CodyMiller351

Camp Barnhardt - Central NC Council - New London, NC 

Camp Raven Knob - Old Hickory Council - Mt. Airy, NC

Camp Daniel Boone - Canton, NC

Camp Bud Schiele - Rutherfordton, NC

39 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I have often bragged that my dad was a 16 year old SM. It was the middle of WWII and there weren’t any male adults around to lead. My dad worked a deal with my grandpa that if he would sign all the paperwork, my dad would do the rest.

And he wasn’t the only one, I met another adult who was a 16 year old SM of a troop  that couldn’t find a volunteer in their small town. He was one of the best trainers I’ve ever worked with. 

Maybe we adults are making this Scouting stuff too hard.

Barry

I agree about this Scouting stuff becoming too hard/complicated. 

9 hours ago, qwazse said:

@David CO and @Ranman328, the letter of the G2SS is not being violated. GrandPaw is the SM with three ASMs, of which @CodyMiller351 is the natural leader by delegation, recognition, and talent. They have enough 21-plus around that they need the "big tent" to keep them all under canvas. The YPT boxes are checked.

Better yet, it seems GrandPaw and the other ASMs regard function over form along the lines that @Oldscout448 and @DuctTape are inclined  to recognize.

I don't know about you all, but when the SM tells me to do something along the lines of "run the troop in my absence", my job is scoutmaster. I get whatever credit or blame comes my way, and it doesn't get passed anywhere else. Same goes for my other ASMs. So, the title is "assistant" but the job is "scoutmaster."

So what's needed here? Ways to help this assistant to become a better scoutmaster. Pretending that molehills are mountains ain't it.

Thank you for your response. Hopefully they understand what you’re saying. 

10 hours ago, Ranman328 said:

@CodyMiller351, I am going to have to agree with @David CO.  According to BSA regulations you must be 21 years of age to be the Scoutmaster.  With the new YPT2 rules, you wouldn't even count toward the two deep leadership yet as the rules state "two 21 year old registered" adults.  I understand you are doing the job but there is a risk involved.  Trust me when I say this, if something happens and there are only two of you, BSA will not cover or protect you.  I know this by personally watching it happen to an Assistant Scoutmaster with over 40 years of experience in BSA.  You can get a lot of advice here on this forum but I would encourage you to read up of the rules and regulations of BSA before going out.  I only have 15 years of Scouting Experience and I am learning something new all the time.  Good Luck.

We always try to meet that rule as best as we can.  I can’t remember the last time we didn’t have 2 leaders at a Scout function that wee at least 21. 

10 hours ago, David CO said:

I am thinking of the liability issues. Yes, your Chartered Organization should be concerned. 

 

 

There is no liability issues that would differ from normal circumstances. I am not the only leader. All of are other leaders meet the “above 21” rule.  Also, I know it’s not my job, but there is a job to do. Anyone who doesn’t consider being a Scoutmaster a job doesn’t understand the entire role. 

8 hours ago, David CO said:

I see the problem. You have parents in your unit who don't accept you as the Scoutmaster, official or otherwise. I can't entirely blame them. You are not a Scoutmaster.

Your Chartered Organization should be concerned. 

I respect your input but I’m going to have to disagree. I took on this role when no one else would. I put in as much time and effort as any Scoutmaster (the size of my troop). I learned from multiple Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmaster over my time in Scouts. My Chartered Organization has no reason to worry considering I’ve done nothing but help get my Troop back on track.  The parents can accept me or not, I still have a job to do and I’m going to do it to the best of my ability. I would appreciate it if you wouldn’t say I’m not a Scoutmaster considering you have no idea of situation or the position I’m in. Thanks. 

1 minute ago, DuctTape said:

This is key. Before you talk to the "problem guy", talk to these folks and be sure you are on the same page about your vision, and expectations.  If possible, garner their help with dealing with "the problem". 

Yea that what I'll probably end up doing.  There were two other leaders on this trip who witnessed his problems, so I'll probably discuss it with them and see if they feel the same way I do.

2 minutes ago, MattR said:

That changes my understanding. First of all, a big round of applause for taking this on. Second, getting Grandpaw to help with this guy is a good idea. And any other adults. Third, officially you're an adult but the scouts are going to see you as one of them. That's a big plus. Use this to your advantage. You love backpacking and these scouts are looking up to you. So go backpacking. It doesn't all have to be long hikes. And some campouts that require all food to be cooked in dutch ovens will make for a fun break. As long as you look out for them and throw some fun things in the mix go ahead and challenge them.

Something else you might not realize but now is a really important time to start looking for webelos bridging over. If you could get 4 more scouts in February that would be awesome. I have no idea what's going on with the pack that was at your chartering organization. Anyway, it would be great to develop a relationship with a pack or two. Talk to your scouts about how important this is and see if you can get them to help with some dens. Be Den Chiefs. Invite them camping with you. Den leaders are burned out by now so reaching out to them will be greatly appreciated.

One thing about being the SM is having a vision of what the troop is about. Sharing that with everyone helps keep everyone on the same page and also is a great way to sell your troop to packs. Ask Grandpaw to help with this. We can also help.

Thanks man, appreciate the responses!  

1 minute ago, qwazse said:

BTW: ours was not a backpacking troop, and water purification was foreign to us. I remember nighttime insertions where we would go back those hundreds of yards to shuttle the 20 gal army surplus water bottle!

Next time, talk to the state park ranger about a primitive site removed from the cars.

Grandpaw's still "wearing the patch." So, commit to sitting down with him to review each weekend you all go on. Just give him the good, the bad, and the ugly as you saw it. Most of SM's and Advisor's get a reputation for not being the easiest people to deal with. The more adults you deal with the more you'll understand why. It might seem like a nuisance, but in the long run all that talk might make you a team.

I remember our first time trying to get purified water on a backpacking trip.  Our first experience was also late at night and it took forever to find the spring.  

9 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

This may not work for you, but even at a State campground, there is often a main parking lot. Use that and then hike into the campground area. This will also free up space in the site to use. 

Do you have the support of any other adult leaders (besides grandpaw?)

Yes, I have the support of the other leaders (probably 3 in total that show up regularly).  

2 minutes ago, qwazse said:

So, how far from your vehicles were you when you difficult leader started blowing smoke about the big tent?

Honestly, growing up, our SM never parked the car within eyesight of the camp. Note: I said "car" -- singular because the other drivers dropped us off and picked us up at the end of the weekend.

I think you need to bounce this off of Grandpaw, and have him tell it like it is to these adults. The result might not always go your way. But, if he lays out a standard of conduct, your odds of this errant adult falling in line are a little better.

For this past trip (where we had problems with the leader) our cars were parked right at the campsite.  This wasn't a backpacking trip and we were staying in a state park campground.  For our backpacking trips, we aren't near the vehicles at all.  The problem with Grandpaw is he doesn't go on any of the trips so he doesn't see the problems.  He also isn't the easiest person to deal with himself.  

13 hours ago, qwazse said:

Simple plan (one you can explain to the boys): choose each campsite twice as far from the cars as was chosen on the previous campout. By the end of spring, you'll be hiking in a quarter mile; summer, a mile or two; late fall, four to six miles. Boys grow fast! Call the rangers at most camps, they will be more than happy to set this up for you. Many have special sites set aside for folks to hike into. Others have trails or canoe treks between a sister camp.

Three adults + three scouts. That, some rope, and some tarps ... and you're good to go. 

Give your adults full warning that they are to get in shape or find someone trustworthy who is. The "big tent" is to be the exception, not the rule.

Don't worry, there'll still be plenty of opportunities for close quarters: camporees, webelos weekends, etc ... but your scouts will get the idea and maybe share it with a buddy or two, and hopefully by the end of the year they'll be a tight knit patrol and your difficult leader will worship the ground you walk on.

We have done a good number of 10 miles hikes and backpacking trips.  The past couple years we have been doing 2-3 backing trips a year.  Grayson Highlands is our favorite spot so far but we just don't get to spend enough time there during one weekend.  

13 hours ago, David CO said:

OK. Who is officially the Scoutmaster?

Another one of our leaders (also my Grandpaw) accepted the official title as Scoutmaster once we lost ours a couple months ago.  I said I am unofficially the Scoutmaster because he put all of the responsibilities on me and I accepted.  The only reason I am not the official Scoutmaster is because I am only 19.  

17 hours ago, TMSM said:

Sure it depends on the site size and available sites, we camp so the scouts can camp and do what scouts do. I expect adults in my troop to be flexible with tent size and be available to suppport what the scouts want to do. 

With only 3 scouts it sounds like a new troop trying to form so best to start off by creating a scout led troop. Good luck!

Actually we are a 50 year old troop.  We have had a rough past 2 years, with our charter organization dropping us cause of problems with the cub pack, losing more than half our troop due to parent problems, and trying to renovate our scout hut.  I'm am trying to rebuild and get us back to a decent troop but I have very little support.  

25 minutes ago, wdfa89 said:

alrighty then.  my apologies.  I must have read your post wrong or more into it than was there. 

It’s all good man.  Didn’t give all the information cause I felt like I was writing a book. Haha.  Appreciate the response. 

5 minutes ago, wdfa89 said:

You lost me here.  The other stuff (well except for the phone) is, I guess possibly open for discussion on the best way to deal with the boys.  anyway until he is removed his opinion could be considered.  But I am a grown up.  No one is going to tell me where to tent, let alone that I must tent with another adult.  Certainly ig f that isn't the previously established policy/procedure (which I could then opt out of an event if I do not wish to comply).  I would have told him to stuff it right then and there, or enjoy his big tent all by his lonesome.

Actually you lost me at the "he gave me crap..."  We are all volunteers here, trying to do our best.  I am not taking any crap off another volunteer.  good natured ribbing sure or useful. constructive criticism sure--I am not perfect and can learn plenty from more experienced folks.  But genuine crap umm nope.  Again, I am a grown up and unless we are in some official capacity where I sort of have to take it (and since retiring from the military I can't imagine that scenario anymore) I am not going to suffer fools who think they are in charge very well.

I would have had zero problems asking him to kill the phone or go to his car if he has to watch.  Our troop has a zero electronic policy at scout events (other than calling home if needed).  The grown ups try real hard to set the example on that.  The language would be a no brainer to me.  Again no problem going to the mattresses straight away on that. 

But if not losing him (and his boy) outweighs the other stuff then I think you are hosed.  You have surrendered the leverage and are stuck IMO.

 

The only reason I gave in the his “big tent” demand is that there wasn’t much room to put multiple other leader tents since the big one would take up most of the plot space (it was a state park campsite so there is not much tent room).  I didn’t really allow him to give me crap.  I stood my ground and told him what I needed to tell him.  

26 minutes ago, MattR said:

I don't know who the SM is but he needs to get on top of this now. There are all sorts of red flags going off in my mind. Inappropriate games (we have a fairly strict policy about phone usage). "I'll never let my son fail." Ignoring everyone else. Whining about stuff. This is not a list of problems, this is one problem. This is an adult that doesn't get it and never has. He is not a team player. This is a mess and the only way it will be resolved is to start by saying this is the way we do things and if you don't like it then you can not go on campouts with us anymore. I realize this sounds harsh but I've been in this situation before. Finding him another job will not solve this problem.

The first time it happens everyone is looking at each other with a quizzical look on their face. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Don't get fooled twice.

Now, it might be that the situation I was in was dealing with a much worse personality but at a minimum this guy needs some hard, simple boundaries set (you do not instruct any scout on anything, you do not buy any food). Certainly if I were you I'd sit down with him and explain to him how the scouts do things and what the adults are not allowed to do. It would be great if it worked but don't be surprised if it doesn't. I spent a couple of months dealing with such a person. He finally went to another troop and that poor SM had to deal with him until finally the Council put his son in lone scouts. I felt sorry for the boy, he was a reasonable kid.

Unofficially, I am the Scoutmaster.  I am pretty much giving him one more strike. If he does something else out of line, then we’ll sit down and have a chat. I don’t want to lose him because he’ll obviously take his son with him and that would leave us with only 2 scouts but I’m not willing to sacrifice our other scouts just to please this leader. 

Can you send that boy to my Troop please? Haha. I am in need of a couple boys like that. 

8 minutes ago, qwazse said:

I see a lot of back-country backpacking trips in your future!

I honestly hope so but we just don’t have the boys for it right now. I love backpacking but the best place we’ve gone so far is Grayson Highlands. I really want to do more back-country/high adventure stuff but we only have 3 guys (including myself) who would be able to. 

8 minutes ago, FireStone said:

Sounds like the typical guy who knows everything about everything and can tell everyone what they're doing wrong. That's fine. I'd invite him to sign up to take on those roles that he feels the troop is deficient in. If he thinks he can better plan outings, maybe there's an opening on the committee for Outdoor Activity Chair. If he's a recruiting expert, he can be the next Recruitment Chair.

More volunteers are always needed in Scouting. Sounds like he's highly motivated to take on many new roles. 😉

 

It’s funny because he has said before how he didn’t like adult leaders who would just tell you what your doing wrong but yet he is doing that exact thing. We have a committee meeting tomorrow so I might explore your idea on offering him one of those roles. I have a feeling he will decline my offer though. 

I am in need of more help from y'all.  My troop has obtained a difficult leader over this past year.  During our camping trip last weekend I noticed his "flaws" in a big way.  He started off by showing up Friday with bags and bags of cooking equipment that he got for the Troop.  Now the day before we made a list of a couple things we needed and he decided he wanted to volunteer to make these purchases (which I appreciate).  He also decided to buy food items that were not on the menu (I went to buy the groceries so that kind of upset me) and he gave me crap for not buying anything for desert.  I explained to him that I bought everything on the menu and if the boys wanted desert then they should have put it on the menu.  Anyways we depart and arrive at the state park.  We begin setting up camp and he states that all of the leaders should stay in one big tent instead of our personal tents.  I explain to him that we only stay in one big tent during our beach trip which was last month.  This really isn't an issue but he wouldn't budge.  Finally I gave in and set up the big tent.  After we set up camp, we tell the boys to get a fire going.  They struggle at first and the leader steps in right away.  He completely takes over and begins to "teach" them.  I say teach with quotes because I don't agree with his teaching methods (it's either his way or the highway).  After a good 30 minutes, a fire appears.  One other leader explains why we should have let the boy "fail" in a sense (which would help them eventually learn), which I agreed with.  The difficult leader disagrees with us and says he will never "let" his boy "fail".  Moving on, we are sitting around the fire at night and this leader begins playing videos on his phone.  Now I didn't have a problem with this (but I did want some peace and quite to enjoy nature) until the videos got inappropriate.  There was a good amount of bad language in some of these videos, which doesn't bother me, but it bothered one of our other leaders. He didn't say anything but you cold tell he was upset.  We all went to bed and that was the end of that (until it happened the next day again).  The next day (also our last day) he decided he didn't want to do the hike we had planned.  I understood since he struggled the day before on our hike and he isn't in the best shape.  The thing that bother me is before we left on our hike, he complained that "we need to plan our trips better".  This was in reference to our menu again.  This time it was about our lunches in which we divided out between everyone before the first hike.  He didn't think we had anything for lunch because neither of the boys decided to put anything in their day packs.  I tried to explain to him that I bought enough for two lunch for everyone and some extra but he wasn't having it.  He walked away and while we hiked for 4 hours he sat in his car.  Overall his flaws are: use of inappropriate language, not knowing his place, thinking he knows everything, thinking everything has to be his way, going against what we planned. He also disagrees with our plans for the troop (remodeling our scout hut, recruiting, etc.).  It's sad because his son is the same way.  Sorry for the long post and I know I am making my troop seem like a horrible place but we've had a rough past two years and I am trying to get us back on the right track.  

I think I am confused but maybe I just didn't read something right.  Why was the Committee upset?  If the Scout did not reveal that information himself, then why is it on the Scoutmaster to reveal that information to the Committee?  This kid is trying to get his Eagle Scout award, why should I care if he is a dad as well?  If he didn't tell the board, then that's that.  Not that I wouldn't care, actually I would be impressed because I know how much time and effort it takes to get the Eagle award without being a father.  I didn't explain to my Eagle Board every detail of my personal life.  I discussed what actually mattered.  

I feel your son's pain.  I was in the same boat as a scout.  I even felt this way going to Summer Camp in Boy Scouts.  All of the singing and dancing and skits... it just wasn't for me.  Most of my Troop looked "down" on me for this.  I wouldn't participate in the songs or dances or whatever unless they drug me out there.  I wasn't the only boy who felt this way though.  Once I got a little older, I would skip out on the camp fires at Summer Camp because I just hated it.  I like camping not performing skits and singing.  I think what you are doing is fine.  Let your boy do what he enjoys.  You don't want him to get to a point where he doesn't even want to go on a trip because of the skits and "fun".  

I am curious, how many boys do you need for the patrol method to work?  Right now my troop has 3 boys so we really don't use the patrol method since it wouldn't really work.  I want to get back to the point where we have multiple patrols but it's going to take some time?  

One of the Assistant Scoutmasters in my Troop and one of my Best Friends.  He is probably the coolest guy I’ve every met.  He is also the reason I’m a volunteer firefighter (he is one as well). 

Just now, Jameson76 said:

First - lots of adult drama seems to be in play, but let's power through that

Scouts are the best recruits for Scouts.  The best way to get boys not involved is PROGRAM.  Not advancement, not meetings, not citizenship, etc etc, it's PROGRAM.  Get your 3 active scouts to clearly set a calendar of OUTDOOR PROGRAMMING.  That is the selling point for other boys to engage, what will THEY be doing, what is in it for them.  Go Do Stuff.  Get the dates set and get a plan to go do things.  Not sure where you are but that is what will get the boys to show up.

Canoeing, kayaking. hiking, wide games, biking, etc etc.  PROGRAM brings in Scouts.  The other key items like advancement, citizenship, and leadership can be built once you get them engaged

 

Yes, there is (mostly was) plenty of adult drama.  I am doing my best to get rid of all that and focus on our boys but some of our leaders are more focus on how we have been "wronged" and "betrayed".  I have been trying to get us to do at least one trip per month.  That trip is usually either a backpacking trip or a normal camping trip.  One of the main problems though is lack of help from my other leaders.  Most have little commitment and are mainly just worried about their kid (which is fine but a little help would be nice).  We have a lot on our plate right now (including renovating our Scout Hut) but I am trying to get our priorities right.  We have to have more boys.  It's as simple as that.  I appreciate your feedback!