FireStone

What I don't get is why anyone feels it necessary to wear the Eagle rank badge as an adult, when there are plenty of opportunities to display your Eagle accomplishment in other ways. There's the square knot (and 2 varieties to choose from if you want to pony up for the NESA Life Member option), Eagle neckerchiefs (again, multiple options), You can throw in an Eagle neckerchief slide if you want to, or wear an Eagle bolo, Eagle belt buckle, if your Council has a special Eagle shoulder patch you can wear that. There are Eagle rings, necklaces, jackets patches, various other patches and emblems, hats, dog tags, walking stick medallions, pins, bumper stickers, keychains, the list goes on and on. 

When not in uniform you can wear an Eagle t-shirt. Or you can wear it under your uniform for even more Eagle-ness.

If someone really feels the need to show off their Eagle accomplishment beyond the youth rank badge, there are more than enough ways to do it. Insisting on wearing a youth badge on an adult uniform is just unnecessary, and frankly a distraction from youth achievement. There is a reason that square knots are small and understated. This is a youth organization, and we celebrate youth accomplishments above all others. 

Wear your square knot and go drop a paycheck on all of the Eagle paraphernalia you want at the Scout Shop. You can literally cover yourself (and your car and your desk) with Eagle stuff. 

4 hours ago, David CO said:

I really wish you guys would stop putting down athletics. My CO has always made an effort to have the athletes and scouts all treat each other with respect. They even have a combined awards night that includes both athletics and scouting.

But if you insist on bashing sports, you should at least get your facts straight. I was the administrator for both the sports teams and the scout troop. I know that your lopsided comparisons of the costs/benefits of scouting and athletics don't really add up.

We should focus our efforts on making all extra-curricular activities more affordable to low income families. We shouldn't be pitting one activity against another. 

 

I didn't think I was putting anything down, this is just my assessment of a cost comparison to what we most often get compared to, which is sports. 

Scouting is often viewed as the more costly activity, which I think is unfair being that we're a year-round activity. I'm not pitting anything against anything else. I just get tired of hearing about how expensive Scouting is, meanwhile families are doing other things that I believe are actually more expensive on a cost-per-month basis. 

I think it's all still a bargain compared to other activities. Our local little league costs $125 per season (includes team t-shirt and cap) but that's for 3 months. If it were year-round like Scouting, that fee would probably be $500, and although their "uniform" is paid for in the registration fee, equipment isn't. Probably at least another $100+ annually for gloves, bats, pants, socks, etc. Want to do a week of summer baseball camp or extra training? That will cost more than the regular season. And it all gets you access to a grassy field. 

Scouting gets you access to indoor and outdoor spaces, camping spots, various resources, learning opportunities, events, B&G, PWD, affordable summer camps compared to other non-Scouting options, numerous other connected opportunities like OA, STEM initiatives, leadership training and opportunities, etc. 

8 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

...As for incorporating the OA into my role as a den leader, well, since my Webelos are always asking (then forgetting, then asking again x 100) what all my patches are for, I have many chances to talk about my OA flap and what the organization both means and does. It's something I encourage them to look for and look forward to as I prepare them to become Boy Scouts and animate them towards increasing their "Scout Spirit." When they move up to Boy Scouts, it's something they already know about and are anxious to join. It's never too early; it's never too late!

 

That's a really good point that I hadn't considered. I don't think it will be as useful in my Den just yet (Tigers), but as the boys get older and closer to thinking about life in a Troop, it could be a good opportunity to talk about this program that I think very few Cub Scouts even know about before they enter a Troop. It is always a good thing to be able to present opportunities to do more fun things in Scouting. The more we can offer in terms of the "here's what you can do when you cross over" type of stuff, hopefully the more likely we are to see Scouts continue on after crossing over. 

A nearby Pack is celebrating 75 years under the same charter and CO this fall. In discussing it with one of their committee members I asked them if they were doing anything special to mark the occasion. His response was, "I have no idea. Any suggestions?" To which I also had no ideas and only could offer this suggestion: "I think there's a uniform patch for that." 

What do units typically do for these big milestone anniversaries? After giving it a little more thought I was thinking maybe a special patch (not just the 75 bar, something custom-designed) for the uniform pocket (or backpack or jacket, etc). Maybe a picnic or some sort of celebration. 

Has your unit ever celebrated a big anniversary? What did you do?

I was a Brotherhood OA member as youth, and I understand that I can re-establish lodge membership as an adult. My old lodge merged into the current local lodge so I guess it would just be a matter of verifying previous lodge membership. 

My question is this: I'm a Tiger DL. Are there often other Cub level adults active in OA? I get the feeling it's more of a Troop-level thing for adults. There is no one else in my Pack who is OA, and although I'm sure that personally I'd enjoy becoming active and participating in lodge activities, I'm just wondering if this is the right time to do it. 

Do most folks just wait until their son(s) get elected and then re-join then?

8 minutes ago, Ranman328 said:

Never said anyone attacked neckerchiefs.  What I said is that lately, "ANYTHING DEALING WITH TRADITION" is attacked.  Not just in Scouting but ANYTHING dealing with TRADITION.  Seems like we have people that go around and see what kind of trouble they can cause and protest long standing traditions.

I assumed we were talking about neckerchiefs, this being a thread about neckerchiefs. Thank you for clarifying. 

3 hours ago, Ranman328 said:

I think you answered your own question "accepting the tradition".  Lately, anything dealing with tradition is attacked and must be changed...

I wish BSA would invest in a better cloth and go back to the larger neckerchief.  I always keep a bandanna in my pocket.  Great utility item.

Actually there have been hints that the BSA is going back to a more "traditional" necker style and wear. I'm not sure anyone has ever attacked neckerchiefs (we all have preferences, but I don't remember hearing any calls for national change in policy regarding neckerchiefs), and as mentioned, it seems that tradition is actually coming back around on this topic. 

On 6/8/2018 at 6:37 PM, SSScout said:

Why do American Scouts/Scouters have so much trouble accepting the tradition, the history inherent in that scrap of cloth ?

It's not all Americans, I know the BPSA-US wears large square neckers.

I think the BSA screwed up the image of the necker. Just a theory, but I suspect that in the constant evolution of the BSA uniform to look more and more militaristic (the short-sleeve open-collar beige shirt with dark pants look), the necker didn't fit in with that image. So it was shrunk, to the point where it started to look ridiculous and Scouts started to reject it.

I'm actually hopeful that we're seeing a resurgence of the larger necker in the BSA. Larger sizes are starting to show up, and some recent videos and materials out of the BSA show necker-without-uniform wear, in the UK style of a friendship knot tied at the bottom. 

I don't wear one, but I'd like to. I'm a big guy and the standard (small) BSA adult necker size looks kind of silly on me. I prefer to just go without. But I also just recently picked up a Cub Leader neckerchief, in the "new larger size: 49 1/2 x 35 x 35", and it actually fits me decently. If larger is the trend, I think there's hope for us to catch up with the rest of the world on modern necker style and usage. 

I think we also need to do something about the plain flat design of American neckers. So many of them don't have the edge border that UK (and similar) neckers all have, which I think adds a lot of style to the look. I have that CS Leader necker, which is just blue with a very think yellow edge. Another guy in my pack has a Jambo necker with that cool thick border on it, and it's no question his looks so much better than mine. I'm sure those are more expensive to produce, but it also makes the necker more iconic and interesting, which I think would encourage more usage and wear. 

1 hour ago, Terasec said:

scouts is now 90% arts and crafts

 

I'm wrapping up my year as a Tiger DL and I can that our year was pretty much the inverse of what you describe. I can think of maybe 2 den meetings that were heavy on arts and crafts. The rest of the year we were playing games, learning scout skills, we did 3 service projects, went camping 3 times, went on multiple fishing, hiking, and other day-trips, etc. 

Maybe your program is 90% arts and crafts, but if that's the case, that's a unit issue, not a Scouts issue. 

I really dislike the spiral-bound books. They feel flimsy and weak compared to perfect-bound. And from the adult-who-carries-a-bag-full-of-stuff-to-every-meeting perspective, the perfect-bound books were just more compact, easier to cram into a bag with other materials.

I was happy to have the option, but now it seems the option is gone. 

There is definitely a heavy amount of photos featuring girls, which will surely make some heads explode (I'm still floored that someone said they'd quit over any inclusion of girls in the handbooks). But I think they're all really well-done photos and are helpful in illustrating the activities and skills. 

Coming from the BSA, this doesn't mean much. Wasn't it just a year or two before they lifted the ban on gay scouts that they also reaffirmed their commitment to that policy? 

On 5/26/2018 at 8:02 PM, ScoutMama43 said:

...I have been in email contact with the troop CC who does not seem happy with my questions at all..

 

So a kid gets kicked out of a troop and the CC is annoyed to answer questions from the parent of the boy? That's absurd. What did they expect you to do? Just say, "Oh, thanks for kicking out my son. Have fun on the next outing!". 🙄

Like T2Eagle, I've looked at this as being open to interpretation, or at lease open to unit culture and individual preferences. Locally here, I know of one troop that has a strict policy limited electronics use on campouts, for example, and another local troop that has almost no rule about it and you'll often see the boys sitting around, noses in their screens. During downtime, mostly, thankfully. But there is stark contrast to how both troops operate in this regard. 

Officially, I don't think there is an official policy for the whole organization. 

16 hours ago, SSF said:

Did you not see the one headline I shared...that was from the Hollywood Reporter. There are lots of others from other trades and outlets that say the same exact thing.

I rest my case there. 

Sorry you're upset. Do get together with Latin Scot and  Chadmus and make plans to see Solo again a few dozen times, if that makes you feel better.

I saw the headline. I didn't see the data I asked about. So I'll ask again: Where is the evidence that "most" people feel a certain way about the direction of the SW films? Where is the evidence that "most" people are against what the BSA is doing? 

Opinion pieces that make the same generalizations are not data. Comments on social media are not data. Is ther any actual data what-so-ever that your generalizations are at all factually accurate? 

3 hours ago, SSF said:

I'm glad you've enjoyed Disney's take on Star Wars, but the number of fans who share your opinion is shrinking fast.

Please don't try to confuse the issue. We're no longer talking about The Last Jedi's box office returns, we're now talking about Solo's box office returns...and in the greater scheme, how the opinions of the majority can be so easily cast aside by an elitist minority, who believe that "The Force is Female" and that girls should be in the Boy Scouts. (For the record, I would be equally opposed to including boys in the Girl Scouts.)

You use a lot of generalizations. Is there any actual data that supports any of these ideas? That "most people" were put off by the tone of The Last Jedi? That any of this is the majority opinion? I have yet to see any data that supports the idea that the BSA decision is fueled by an "elitist minority." What (little) data we have from the BSA says the opposite. 

I'd feel better about my status as an "elitist minority" if I saw any real facts that prove it. 

5 hours ago, JoeBob said:

Topic: Putting the pieces together, page 4: Bearess said:

"Well, my son’s Troop (in a rural but very liberal state) already has mixed patrols.  They currently have six girls, out of a troop of thirty. "

Did you forget?

Apparently I did, but that wasn't what I had in mind. Or at least I should have phrased my response differently to clarify.

Rogue units jumping the gun or going against the program policies don't make the CSE a liar, which was the implication I was replying to. 

I think people are just burned out on Star Wars. My brother-in-law is a die-hard SW fan, has multiple Star Ward tattoos and always goes to opening night releases for the new films. He hasn't seen Solo yet.

Disney is over-doing it, that's why Solo numbers are lower than typical for a Star Wars film. They were announcing the Boba Fett film as Solo came out. Is every character going to get their own film now? Maybe there's still hope for Jar Jar to make a comeback.

I just don't think it's a fair comparison to the BSA. The film franchise and our organization have very different challenges and different factors in play when it comes to their successes and failures. 

1 hour ago, scoutmom86 said:

Can the CM do whatever he or she wants t? It’s a chartered organization. She doesn’t own it. There is a committee. And a company that sponsors the Pack.

With that being said, in any instance of any ingrievance anyone has, does she truly have the authority to make decisions that affect the Pack on her own without committee approval?

The Chartered Organization is the authority over anything else at the unit level. As it relates to who can be a member of the pack and who can't, the CO outranks the CM and committee. 

In my pack the CM actually comes in fairly low in terms of authority on policy and procedure. The committee has, on occasion, voted to override a CM decision. Not sure if that is standard BSA procedure or not, though. 

1 hour ago, Oldscout448 said:

We have mixed dens now,   we have mixed troops now.  not some where in the future, not in a few years,  now.   Only a few but no one doubts that there  are going to be more and more of them until they are the norm.

If you really think that our CEO will be surprised by this,  I have a bridge to sell you.  No checks please, cash and in small bills 

Where are there mixed troops now?

So we should call our CSE a liar because at the local unit level some people are going against the design of the program as it pertains to gender? 

On 4/6/2018 at 8:33 PM, scoutmom86 said:

So long as we only scrutinize one person in particular who we know because your friend is a gossip? Not all the other people participating as felons, as you all have said that it didn’t matter if it was blood related or not.

I've just read through this entire thread and I think my problem with this whole issue is your focus on your boyfriend being singled out. If your CM, Committee, or CO don't know about other possible felons attending activities, we don't know how they would react if they did know. But based on how this has been handled so far, I suspect those other folks would endure similar scrutiny. 

Regardless, I would suggest just accepting things as they are and not pushing the matter. Even when his son is a Lion, there is no guarantee of accepting him as a participant. Your CO has the right to exclude anyone, for any reason, criminal record or not. I have no criminal record, not even a speeding ticket, but if my CO decided they just didn't like me, they could send me packing tomorrow. That's the perks of the CO, they are the absolute authority on who can participate in a unit and who can't. Press the issue too hard and you could find your whole family asked to leave. 

Is that right? I don't think so. But again, COs can decide whatever they want. If you approach this with the attitude that "they’re going to have to swallow it all next year when his actual son is a Lion Cub," I think you might find things could actually get worse. 

Accept the decision of the CM, and use the time between now and his son joining to help him prove his commitment to living a better life. You can't be concerned about any other families, parents, participants, and their backgrounds. This is just about you and your boyfriend. And don't give the CM or anyone else a reason to make an even bigger issue of it. 

14 hours ago, Gwaihir said:

It's not "outrage",  outrage is reserved for Hamas terrorists killing Jews.  This is anger, but not because of a name change.  CSE Michael Saurbaugh repeatedly stated the BSA respects and believes in the differences between boys and girls and will stand by the benefits of single-gender to reach those unique differences... and then purposefully and with intent they do the exact opposite.  It's called lying, and what amazes me most is how easily some so willing accept the lying as something that's a-ok.  I often wonder what other points of the Scout law are so nonchalantly disregarded in some of the units around the country because "trustworthy" is not even on the radar any longer. 

Changing the name of a magazine doesn't change the way we teach kids, in single-gender groups or otherwise. Nor does changing the name of a program.

He didn't lie. The original plan, what he spoke of, was single-gender Dens and/or single-gender Packs, and single-gender Troops. That's what we're going ahead with, still teaching kids in gender-specific groups. There was no "lying". 

So your implication that the Scout Law is "nonchalantly disregarded" by me or anyone else is, as you like to say, "trash." 

11 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

...You can have all the outrage at it that you want, but it's just the evolution of the decision they made last year. 

I still can't believe there is even outrage at all over a magazine title. Then again, this forum never ceases to amaze me with what brings out the pitchforks. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that someone is threatening to quit because there will be photos of girls in the handbooks. 

6 minutes ago, NealOnWheels said:

...You may or may not be able to appeal that decision.  Even if you could you probably do not want to stay in that toxic environment.  I would suggest moving to a different unit...

 

I kind of got the same vibe, that if it's just a few months into this family's experience with this troop and already this kind of problem is arrising, more than a bit concerning about the future prospects of this unit and if it's even possible to have a positive experience at all going forward with that unit. No matter the outcome of any appeal, moving to a different unit might be the best option.  

Kind of related to my original post and where I think we are going from here, in particular modeling the BSA after Scouts UK, as it relates to uniforms I think we should expect more of the UK model there as well. In the "Adding Girls to the Pack" thread (page 9) on this forum there is a video with Anthony Berger, and towards the end he talks about how the WOSM regards just the neckerchief as being "in uniform". And he's wearing his neckerchief in the UK style, with the friendship knot. 

I fully expect to see more of this and a reduced emphasis on Class A uniforming in the BSA. I think we'll always have Class A, but more for ceremonies, COH, Blue & Gold, formal events, etc. In fact I think this video was pretty much confirmation (unofficially of course) that this is happening already. We should expect to see more of the UK-style larger neckers in the BSA, especially going into WSJ '19.