InquisitiveScouter

2 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

As the SM, I held a meeting with parents not going to camp (mostly first year parents) about how to prepare themselves and their scouts for camp and another meeting with the adults attending camp to set the guidelines for their behavior. These were relaxed meetings intended to get everyone excited for the trip. And they was laced with humorous stories of why we have guidelines.

Barry

That's a good idea, Barry.

17 minutes ago, qwazse said:

You already know how this worked in preventing "egregious offenders" before, so you know what to expect in the future (plus some other curve ball yet to be seen). Letters like these only get you so far. But  if you're asking for revisions, I suggest one:

Write less. (And now I will proceed to waste your time by writing more  )

Look at every sentence. Scratch anything that excuses your behavior or tries to empathize with a parent's misbehavior. Don't waste time justifying your actions. This is your troop's culture, it needs no excuse. For example, your last point, I would rephrase: "Parents, new or  returning, are expected to attend any adult training that the camp makes available."

you have about 50% deadwood or more in those instructions. Get rid of it, and you'll do just as well.

Feedback is a gift

Thanks, Qwazse.  Agree.  "If I had more time, I would have written you a shorter letter."  Who said that?

Well, I have some corona-time now, so will revise accordingly...

17 minutes ago, malraux said:

I would swap out gendered words like manhood for adulthood, even though you are a boy only troop, but otherwise I agree with everything there. 
 

specifically this paragraph: This is a very delicate time for these young men. They are closer and closer to bridging into manhood, and many of them are just beginning to face their fear of that unknown and level of responsibility.

the rest is fine, but otherwise it makes it sound like bsa summer camp is only for boys, when it is no long the case. The later bits about stay out of his tent are not a problem as I assume you do not have a linked girls troop. 

malraux,

Thanks for the input.  I purposefully left those in.  As you surmise, we are boy only.  Will reconsider, though...

27 minutes ago, eagle90 said:

Very well said.  Especially Point #1.  A few years ago we had some parents who were only there for their own children and it caused a large rift among both scouts and adults to the point of shouting matches.  Not a pleasant situation for anyone.  A well thought out message.

 

Dale

Thanks, Dale.  Appreciate your taking the time to read...

Scouters,

We are still planning for Summer Camp.  Here is the info I send out to New Scout parents.  This has been well-received in the past, but it is an issue I still deal with every year.  Last year I had two egregious offenders.  I would appreciate your input on the message following...

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If I were the King, I would decree that no parents should go to Summer Camp the First Year 

But every parent knows their new Scout much better than I do, at this point, so I defer to your right as parent to make the call. If the only way we can get a Scout to participate in Summer Camp is to have a parent attend, then the parent should go. If you and your Scout decide he can accept the challenge without you, then I would encourage and recommend you to give him that space and not go.

This is a very delicate time for these young men. They are closer and closer to bridging into manhood, and many of them are just beginning to face their fear of that unknown and level of responsibility.

Separation from parents and the comfort of home for a week is a test most have not yet gone through…

In my experience, the first year of Summer Camp, after crossover, is a watershed event. When many new Scouts get that first “full taste” of what the Scouting program is for older Scouts, they choose to stop Scouting.

It will be hot, sweaty, uncomfortable, and buggy, with new and unfamiliar foods, faces, and activities. Some things they will absolutely love, but they will not be good at some of the new experiences they are going to try, and many find they cannot deal with that level of physical, emotional, intellectual, and spiritual discomfort. For some, it is a breeze.

The norm I have seen is that a few parents choose to go who are concerned for the health and well-being of their Scouts, and who have not yet established a level of trust in the way we do things. And that is just fine with me. Scout camp is a great place for you to either build that trust, or decide we are a bunch of incompetents who shouldn’t be allowed to take kids into the woods. Maybe one in a hundred comes to the latter conclusion. (Everyone experiences Scouting differently.)

There will be some ground rules though…

• You are there to provide the same level of attention and help to all Scouts. If your Scout is getting “special” treatment from you, it makes the others whose parents aren’t there feel pretty down. This can contribute to serious homesickness for those whose parents are unable to attend. It has been the most prevalent issue with parents attending. One of the best compliments your Scout could get at the end of the week from his buddies would be, “I didn’t know that was your Mom/Dad!”

• You should not (actually, must not) pack your Scout’s gear. You can review the list of gear with him at home, and watch him pack it to make sure he has what he needs, but this should be on him.

• You will not be allowed into your Scouts’ tent to help him unpack, find any items, or otherwise deal with minor issues. He needs to struggle on his own, and seek help from his buddies. Without challenges, there is no growth. He will also have a tent mate who will probably be uncomfortable with you being there. We respect their privacy, but do conduct health and safety checks of their quarters. If you notice any issue, it is best to bring it to the attention of the Scoutmasters, and we look into it.

• Unless there is a serious or life threatening situation, you should be pretty much hands off…in observation mode…minor issues, injuries or illnesses should be dealt with by the youth leaders giving First Aid under the supervision of the Scoutmaster Corps. If a situation needs to be elevated, we let the camp health staff take care of it. My first response to most questions or issues is, “Did you ask your Patrol Leader?” If the Patrol Leader is baffled, I ask the PL, “Did you ask the Senior Patrol Leader?” And then I follow up to make sure the issue was addressed appropriately.

• You should take some training as an adult while you are there. Summer Camp is a great learning environment for everyone.

Hope this helps you understand our philosophy of parents at Scout Camp!

I get the corporate structuring of Arrow and BSA.  What I was writing about earlier was that Surbaugh was an officer of the two separate 501c3s, but being paid the exact same salary from both.  Doesn't really pass the sniff test...

Great time to try some virtual Scouting with Skype or other platforms.  Public Health and Emergency Prep MBs are great candidates...

Yeah, that doesn't pass the "Headline Test"

2 hours ago, swilliams said:

We are one of the towns who have a case now. Our schools are closed today for cleaning, so that means our troop meeting is canceled. 

I was thinking of starting a thread talking about suggestions for continuing the program while trying to deal with this. New topic, or post here?

We had our Scout meeting entirely outdoors last night.  Except for getting flags and going to restrooms.  Our sponsor requested we station an adult at the door with hand sanitizer to give everyone a squirt, and also asked for handwashing immediately upon entry (yes, right after the sanitizer.)  We cheerfully complied.

Our Scouts have never been cleaner! 

Additional data point...

National supply currently says they are 49 1/2" x 35" x 35"

https://www.scoutshop.org/catalog/product/view/id/2311/s/neckerchief-with-silver-embroidery-64073/

Maybe if I stretched it a lot...

TAHAWK,

"Re square neckerchiefs: It's not the heat it's the humidity."

You got that right!

My military issue triangulars are 37x37x52 and some are 46x46x65 (I like these a lot)

On line suppliers for commerical market are in the range of 40x40x56 (OSHA requirement to meet ANSI/ISEA Z308.1-2015) 

https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/regulations/standardnumber/1910/1910.151AppA

https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/regulations/standardnumber/1910/1910.266AppA

http://dir.nv.gov/uploadedFiles/dirnvgov/content/News/Useful Guidance for First Aid Kits.pdf

Our Scout Supply Troop neckers measure 34x34x48.  Although another "researcher" has data saying otherwise https://observer.wunderwood.org/2010/11/09/how-big-is-a-scout-neckerchief/

First Aid supply checklist in Scout Handbook calls for 40 inch (driven by OSHA/ANSI I suppose).

I have a little experience teaching First Aid, and find the Scout neckers fine for youngers/smallers, not good for the heftier

IMO, Scout Supply neckers should, at a minimum, comply with the 40(x40x56) (isosceles right triangle implied?) called for in Scout Handbook for First Aid.

G2A&I says "Special neckerchiefs, the same size as the official ones, may be authorized by local councils. Such neckerchiefs may include identification of the chartered organization. The standard designed neckerchief may be personalized with troop number, city, and state." (Who follows the G2A&I?? 😣)

Any of you ever ask council approval for a custom Troop necker? Or would you?

"No" on the squares....doubling the material seems hot to this southern boy...

haha...you are almost as jaded as I am

@qwazse,

I wish they roamed the streets of our city or village...;)

In their free time (if they even have that), most Scout-aged youth around here now stay at home, play video games, and "socialize" through the Interwebthingy.

Remember coming home from school, dumping your books and riding around on your bike or playing Nerf football/stickball/street hockey/hanging out at your fort until it got dark?  That's alien behavior these days.

I'm for taking them camping...better health outcomes in the long run vs obesity, diabetes, mental health issues, etc...

Grew up in Ga-Carolina Council....fond memories of a Summer Camp there....that was timbered and sold.

Yes, Commissioners are as scarce as hen's teeth.  After finishing my unit tenure, I plan to serve as a Commissioner.  

Totally agree on those role perspectives.

ParkMan,

Would you elaborate, please? "...end all the confusion about professionals trying to do volunteer roles."  You mean confusion on the volunteers' parts, or on the professionals' parts, or both?

And I am all for paying someone fairly.  But there aren't many Scouters in our council who see the value for those dollars...  This is what councils need to do...show the value they create, and then show appreciation for the value the volunteers create. When the Mom who makes $45K a year is asked for money, and her Cub Day camp has been cancelled two years in a row with no explanation, and the council camp has buildings which are unhealthy (mold) and should be condemned...it's a hard sell for her, too.

When they can convince me, they'll get more of my money.

And the DE's, IMO, are not being paid fairly...what's their turnover rate, again?  And our Registrar is a saint.  Without her, things would come to a grinding halt...  You can't pay a good council Registrar enough

4 minutes ago, SSScout said:

Oh, that is wonderful. 26 mile hiking around the deck of his ship.  The SS Leviathan, was it ?  Google is your friend:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Leviathan 

950 ft long, 100 feet beam.   Say, a rectangle 8oofeet long by 80 feet wide, equals 1760 feet into 26 miles..... 

78 times around that boat?  Sweet!

On 2/29/2020 at 3:37 PM, David CO said:

Let me guess.  Is her salary about $375,000 each year?  I might also guess it hasn't been determined that her salary is too high.  It would appear that Boy Scouting and Girls Scouting do have some things in common after all.

Last full salary I can find for their previous CEO was for 2016...$135K

2017 IRS 990 filing shows Loretta Graham with salary of $0, and a named interim CEO with $22.1K  Must have been brand new at that point, but it will be around the $135K ballpark, for sure.

In contrast, our SE pulled down $203.5K for 2017, which puts them in the top 6% of our area, according to census data.  I point this out at the end of FOS presentations, so people can have full facts when deciding what they want to do with their money.  Needless to say, I am PNG with professionals in our council.

All data is information required by IRS to be disclosed publicly.  You can find what your Execs make, if you want.  (I use Charity Navigator.)  Recommend you not read those documents on a full stomach 🤮 

Sweet

Spot on...

We challenge our patrols to camp on their own at least twice a year (and I mean different destinations, not just as patrols in the same camp).  (I'd prefer more.) Just last weekend, two patrols (out of five) went camping, at two different campgrounds, and had their own program.  Got down to around 20 degrees both nights.  (Thank the Good Lord we have enough Assistant SMs and registered adults who are willing to take this on.)  I went out for a brief visit on Saturday night to show support.

Scouts love camping on their own as a patrol.

I, too, have noticed, over the past 15 or so years, the move toward "gaggle-Scouting," which you have described to a tee.  Summer Camp is one of the worst offenders.  Program should be built toward patrols.  Heck, most camps don't even set up patrol sites any more.  20 tents in a big circle...one fire pit...yuck.

For us, patrol flags are out at every meeting, or we don't start.  Patrol yells at every meeting (they have fun with it).  Patrol instruction, patrol games, patrol gear, patrol menus, parol food shopping, camp by patrol, etc.  As you said...Patrols come together to make the Troop!

We do use the NSP construct, but do not split them up at the end of the year.  They stay together throughout the program.  I find Troop Guides work, but must be highly incentivized.  Like SPL/ASPLs, TG's get to eat with adults if they wish, and we will cook/wash their dishes to give them time to focus on spending time with the youngers teaching, guiding, mentoring.

Previously, Troop culture had new Scouts getting divided up after their first year.  We found that extremely disruptive, and asked the PLC to really think about the way we did things.  They chose to keep patrols together...no dividing them up without significant reasons and PLC approval.  It has really come together over the years...

Patrols can and do occasionally change their name, though.  I don't like it, but leave this up to them.  NSP picks their own identity after a few months experience.  It is their patrol, after all

@dkurtenbach

Did you mean "erosion" by putting restrictions on youth, like removing the ability of patrols to do their own outing without adult (now 2 registered) supervision?  Or something else??

Back in the day, we challenged Scouts to make First Class so they could go camping on their own.  Wow, what a motivator that was!  And an extreme confidence and leadership builder as well.

Love that slides can (and should, IMO) be made by Scouts.  Scouts who make their own slides tend to guard them more carefully.  If it gets dropped, everyone pretty much knows whose it is

"Handicraft slides made by youth may also be worn." G2A&I

One of my favorites is the Liberty Bell!  My first slide when I joined in the 70's 😎

@Cburkhardt,

Yes, BPSA looks interesting...I believe part of the problem is "stopping" the adventure at 21.  Why not Rover?

"Rank versus Proficiency In the BSA, the Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class through Eagle badges are referred to as “ranks.” In Baden-Powell’s program and traditional Scouting, these are referred to as “proficiency” badges—specifically “general proficiency” badges. The general proficiency badges show a Scout’s current proficiency across a known set of Scouting skills. The idea behind traditional Scouting is advancement through progressive training in Scoutcraft (i.e., Scouting skills). Merit badges in the BSA are the equivalent of “Special Proficiency” badges in traditional Scouting. Special proficiency badges represent specific Scoutcraft or public-service skills that a Scout can train in and learn—e.g., Camper, Pioneer, Map Maker, First Aid, etc. “Rank,” then, in traditional Scouting refers to the position of responsibility of the Scout, such as Patrol Leader, Assistant Patrol Leader, Rover Mate, etc. These positions are appointed by the Scoutmaster or Rover Scout Leader to promote patrol, or small unit, efficiency—not to be Scoutelected roles at taking turns in learning leadership. In Baden-Powell’s program and traditional Scouting, the general proficiency badges (Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class) represent a Scout’s current proficiency. Unlike the BSA program, Scouts must be able to re-pass the requirements for each of these general proficiency badges in order to continue to wear them. Re-passing or re-testing is an important distinction in traditional Scouting, focusing on keeping the Scouts current in their skills and abilities. It also lends itself to the theme of being prepared for service, whether in the patrol or in the community. Venturing versus Rovering The BSA Venturing program and the BPSA Rover program are both co-ed, but have different age limits and different focuses for their programs. BSA’s Venturing program is focused more around high-adventure activities and only allows members through age 20, while BPSA’s traditional Rovering program is more focused on citizenship and community service and has no upper limit for membership. 95 Scouting for Everyone Scouts can be members of the BPSA starting with the Otters program at age 5 as opposed to the BSA’s Tigers which start at age 6. The upper age limit for Scouts in the BSA is 20 through the Venturing program where the BPSA Rovers have no upper age limit. The BPSA is open to males and females in any of the program divisions, where the BSA only allows female members in its Venturing program, which is only for ages 14 through 20, or as leaders (Scouters). The BPSA believes Scouting should be available to everyone, youth and adult, male and female. Membership for both youth and adults is not conditional based on religious beliefs (or lack thereof), sexual orientation, or gender identification."

If the BSA brand gets much more tarnished, you may see more of the above.  Adapt or die...