mrkstvns

14 hours ago, Onslow said:

I feel you're completely missing the point.  Sectarian preaching is wholly inappropriate in the world of scouting imo.  Whatever happened to "A Scout is Kind"?

I once witnessed a hell fire sermon being preached at a camporee.  I'm a Baptist, and I regret not reporting this to the council as an inappropriate incident.

Like most of life...."it depends".

I would agree with you *IF* the "Sectarian preaching" was part of campwide activity, *IF* it was the only worship opportunity available, and *IF* it was announced as interdenominational.  

On the other hand, it's good to recognize the rights of other people to worship as they see fit, and to be respectful of their practices and traditions.

I attended a week long Winter Camp a couple years back at which a non-denominational interfaith worship service was provided by the camp in the main dining hall...."and oh, by the way, for those who would prefer a Catholic mass, Father O'Malley from St.Joseph church is here and has graciously offered to lead a traditional Sunday worship service over by the boathouse." 

I see zero problem with that because the sectarian option is simply that....an OPTION.  Great that the council's camp staff remembered that "A Scout is Reverent"!

I would be troubled by your camp's "hell fire sermon" only if scouts and scouters were told to go and were misled about what it would be (i.e., they were told it was "non denominational" when it clearly wasn't).  Just because somebody wants to practice a different brand of reverence than I buy, doesn't make it "an inappropriate incident". 

By the same token, I would have zero problem with a rabbi coming to celebrate a Jewish worship service or an iman coming to celebrate a Muslim service. Just be honest about what it is so I can opt out if I choose not to drink that flavor of Kool-Aid....and *DO* provide a more general non-denominational option for the rest of us.

Communication MB doesn't have any real time blockers, but requirement 8 is to plan and emcee a troop event (court of honor OR campfire OR worship service). Our troop is large and there are always scouts who want to emcee the campfire, so there's a "waiting list" for that job....and there's only a couple Court of Honors per year, so that emcee job requires waiting too.  

So here's a tip for scouts who want to quickly complete requirement 8 ... choose the "worship service" option.

Even though our troop is chartered by a church and has a significant number of kids whose families belong to the chartering parish, there are RARELY any scouts volunteering to lead a Sunday morning "Scouts Own Service". As a Communication MBC, I advise our older scouts to plan and conduct the worship service because it can almost always be done at the troop's next monthly campout. I have yet to hear of a scout who had to delay that requirement because he couldn't get on the agenda for a worship service...

On 4/20/2019 at 9:30 PM, Thunderbird said:

Cooking - Not really difficult, but has some specific requirements that Scouts need to be aware of and follow.

Requirement 7 is the big "gotcha" for a lot of scouts because it requires cooking during a backpacking trip. My son waited months to finish that one requirement because the troop only does 1 backpacking campout per year.  

On 4/20/2019 at 9:30 PM, Thunderbird said:

Merit badges to watch out for:
Family Life - Track chores for 90 days.
Personal Fitness - Outline a fitness program and track fitness for 12 weeks.
Personal Management - Track income, expenses, and savings for 13 consecutive weeks.
Camping - 20 nights of camping with specific requirements (cabin camping doesn't count).  6 nights at summer camp can count if the Scout sleeps under the sky or in a tent.
Cooking - Not really difficult, but has some specific requirements that Scouts need to be aware of and follow.
 

To that list, I'd add Sustainability (for those scouts who choose it over Environmental Science).  Sustainability MB requirement 2 is very involved and requires tracking water consumption, energy use, food waste, and "stuff/consumer junk" --- the logs span up to 4 weeks.

 

6 minutes ago, Cambridgeskip said:

So anything that you can think of that is very American point right this way!

You are in luck!

SCOUTER Forum has an entire area chock full of good camp recipes:
https://www.scouter.com/forum/65-camp-recipes-and-cooking/ 

In my opinion, the most quintessential "campfire food" is S'mores.  Simply spear a marshmallow on a stick, brown it over the fire, then smear it on a graham cracker with a piece of chocolate candy bar on it. Cap it off with another graham cracker to make it a sandwich.  I've yet to meet a kid who didn't love making S'mores!!

• Best name (for cars that are named....Dragon Wagon, etc.)
• Ugliest (in a good way!  or maybe "Scariest")
• Good job Dad!  (for the car that looks like only an adult would have made it)

2 minutes ago, Saltface said:

Is there a link?

Just put it in a few minutes ago....guess I need to learn to proofread a bit better, eh? 😎

16 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

 I don't find bright colored gear to be offensive.  

No offense intended, but the LNT point about "courtesy" isn't necessarily about how YOU feel, but about how OTHERS might feel...

Serious outdoorsmen *DO* tend to prefer subtlty. 

Even if I absolutely LOVE day-glo yellow, I will avoid it in the backcountry out of respect for others, just as I will avoid wearing sexually suggestive T-shirts when I attend Sunday church services. 

19 minutes ago, malraux said:

Yeah, I'll probably follow the same path. But it does channel into larger and larger units. i.e. the den leader has to watch ~8 kids, while the SM/asm is more working on monitoring 20ish kids.

Depends on the troop.

My son's troop has a SM who is riding herd on over 70 scouts.  A nearby troop in our district recently had over 100 scouts. I know of a troop in our council with almost 200 scouts.

Of course there are also struggling troops with 10 scouts....and I feel bad when those boys come to our troop because their home troop doesn't have the support or resources to offer the strong program of outdoor activities needed to support healthy advancement.

I think the "ideal" troop size would be about 30...

4 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

I have no issue with teaching in a group setting of MBU's and like activities. After all, we teach in group settings when we are in the woods. 

It is the signing-off on requirements that I take issue with. 

In fact I think "a Scout Learns" better in a group; watching others, trying, competing and teaching others. But "a Scout is Tested" as an individual, which gives them confidence, pride and sense of accomplishment. 

Group setting isn't necessarily the problem. It's how the MBUs are operated in practice...

* testing is often not done at all

* time is inadequate for most subjects

* some MBUs "double up" multiple badges into a single session that can not even adequately cover ONE of the badges

* parents pressure organizers and counselors to issue "completes" not "partials"

* counselors are supposed to cover ALL requirements ("no more, no less"), but in practice, are pressured to do less

* hands-on requirements or time-intensive requirements are avoided, 

* MBU classes are boring (indoors instead of outdoors, instructor-led not boy-led, etc., etc.)

There are indeed scouts who learn well in groups. There are also scouts who learn better when they can touch and do (aka, "tactile learners"), and there are some scouts who learn best when they can explore tangents and research things on their own. The MBU approach short-changes many scouts.

Just in case you are naive enough to think that the health care industry is okay and can regulate itself, take a look at what one kid's snake bite at summer camp ending up costing....YIKES!

See story:
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/04/29/717467217/summer-bummer-a-young-campers-142-938-snakebite

On 4/25/2019 at 1:21 PM, TMSM said:

I have worked hard to recruit in house MBs for all Eagle required badges (except swimming) so we try to keep them from taking those at MBUs. My biggest issue is that scouts will sign up and take the class then come back to me with a "blue card" to sign. No guidance, no choice of MB counselor all legit according to the rules.

I like your approach.  The in-house MB workshop gives you a lot of opportunity to make the MB meaningful and legit follow the "no more, no less" principle. It also lets you play to the talents, experiences, and knowledge of the adults in your troop and help the boys work with different adults.

We have one guy in our troop who owns an auto repair shop. He does a full day class in Automotive Maintenance that is so much fun and so intensely hands-on. It's really more of a merit badge "experience" than it is a "class". 

Another parent is a veterinarian. She does a brilliant workshop that the kids love because they're invited to her animal clinic for the day as they watch her examine animals and perform the occasional spay or neutering. The boys LOVE it and come away with invaluable memories and knowledge that can NEVER be duplicated in a lame MBU.

I do the in-house workshop for Sustainability. It's a hard merit badge when it's done right and it does NOT lend itself to the cookie-cutter MBU approach because it requires several logs to be kept for up to 4 weeks. I do 2 sessions: an 8-hour long class that's hands on, videos, and group discussions, then 4-5 weeks later, another session that's pure discussion of the logs and results. Every scout is expected to have done all their energy, food, water, stuff consumption logs independently and to present their findings and tell their peers about their observations and conclusions.  I shudder when I hear of MBUs conducting Sustainability because I know to a 100% that the counselors are short-changing the kids *and* cutting corners on the "no more, no less" principle.

Give the kids a GREAT merit badge "experience" instead of an inadequate class that bores them to tears and you'll have a stronger unit to show for it.

Doing exactly what you suggest is, I think, one of the big reasons my son's troop has grown to more than 70 scouts while neighboring units in the district have seen their scouts quit in frustration.  Our in-house counselors don't *require* more than the requirements, but we sure do OFFER it!

On 4/25/2019 at 10:07 PM, Ranman328 said:

We wear a uniform,. If you don't want to wear one, don't join.  

Good point.

I like scouters who say things like that.

My son's first scoutmaster was a great guy who set a strong example for the boys. When my son went for his Tenderfoot scoutmaster conference, he was told to come back next week because he was wearing jeans and red gym socks, but a Class-A shirt.  Wish more scouters would keep the bar high enough to help the boys learn pride in who they are as scouts... 

12 minutes ago, AltadenaCraig said:

• These same leaders are at best reluctant and at worst fearful of employing the equipment, even if they possessed it, because they have no experience or training in how to use it.

Good for you!

You could mention to those GSUSA leaders that if their girls become active in a BSA troop, they (the adults) could become SMs or ASMs and do the IOLS training, which would give them some experience and training in precisely the kind of outdoor skills they would need to become minimally competent (and to understand what it is that the kids need when they are working on Tenderfoot -> First Class requirements).

Many of the BSA training courses are utter rubbish, but IOLS is not. It's really the heart and soul of a "trained leader" (which is supposedly what "every scout deserves"...)

Info about what's covered by IOLS:
https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/IOLS_33640_2016.pdf 

1 minute ago, PinkPajamas said:

We're at the cub level and we have the brightest neon orange known to man. I love it for tracking kids. 

What we need are RFID tags attached to scouts...

27 minutes ago, qwazse said:

I've found that wildlife don't care what color you're wearing until someone starts shooting at them.  

Many animals are color blind anyway, and those who aren't don't pay a lot of attention to fashion trends, do they?

1 hour ago, Chisos said:

We rotate colors year to year.  Sometimes more "earth-tone" other times more "loud".  Each has its place.  The "earth-tone" fits in well with LNT principles, but I like the loud bright "Hunter Orange" if we're in the woods during hunting  season.

Not a bad idea.

I also like the loud colors when we're at an event like Scout Fair or Scout Night at the Ballpark where there might be hundreds of scouts and I want to be able spot those I'm supposed to be watching out for.

Ya know, SSScout, I think you and I are actually on the same page, just reading it from slightly different angles.

I have NEVER implied that scouting should be limited "to ONLY those kids who can do the whole outdoor thing".  On the other hand, I don't think we should be SACRIFICING any of the "whole outdoor thing" because one or more scouts SHOULD be self-selecting certain elements of the "whole thing".

I doubt that either of us will be anything less than 100% gung ho about helping a kid who needs a hand up, particularly when that scout has personal drive and ambition. A scout with a "can do" attitude will succeed regardless of what obstacles life might throw at him. I will cheer him on...

On the other hand, I think we've all seen boys get signed up in scouting (or sports, or other activities) just because mom or dad pushes them. 

Here's a story to illustrate...

A few years ago, I was coaching a youth soccer team. Our league had a policy of encouraging and supporting kids with physical and learning disabilities. That was usually a very good thing, and there were several kids who capitalized on the opportunity to overcome challenges. But they did it because they had precisely the kind of drive that you used as an example. They wanted it for THEMSELVES.  However, on one team I coached, we had a seriously autistic child who was MISERABLE on the team. The child was not really able to participate as a team player and appeared to be humiliated when his parents forced him to get out on the field with the other kids. He resisted as mom physically pulled him off the sidelines. He always wanted to run away. During practice and game days, mom would stand on the sidelines to intercept him. As much as I wanted the kid to succeed, it was very clear that he was NOT there because HE wanted to be there, but rather because MOM made him do it. I'm glad the kid has a mom who is devoted to him, but sad that mom sets him up for failure.  In my opinion, the mom would have done better by listening to the kid and letting him do activities that WOULD let him succeed. 

In that case, what can you do?  You and I are regular dads. We work for a living. And not as special educators, or as therapists or mental health professionals. We volunteer our time to provide opportunities for kids. It is simply not right for some parents to think that they can impose changes on our programs, or place demands on our time. Not right. 

When you and I volunteer to be scoutmasters, we provide a chance for kids to experience things. We want every kid to succeed....but within the confines of what we can do. 

In the case where I was a coach, should I have abandoned the game to chase after the one kid who didn't want to be there?  Should I have stopped coaching the team as a whole to devote all effort to one kid?  Should I have been expected to go earn a masters degree to learn how to successfully deal with the child who needs a professional, not a part-time volunteer?   

Somewhere, there must exist room for rational refusal of some kids in some activities and a need to educate the "special" parents as to what is and is not an acceptable accomodation. I am particularly resentful of the parents who think they have any right to demand more time and resources than I already give up voluntarily. I do what I can to support a program I believe in. I support any kid who wants to join in.  I don't support selfish parents who want a different program. 

12 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

Thank goodness for Alaska! 

Huh?

How can there be "goodness" in a place that doesn't have barbecue, Tex-Mex, the Houston Astros, Willy Nelson, Chuck Norris, and scouters like ME?

5 minutes ago, MattR said:

My wife was a girl scout as well as a counselor. She still has a fat 3 ring binder of songs and the guitar. 

It's sad to see the politics. That movie that @RememberSchiff posted from the 20s, if nothing else, was incredibly positive about developing independent, confident, helpful girls. I wish someone would replicate that message for today's youth. I think it would be a hit for parents.

Amen, my brother, AMEN!!

A bridge built is always better than a bridge burnt.

Specifically back to the point about campfires...

Does anybody REALLY think that it is in any way okay to stop doing campfires because some scout is sensitive to smoke?  SERIOUSLY?!

Campfires are a highlight of most troop's camping experience. They're fun. They provide a venue for boys to plan and lead. They create cameraderie. They're the reason many kids LIKE camping.

No responsible, competent adult scouter should entertain a parents' proposal to get rid of campfires. Instead, that parent should be asked to find ways to let their son participate comfortably, or to avoid campouts where a campfire is part of the regularly scheduled program. Campouts are an OPPORTUNITY, not a right.

Oddly enough, I find myself a bit embarassed to be so vigorously defending the right (or obligation) of a troop to do campfires....for several years, I've been promoting smaller campfires or campfire alternatives, but only for older scouts who embrace advanced "high adventure" camping and as part of Leave No Trace awareness. Small, low-impact and genuinely "no trace" campfires might be a reasonable activity for small units and more gung-ho outdoors-focused troops.  

22 minutes ago, Buggie said:

The fun is when we get some good scouts in charge and they wear the necker proudly. It causes the other scouts to start wearing theirs too. That's the current status this year. I'm pleased as punched about it. Nearly all the scouts are currently wearing it. 

A wonderful thing, indeed!  It's a true example of "boy led", isn't it?

10 minutes ago, SSScout said:

Oh, come on, mrkstvns,  we can adapt and help each other.  Of course it's an outdoor program, predominantly.  But Would you deny the kid in the wheel chair Scouting just because he/she might not be able to climb Mt. Baldy ?   Pollen masks are not a reason to deny a kid Scouting. Food allergies are not. Poison Ivy allergy (!) is not.  Fear of water is not.  I have watched a Scout without arms tie knots.   

You're only right to an extent....

OF COURSE we should be open to helping kids overcome barriers and enjoy the program to the extent possible, and I have NEVER said otherwise.  

NOBODY would ever deny scouting to a kid in a wheelchair, *BUT* neither should they deny the whole troop the OPPORTUNITY to go to Philmont and climb Mt. Baldy simply because that one kid in a wheelchair can't do it. That kid (and his parents) should recognize the child's limitations and instead only participate in those regularly scheduled activities in which their kid CAN participate safely, practically, and without the probability of personal failure and humiliation.

Turn the question around:  Would YOU deny your whole troop the chance to send a crew to Philmont because ONE parent demands that your program change to accomodate their child??

REASONABLE accomodations are reasonable. So too is awareness of the limitations and awareness of disabled members. So too would be good efforts to find adaptive solutions that let scouts extend the realm of what is or is not possible...

A scout troop's program is an OPPORTUNITY for boys to grow.  Diluting that program does a disservice to the many kids who can benefit from it.

That's a real shame....

As I read the current discussion about red jac-shirts, it occurred to me that wearing bright red colors like that jac-shirt doesn't really fit with the more natural, earth-tone colors adopted my most outdoor-focused organizations.  Come to think of it, the colors used by many BSA units for their Class-B shirts clash violently with that same earth tone focus.

Why should we even care about things like colors?

Well, most outdoor-focused organizations adopt those earth tones for a reason, and that reason has nothing whatsoever to do with fashion sense, or personal preferences. The reason most organizations go for earth tones is usually:

• Harmony with nature (dirt is brown, trees are green). Dress in those colors, and you blend in.
• Camouflage. When you blend in, you can better observe wildlife without spooking them with unnatural hues. Fellow Audubon members tell me this is why they like earth tones, but I sometimes question that given the number of brilliantly plumaged bird species...but even then, I see their point because dirt is still brown and trees are still green.
• Courtesy.  Being courteous to other outdoorsmen is one of the 7 principles of Leave No Trace, and there are a lot of people who enjoy being outdoors for the natural experience.  Day-glo green jackets, fire engine red backpacks and lemon yellow tents sure don't belong in a "natural" environment, so the more serious outdoorsmen avoid such garish fashion statements except for when golfing and yachting, where looking like a clown is acceptable behavior.

These things are discussed during the long 50-hour LNT Master Educator class, but most outdoorsmen pick up on it anyway by osmosis and experience. It's also discussed on various outdoor enthusiast sites.

One enthusiast site that enjoy perusing and pondering is "LNT Dude":  http://www.leavenotracedude.com/considerate-of-others.shtml

On this site, he says, in part...

Colors - Neutral colors help minimize the visual impact you have on others. Instead of bright yellow tents, use grey, green, or blue. Use a tan backpack cover and save the hunter orange one for hunting season. Consider the colors of your clothing and plan to wear earth-tones. This will help your group seem smaller and less noticable, especially in open areas where there is little forest cover.

So what are your thoughts?

Do colors matter in scouting?

Can we tell how serious a unit is about their outdoor skill level from the color of their Class B????

Inquiring minds want to inquire...

10 minutes ago, SSScout said:

Yep, very sad.   Let's just agree to hold to our Scout Law and Promise and move on down the trail...   

Yep.  GSUSA can damage their reputation by embracing stupidity all they want....more power to BSA if they can take the high road and simply shake it off with a good-natured laugh.