue to defend BSA as just trying to do right by the victims with this shell game.

Thank you. Yes as I said before: BSA could solve the Summit/JP Morgan question in 1 hour if they so desired. Instead they opt to stonewall and withhold info.

So far, Hartford and JP Morgan would be the only ones.