CynicalScouter

3 minutes ago, David CO said:

It is easy for scouters to criticize the CO for not abiding by the charter agreement.  But these same scouters would probably be the ones who scream the loudest if their CO's were to choose to follow their consciences and not sign the charter.

No, it is real, real simple (to me at least). Don't be the CO.

As CO you are bound in three ways to comply with BSA's rules:

1) The Adult Application

Quote

I hereby certify that I agree to comply with the rules and regulations of the BSA and the local council, including the Scouter Code of Conduct.

2) The Scouter Code of Conduct

Quote

I will respect and abide by the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, BSA policies, and BSA-provided training,

3) The Charter Organization Agreement

Quote

The Chartered Organization agrees to...Conduct the Scouting program consistent with BSA rules, regulations, and policies.

If I decided at the outset that I was not going to "comply with the rules and regulations of the BSA" or "abide by the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, BSA policies, and BSA-provided training" or "Conduct the Scouting program consistent with BSA rules, regulations, and policies" I simply would have decline to be the CO.

I would NOT have signed and affirmed all those documents knowing I had no intention to "comply", "abide" and "conduct" myself accordingly.

But as I said, that's just me.

15 minutes ago, David CO said:

I am retired now.  I was an IH.  The CO (in David CO) is for Chartered Organization.

I joined the forum, years ago, because I felt the viewpoint of the Chartered Organization was under-represented here.  The scouter viewpoint is abundant.  The council viewpoint is here, often quoted by scouters and executives alike.  But the CO's viewpoint is largely missing. 

Then as COR (and possibly IH) you would have had to have signed that Adult Leader Application that includes that you "certify" and "affirm" you would comply with BSA's rules.

If you were able in your heart of hearts able to sign that knowing you were going to disobey it anyway, well,  ok for you I guess.

I know I couldn't sign something/"Affirm" or "Certify" something that wasn't true, but OK.

EDIT: The Charter Organization Agreement which as IH or CO (or both) you would have had to have signed also provides

Quote

The Chartered Organization agrees to...Conduct the Scouting program consistent with BSA rules, regulations, and policies.

 Again, if you were able in your heart of hearts able to sign that knowing you were going to disobey "BSA rules, regulations, and policies" anyway, well,  ok for you I guess.

1 minute ago, David CO said:

Not really.  It is the Chartered Organization's decision to participate.  The IH must go along with that decision.  All other scouters get to choose.  Not so for the 
IH.

Are you the IH? The COR? (I don't know if CO in your name is for Colorado or Chartered Organization).

Either way, at some point or another, you signed the application that included explicitly or by reference the items I noted. You either signed knowing you were going to violate those provisions anyway or signed not knowing.

As I said, I personally would not sign something where on my honor I "Affirm" and "Certify" that I will comply with BSA's rules knowing I had no intention on doing so.

But that's just me I guess.

19 minutes ago, David CO said:

 It is an insult.  I think we should drop all of our Catholic units.  But that is not my decision to make.  

It is, however, your decision to participate.

I can't speak for you, but I know I could not

a) sign the adult application in which I "certify" and "affirm" that 

Quote

I agree to comply with the rules and regulations of the BSA and the local council, including the Scouter Code of Conduct

and that Scouter Code of Conduct includes this

Quote

I will respect and abide by the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, BSA policies, and BSA-provided training,

and then

b) immediately turn around and knowingly refuse to "comply with the rules and regulations of the BSA and the local council, including the Scouter Code of Conduct" and knowingly refuse to "respect and abide by the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, BSA policies, and BSA-provided training."

If you are comfortable in signing that you "agree to comply" and "will respect and abide" by the rules knowing that you have no intention to do so, ok for you.

I, however, will stand by my word and signature.

1 minute ago, RememberSchiff said:

2011? I thought it was changed.

Our unit will still ring bell after Thanksgiving, though with covid we will not sing this year.  If being Kind to others makes us DisObedient, IMHO we are better scouts for it.

Another $0.02,

There are 2 version of the Guides to Unit Money-Earning Projects floating. Both have the warning against be soliciting money for another organization (and in particular the Salvation Army’s Christmas Bell Ringing program).

Quote

 

7. Will the fundraising project avoid soliciting money or gifts?

The BSA Rules and Regulations state, “Youth members shall not be permitted to serve as solicitors of money for their chartered organizations, for the local council, or in support of other organizations. Adult and youth members shall not be permitted to serve as solicitors of money in support of personal or unit participation in local, national, or international events.”

For example: Boy Scouts/Cub Scouts and leaders should not identify themselves as Boy Scouts/Cub Scouts or as a troop/pack participate in The Salvation Army’s Christmas Bell Ringing program. This would be raising money for another organization. At no time are units permitted to solicit contributions for unit programs.

 

2007: https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34427.pdf

2011: https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/510-274.pdf

And National encourages non-fundraising service opportunities for units with the Salvation Army. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/marketing/pdf/02-776.pdf

So this isn't a question of being "kind". Go out and do service projects for the Salvation Army all you want. You simply cannot solicit money for them via bell ringing as a troop/pack.

4 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Currently no idea how roundtables, event planning, and district Eagle BORs are going to be done.

Zoom. I suspect that with mega councils and mega districts we'll see more and more that Zoom won't go away even if COVID does.

7 minutes ago, David CO said:

Exactly.  Our country was designed with a system of checks and balances.  Our forefathers wisely understood that unfettered power leads to tyranny, poverty, and widespread suffering.  This is true even when the leadership appears to have started with good intentions.  The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I see the BSA/CO relationship as one of checks and balances.  As much as the executives at BSA would like us to think so, it is not the role of the CO to blindly obey BSA.

Don't want to follow BSA's rules? Don't join BSA.

BSA is not the government, state or federal. It is a private organization. Don't want to follow that signalization's rules? Don't join or join, try to get the rule changed, but follow until it is. Simple.

Youth protection gets in the way? Discard it?

Guide to Safe Scouting gets in the way. Discard it?

Wow. Just. Wow.

One last point then I am done with this.

Re-read the agreement you sign

Quote

I will respect and abide by the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, BSA policies, and BSA-provided training, including but not limited to those relating to:
• Unauthorized fundraising activities
• Advocacy on social and political issues, including prohibited use of the BSA uniform and brand
• Bullying, hazing, harassment, and unlawful discrimination of any kind

If you cannot honestly sign that, don't join BSA.

53 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Don't blindly follow? Question authority? Follow your conscience. Make sure your right, then go ahead (Davy Crockett). Accept the consequences on your decisions. That men of good conscience can disagree. Do what is right.

A Scout is Obedient. Question the rule? Sure. But violate deliberately? Nope. It is rank hypocrisy to tell scouts they have to obey rules, but Scouters don't.

54 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Years ago here, scouters argued about the existing BSA rule against raising money for other organizations and National gave the Salvation Army bell-ringing as an example which was likely due to the scouter.com topic.  Yes each Christmas, some scouters and their units Cheerfully disobeyed that rule which was apparently written by those unfamiliar with the Scout Oath - to help others at all times and that Eagle candidates routinely raise money for others to fund their Eagle scout projects. As we know, eventually National quietly removed that rule.

Nope. That rule is still very much in effect.

10 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I also disagree with the BSA on a regular basis.  I've always felt very comfortable being able to make a distinction between the two.  Even in times when I might make a different rule (wheelbarrows) I have no problems saying "folks, I know that you can use a wheelbarrow at home, brut BSA rules prohibit it." I don't feel that makes me any less authentic as a leader.  

Exactly. This is the point I keep trying to make. If you agree to put on a BSA program/charter you agree to abide by their rules. That doesn't mean you agree with their rules but that you acknowledge that BSA's program = BSA's rules.

Quote

I will respect and abide by the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, BSA policies, and BSA-provided training, including but not limited to those relating to:
• Unauthorized fundraising activities
• Advocacy on social and political issues, including prohibited use of the BSA uniform and brand
• Bullying, hazing, harassment, and unlawful discrimination of any kind

What I think is LESS authentic is to say "Sure, this is a BSA program, but we are going to act in direct defiance and open contradiction to BSA rules including the Charter Agreement and the Scouter Code of Conduct both of which obligate Scouters to obey BSA rules."

What kind of message does that send to scouts? A scout is obedient...but scouters can go do whatever they want.

1 hour ago, David CO said:

I do.  We should reject the whole concept of authenticity of leadership in BSA, and issue a disclaimer, much like the television networks do.  The statements expressed are solely the views of the BSA national council, and do not reflect the opinions of your scout leaders or your local Chartered Organization.

 

Then why are you in scouting? If you are so utterly opposed the BSA National and its rules and authenticity (up to and I guess including Guide to Safe Scouting and YPT?) why stay?

I may not agreed entirely with everything national says but I will not stick a giant sign or disclaimer that says "The statements regarding Guide to Safe Scouting and Youth Protection are solely the views of the BSA national council, and do not reflect the opinions of your scout leaders or your local Chartered Organization."

12 minutes ago, FireStone said:

For anyone familiar with Virtus, do you know if there is an online course option? The CO is saying we all have to take the course in-person.

No for initial training. Has to be in person. HOWEVER since COVID, they will do Zoom (at least they will in my diocese). I also just checked and some are doing WebEx.

For locations https://www.virtusonline.org/virtus/reg_list.cfm?theme=0

For re-certification, yes you can do it online.

My advice: if your diocese does NOT do Zoom or WebEx, see if you can register to take it in a Zoom or WebEx diocese. Since it is national-certified training, valid is valid.

11 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Those limits are quite narrow and often self-selecting.

Sometimes. I also think/know/have seen times when the CO believes that the BSA rules that get in their way just shouldn't be followed.

I had one Scoutmaster, with the CO present and nodding his head, tell me that because it is the "Guides" to Fundraising (he meant Guides to Unit Money-Earning Projects) that they are just "guides" and therefore not enforceable.

Ditto "Guide" to Safe Scouting.

On occasion the CO just simply looks at the program as "theirs" and therefore "theirs" to do with what they want.

EDIT: And we've even seen people in this discussion forum hold forth the view that since the unit is "owned" by the CO, not BSA, then BSA's rules can be ignored.

9 minutes ago, David CO said:

This topic is about the CO's rules and procedures.  It's not about BSA rules or the charter agreement.  

The point is that the CO's rules and procedures cannot directly contradict BSA's rules or the charter agreement.

A CO that imposes a rule that they will not allow African American scouts or scouters would be in direct conflict with BSA's rules and the charter agreement.

A CO that demands scouts fundraise in the name of the CO would be in direct conflict with BSA's rules and the charter agreement.

There are limits to what the CO can do and still maintain an BSA unit.

6 hours ago, David CO said:

so long as we agree that BSA doesn't own the unit.

BSA doesn't own the unit. But the unit is required under the terms of the charter agreement to abide by BSA's rules.

Quote

The Chartered Organization agrees to...Conduct the Scouting program consistent with BSA rules, regulations, and policies.

21 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

2000 scouts on the books is going to make operating two camps, a HA base, and a Cub camp really challenging.  

So Grand Teton went from 26,000 to 2,000, does anyone know the numbers for similar councils out west?

No, but let's take a look at their IRS 990s, shall we?

Assets - Liabilities

FY 2013 (based on FY 2014 filing) $4,510,820

FY 2014: $5,020,375

FY 2015: $8,206,438

FY 2016: $8,157,350

FY 2017: $8,206,679

FY 2018: $7,440,727

You could see things starting to collapse if you dig into the data. FY 2019 (not due yet) will be a massacre I assume.

27 minutes ago, FireStone said:

Not my church, my CO, and they're asking all of our unit volunteers to sign it, which includes folks of other faiths.

So I guess in this CO, if you're not Catholic, either you can't volunteer or you can and just have th sign the form without really meaning it.

I've seen several non-Catholic Christians in the Catholic sponsored units I know in all leadership positions up to ASM/Den Leader, etc.

The key is that they expect leaders to not act or conduct themselves in open defiance of Church teachings.

Having an Episcopalian (or heck, Jewish) den leader is not going be banned.

Having a homosexual den leader bring his husband to a Cub Campout and introduce him as "my husband" is not going to fly in a Catholic-parish sponsored unit.

May want to check out the Guide to Catholic Scouting

Quote

To accomplish this, the lay leaders in Scouting must themselves be spiritually indoctrinated with the importance and the opportunities of playing a part in the Christian formation of a youth.

and
 

Quote

Catholic Scouting

Scout leaders, families, and other scouts are witnesses of faith to each member of our Parish’s youth ministry program. We are witnesses to our faith through our:
• Religious emblems and activities program,
• Participation in scout retreats or days of reflection,
• Mass attendance while on weekend trips,
• Values in Scout Oath and Scout Law, and
• Outreach to unchurched members of the unit.

Quote

Evangelization
When an organization chooses to charter a unit, it does so because its values match those of Scouting and it wants to take advantage of the youth-serving programs the BSA offers. The Scouting program, when chartered to a Catholic institution, should take on the values of the Catholic faith. Scouting fulfills all the characteristics of a program of Catholic youth ministry when it utilizes the activities and programs of the NCCS and becomes involved in the community life of its Catholic chartered institution (see http://www.scouting.org/filestore/membership/pdf/522-451/522-451_low_english.pdf).

Effective Scouting programs also attract unchurched youth. Even if the church has a fine religious education program, sacramental formation, and youth ministry organization chances are that the youth program mainly attracts young people already active in the congregation. Scouting offers a distinctive outreach element to help extend the church’s ministry to the larger community

While a Catholic-chartered program may be open to youth of other faiths, the experience should be similar to that of someone attending a Catholic school or participating in a Catholic sports program where the Catholic faith is practiced. It's our calling as Catholics to practice our faith and thereby evangelize all those with whom we come into contact. This isn't the same as encouraging someone to convert. The NCCS offers the program National Catholic Leadership Development to prepare Catholic Scouters to better offer their talents and charisms in the service of the Church.

The BSA and NCCS are agreed that the BSA cannot prevent Catholic youth from joining BSA units sponsored by community and other church bodies. These units are found where it is not practical for one church to sponsor a unit. Catholic adults must be encouraged to participate as leaders in these units to support the Catholic youth that are present with appropriate Catholic components (Mass attendance, religious activities and emblems, etc.).

1 minute ago, FireStone said:

The Declaration of Religious Principle is fairly broad, though, and not specific to any one faith.

The document I'm being asked to sign speaks directly to Christian standards and the teachings of the Catholic church. To me that seems too specific for a BSA volunteer, with the BSA being non-sectarian.

Most Catholic units I've worked with require it.

Again, you are not JUST a BSA leader, you are a leader of the local Catholic Diocese (through the parish). Therefore you are required to adhere to their rules/standards as well.

2 minutes ago, FireStone said:

Follow-up question:

Can a CO require volunteers to sign a document that states that volunteers agree to exhibit Christian ethical standards and conduct themselves in a manner that is consistent with the discipline, norms, and teachings of the Cathollic Church?

I'm struggling with this one and how it potentially impacts volunteers who follow other faiths.

Yes as long as it complies with the Declaration of Religious Principles which, if this is a Catholic unit or dioceses, does.

Quote

Declaration of Religious Principle
Clause 1. The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member
can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an
obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath the member
declares, “On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and
my country and to obey the Scout Law.” The recognition of God
as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful
acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the
best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education
of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of
the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship
should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore,
recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but
it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious
training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group
with which the member is connected shall give definite attention
to religious life.

On 9/21/2020 at 4:55 PM, qwazse said:

Right now "public service" announcements are reminding us that being exposed to pornography is a form of sexual abuse.

Given how often porn is used by adults as a grooming technique I would say that may be a good PSA (I'd have to see the exact text)

29 minutes ago, FireStone said:

Our CO is requiring us to attend a church-sponsored child protection program, in addition to BSA YPT. If we don't attend, we cannot be BSA adult volunteers.

As a broad and general question, are COs allowed to do this?

Yes.

Remember, your unit is an appendage of the chartered organization. They "own" your unit. Not only are you a BSA Leader, you are a leader within that chartered organization.

To be a BSA Leader, you need YPT.

To be a leader of [insert name of church here], you need [insert name of training here].

To be BOTH a BSA Leader and a leader of [insert name of church here] need YPT and [insert name of training here].

Some Catholic Dioceses or individual churches, for example, will require Virtus in addition to YPT.

For those not clear, TCC = Official Committee of Tort Claimants which is the group of claimants (well, their attorneys really) who are the court-designated negotiation team for all claimants in this process.

Basically as I read this motion, Kosnoff is trying to leverage his purported list of claimants to either overtake or cut out the Official Committee of Tort Claimants named by the court.

1 hour ago, MattR said:

the insurance fee has been pulled out ($75) as well

National prohibits the insurance fee from exceeding $12. So no, your council is not following the rules.

If they are mandating it, tell them to pound sand and contact National.

If it is a "strongly encouraged donation", just tell them to pound sand.

1 hour ago, MattR said:

The council is getting about $250/scout.

That's literally not possible outside of massive financial improprieties. $66 is the maximum Council Fee including insurance reclamation fees (councils are NOT allowed to charge more than this as "Council fees")
 

So,  $250-66 = $184 Council activities fees?

What council is charging that?

EDIT:

I am still trying to figure out this $420 budget

Quote

My troop's budget just came out and they will be charging each scout $420/year. That covers national fees, Boy's Life, insurance, council fees, camporee fees and the money the troop actually uses to operate (which is about $50). The council is getting about $250/scout.

$66 ("national fees")

$12 ("Boy's Life")

$66 ("council fees")(as noted, no council may charge more than $66)

$50 ("money the troop actually uses to operate")

$194

$420-$194 = $226 for "insurance" and "camporee fees"? Really?

And I still don't see how this adds up to $250 for council.

4 minutes ago, David CO said:

The father is the scoutmaster.  He should need anybody's help in reporting it to the council.

Doesn't matter. If an adult observes what they believe to be harassment or bullying, they are obligated as a BSA mandatory reporter to report it up.

Quote

Reporting Violations of BSA Youth Protection Policies

If you think any of the BSA’s Youth Protection policies have been violated, including those described within Scouting’s Barriers to Abuse, you must notify your local council Scout executive or his/her designee so appropriate action can be taken for the safety of our Scouts.