FireStone

5 minutes ago, JoeBob said:

Who is going to start the GoFundMe account for bailing out WOSM personnel who violate West Virginia law by giving condoms to underage children?

What law? I don't think such a law exists. 

2 hours ago, gblotter said:

In summer 2019, girl troops and boy troops will start attending BSA summer camps at the same time. Following your logic, should condoms be made available to Scouts by camp staff (regardless of what G2SS says)? Or should G2SS be changed to permit sexual activity at Scouting events?

I think my "logic" will differ a little when we're talking about a BSA-only event. We're talking about a global event here, so a little flexibility and understanding that other scouting organizations and their approach to this topic maybe being different from ours would make sense to me. 

In the BSA specifically, the availability of condoms is a little odd to me because asking for one means you just became eligible for possible expulsion from the organization. I'd be very surprised if any BSA scout goes to WSJ '19 and asks for a condom knowing that it might be the last thing they do in Scouting. Or second-to-last thing anyway. But even that is still preferable in my opinion, if the alternative is doing it unprotected and risking far more than their Scouting career. 

8 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

There's a difference in a Scout and his/her parents making an informed decision about an event and its rules vs. the BSA endorsing a set of rules in contravention of its own policies.

The G2SS very clearly says, No Alcohol, No Sexual Activity allowed at scout events.  There's no asterisk.   "WOSM made me do it" is weak tea.

 

I haven't been a leader for very long, but I've already observed more than once that saying, "Don't do that, you might get hurt," frequently doesn't prevent the activity from taking place anyway. I wish that were different, but realistically I know that I carry a first aid kit everywhere because things happen, even seemingly preventable things, and occasionally some things that happen in the course of a violation of G2SS despite every effort to avoid it. If a Scout who is too young to use a saw still manages to get his/her hands on a saw and gets hurt, it doesn't do me much good at that point to say, "Well, G2SS says you shouldn't have had that saw." 

We can tell Scouts, "Don't have sex at Jambo," and certainly hope for the best. But I, like a lot of folks here, was a teenage boy once, and I did stupid things even though adults warned me against them. I'd rather Scouts have an opportunity to be less stupid and reckless while being stupid and reckless. 

It's not ideal. It's not G2SS compliant. But it's a preventative health measure for a problem that is going to exist no matter how much we try to prevent it from happening.

16 hours ago, ParkMan said:

Nah - you don't need to spend that money every year.

The pack should buy new neckerchiefs for every scout.  Make it part of the program.  Add in $10 to the dues at the beginning of the year.  Don't require the hat.  Each den should make their own neckerchief slides.

The scouts buy one belt buckle when they start cubs, one when they get the tan uniform.

I regret buying my son the Tiger belt buckle. I have no idea if any of the other Tigers in his den are wearing the Tiger buckle or not. There should be one buckle type for Cub Scouts. 

Same with the neckerchief slide. It's just wasteful to change it every year. 

10 minutes ago, Gwaihir said:

...they can always count on former boy scouts and eagle scouts to be members.  It feels like these decisions were all made under the assumption that Boy scout and eagle scout alum would sign their families up regardless of what they did to change the program.  Now, I have no more to go on except that little blurb, but it certainly seems to me that the dropping of all traditions and history in lieu of a completely new scouting would seem to mesh with this theory. 

 

I have a hard time believeing that they really felt that way. When the BSA still banned gay scouts and units were actively kicking out gay kids or blocking Eagle applications for gay scouts, many Eagle Scouts (myself included) were appalled and vowed never to rejoin the BSA while that policy stood. Some Eagle Scouts returned their medals to National during that time. 

I would think that that was a clear indication that no group is guaranteed to support whatever National does in terms of membership policy changes. 

4 minutes ago, David CO said:

I believe the last world scout jamboree to be held in the United States was in 1967, long before the WOSM policy was adopted. So, it shouldn't be surprising that the topic hasn't received much attention here (before now).

I think it is obvious that the timing of these articles is due to the 2019 jamboree being held in the United States, and has little to do with the other issues. This would have been a "story" even if the membership changes hadn't taken place this year.

BSA families have been sending scouts to World Jambo all this time, though. Surely this isn't an issue now just because the condoms are being made available on US soil. If there is any outrage about this now, there should have been the same 4 years ago. Otherwise this is just a cover for being upset about the membership policy changes. 

55 minutes ago, 69RoadRunner said:

The BSA does not approve, but World Scouting is mandating the availability of condoms at the World Jamboree.  Apparently this is not new, but it's hitting the news now along with all of the other changes going on with Boy Scouts.

I'm really starting to get the feeling that people who want to destroy the Boy Scouts from within are now in top leadership positions.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/may/22/boy-scouts-require-condoms-upcoming-world-jamboree/

This statement makes no sense. You acknowledge immediately that "this is not new", but then go on to imply that this is part of some planned destruction of the BSA by people now in top leadership positions. Many (if not all) of those leaders would have nothing to do with condom availability at a World Jambo because those top leaders probably didn't have those positions anyway when condoms were first made available at a World Jambo all those years ago. 

If anything, this seems like a well-timed article aimed at taking advantage of other national BSA news to attack the reputation of the organization and exploit current opposition to the various membership policy changes. 

I carry a messenger bag, which I guess is sort of purse-like. 😄

It is probably overkill for my current job and 15-minute car commute, but I think it's a bit of a holdover from my days working in NYC and it was necessary. It's a lot lighter these days, but I still always have a pocketknife, flashlight, sketchbook, pens & pencils, pillbox, business cards (personal as well as Pack cards), water bottle, and occasionaly a laptop.

16 minutes ago, Gwaihir said:

Nonsense. he's not using strawmen arguments.  earlier in his piece (posted above) he clearly states that he understands the current plan is for girls to have their own troops.  There is no straw man.  He's saying he doesn't think girls and boys should be in the same troop.... SHOULD we get to that place.  Read the whole piece. 

 

I read the whole piece. It doesn't matter what he wrote previously. When you lead into a point of argument with hypothetical non-issues, that's a strawman.

2 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Let's get back in the USA and with more thoughtful, relevant responses to Mike Rowe's comments.

The enemy is bad (BSA) ideology, and the inability to effectively confront it. Do I favor co-ed Scouting? Hell no. I can’t think of a single good reason to put girls and boys in the same troop, the same tent, the same boxing ring, or the same game of British Bulldog. But I can think of many good reasons to include them in a unified effort to confront the siren song of “safe spaces.”

Someone has to challenge the insipid belief that safety is the most important part of living. Someone has to challenge the idea that feelings trump achievement. Someone has to challenge the idea that “crying closets” on campuses designed to console stressed out students who just can’t handle their finals exams, (or the outcome of a presidential election,) will produce a responsible, productive adult.

 

But we're not putting them in the same troop or tent. I don't disagree with Mike's comments on safe spaces, but he's using strawman arguments to build his case. 

Interestingly enough, he makes a good point about creating a unified effort in challenging the "safe spaces" movement. I think he could still make as strong a point without resorting to the "boys and girls tenting together" fear mongering. 

18 hours ago, Cambridgeskip said:

...It doesn't meant you can't have and use one. I'll be hiking in a remote part of scotland next month. I will certainly have it about me then. I will probably walk to the local shop tomorrow. I won't have it with me then. Why would I?...

 

Everyone's "why would I" is going to be different, and often times unpredictable. I don't need a flashlight every day, but the one day I really did need one I didn't have one (I was on the 21st floor of a building in NYC when the city went dark and the building's backup generator failed). I don't want to ever have to make my way down that many stairs in the dark again, so now there is a flashlight in my bag every day. 

Maybe I don't need a pocket knife every day, but I have one for the times when it might be useful. We won't always know what those times will be, but to me it's something easy enough to carry daily even if the "why would I" need it is a rare occasion. 

17 hours ago, Gwaihir said:

"blue and gold" are the colors of the Cub Scouts.  The "Pack" and the "wolf" are at the center of the "Cub Scouts".  Changing Wolves to red is foolish.  Make the lions red.  

I don't think it's foolish at all. Pretty smart, actually. Wolves have been the only rank that has the primary "brand" colors of Cub Scouts as their rank colors. Now we have blue and gold as the overall Cub Scout colors, and we distinguish all ranks individually with their own unique colors. Wolves now have a rank color that is truly unique to them, they're not sharing colors with the whole pack. 

I personally have no issue with Wood Badge, the program, or the participants generally. My comment was more to do with specific people who focus on Wood Badge and similar adult recognition to the point where it seems be prioritized over youth elements of the program, and how that runs counter to my own views on Scouting.  

13 minutes ago, gblotter said:

I have been passionate about Scouting for my whole life, but my motivation is driven entirely from interaction with the boys.

I know there are many Scouters out there who derive great personal satisfaction from their relationships with other Scouters. BSA seems almost like a fraternal order to them. This is going to sound terrible and I mean no offense to anyone on this forum, but I really hate hanging out with other Scouters. That is why I have always dodged things like Wood Badge. If a Scouting event is not centered on the boys, I'd rather spend my time at home remodeling my kitchen - lol.

Once again - please forgive my offense with this honest confession.

I'm in a similar boat. I was asked recently if I'd ever want to do Wood Badge and I said "No." Apparently I was a little too quick to respond, think I kind of surprised the guy asking. He was looking at me as if it was somehow odd that I wouldn't want to do Wood Badge. 

This was the same guy who asked me what my goals were for my own scouting career. I had no answer, I don't think about it like that. All I've thought about since I started is the Pack program and my Den. I don't know if that will change over the years, but right now I just don't see myself taking an interest in the Scouter stuff that is more focused on adults than kids. 

1 hour ago, Saltface said:

http://members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/1515/what-is-the-scout-policy-on-the-use-of-knives

As the most functional and convenient tool to carry, a knife is the right arm of Being Prepared. When this policy change came out, did it not cause a stir row?

Ugh... the wording of that 1st paragraph is just awful. Sentence #1: "Knives should be considered as a tool and treated as such." Sentence #3: "Knives are an offensive weapon so great care should be taken when dealing with them."

🙄

It's tricky because the stick/staff has a long history in Scouting. I have a picture of one of our scouts at the last camping trip with a walking stick, one leg propped up on a rock, leaning slightly forward, looking like an illustration straight out of an early handbook. We're also working on the Good Knights adventure in our Den right now, and there is that illustration in there comparing a scout to a knight, a key feature of that comparison being the staff (comparable to the knight's lance). I believe at one time the staff was a required part of a Scout's uniform. 

I've been on hikes where sticks weren't a problem and scouts used them properly, for the mostpart. I've been on hikes where sticks quickly turned into weapons. I've been on hikes where things started out peacefully and then an hour into the hike things went bad and we ended up leaving a pile of walking sticks on the side of the trail. 

I don't know how to keep things peaceful and non-violent or LNT-compliant ("Johnny, stop whacking that tree with your walking stick!"), but I do notice that there are times when scouts use sticks safely and I want to encourage that. 

One thing I noticed on our last Pack camping trip was that one Scout brought a nice walking stick that he had found at home and spent some time cleaning up and turning into a nice staff. Because of the time he put into it, he didn't treat it as a random stick to swing around and whack things with. I'm tempted to try this with my son, and maybe encourage any Scout who wants to use a walking stick to make a nice one and take good care of it. 

18 hours ago, Cambridgeskip said:

It's all about balance I think.

...

There's a place for everyone in this game.

 

I agree there is a place for everyone in this game. I just get concerned when the adult components start to take priority over the youth components. 

Even stuff that people do in what they believe is in the best interests of the Scouts, but it ends up being more about the adults. I've seen it in the BSA and another scouting organization. I don't think people even realize they are doing it. But when adult activities are better planned than those involving the whole unit (I've seen leaders spend more time planning their Wood Badge weekend or leader retreat than the Pack camping trip), or when your unit website or facebook page or photo gallery shows more adult activities than youth activities, something is definitely wrong in your unit priorities. I've seen a discussion forum for a scouting organization that has more topics around adult programing, Rover advancement and ceremonies, adult uniforms, etc., than about the youth program. That's just weird to me.

Scouting may be available in various ways to adults, and internationally the many scouting organizations out there have varying levels of adult opportunity and participation available. But at the core this is a youth-focused movement. Youth should always be the priority. 

So I guess I'd say that I do believe there is a place for everyone in this game, but I also think that the place of any adult in Scouting has to come from a standpoint of youth-first, and anything else as it fits in around that. 

My deal-breaker with the BSA came several years ago when they seemed to double-down on the gay scout ban. I wasn't active at the time, but my decision was made. Despite being a multi-generation Scouting family, with many Eagles (myself included), I would not participate in the BSA with my son when he reached Scouting age. Even though the ban was always there, it a different time when I was a scout. In this day and age, we're faced with different things to consider. My moral compass and my conscience wouldn't allow me to continue the BSA tradition with my kids.

I joined the BPSA-US and was in preparations to start a local group when the news hit that the BSA would reverse the policy banning gay scouts. Shortly after the other membership policy changes came. The barriers to BSA participation for me were gone, so when my son started 1st grade, we joined the local Pack. 

I realize my story is kind of the polar opposite of the original discussion here. I argued for the inclusion of girls, not against it. My point, though, is that I understand the way people come to these decisions, and that the breaking point exists for everyone. And sometimes that breaking point leaves us with no other option but to leave. It's sad, but it was bound to happen no matter what direction the BSA decided to go in with any of these membership policy discussions. Many families left the BSA behind when they maintained the gay scout and scouter bans. Many families will leave because of the inclusion of girls. 

4 hours ago, SouthScout said:

Whats your breaking point? What does it take for you to say enough, I'm out?

...If the new handbook is dual gender, that's a deal breaker. If the new uniforms no longer have "Boy Scouts of America" printed on them, that's a deal breaker...

The new Cub handbooks are dual gender, so I suspect a new Scouts BSA handbook will be similar. And judging by the test uniform designs currently being discussed, there is no text on them at all, just the eagle/trefoil logo. 

9 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

One of the older scout’s teaches woods tools safety on the first new scout camp out each year so the new Scouts can use their knife. We require all new adults attend the class as well, mostly so they see boy run in action.

I remember one new adult was a little perplexed about how the older scout instructor taught knife sharpening. The technique was different from how he learned when he was a scout. He very politely asked the instructor about it and the instructor responded by giving the adult a page number reference in the scout handbook.

You never know how some adults react to these classes, but this adult told me later that he knew his son was in the right troop simply by the way the instructor responded to his question. He said, “I’m an Eagle Scout and I thought I knew everything about scouting and camping. The instructor, on several levels, politely showed me that I still have a lot to learn.”

I didn’t watch the Scouts teach the course because I wanted the new adults to see that I trusted them even in teaching safety. But I sure was proud of him.

Barry

I'm learning this same lesson on a regular basis as a new Den Leader. It's amazing how much things change. I just got CPR certified, it's been 20 years since I last did it. I couldn't believe how much has changed even with that.

I am sure that I'm in for many more surprises along the way, finding out that the way I learned things is now quite different. 

48 minutes ago, allangr1024 said:

What would it take to bring all of these divergent pieces of the old BSA back together again?  

 

It's not possible with many of these groups. There is a better chance that groups who diverged from the BSA because of past policies that have since changed might be brought back into the fold. Like the BPSA, which gained most of their membership from people who opposed the gay scout ban. The BSA aligns more closely with them now, except for the religious part. 

Those who left for Trail Life, LDS, Troops of St. George, they won't come back unless the BSA kicks out girls and gay members. That won't happen. Any group that kicks out members based on gender or sexual orientation would be committing organizational suicide in this day and age. 

Is the red neckerchief even in the shop anymore? I'm not seeing it online. 

I do see the new red handbook, though. 

On 5/14/2018 at 11:16 AM, Gwaihir said:

Why do I have a feeling BSA isn't going to be a uniformed organization in 5 years. 

I've thought that, quite often lately. Or we might be more like other scout organizations where the uniform is more akin to formal attire, and for general purposes it isn't required or even encouraged. 

Just look at all of the stock photos in the BSA Brand Center. Few of them show scouts in uniform anymore.

It's not all bad, though. I would actually welcome a middle-ground option, less Class A uniform wear but instead encourage more Class B with a neckerchief. I really like how most other groups do that, with a good size neckerchief and a loose knot tied at the bottom, worn over a t-shirt or sweatshirt. 

His take on safe spaces is interesting. I'm not so sure that many people would equate Scouting with safe spaces. Quite the opposite. We go on hikes in the woods with wild animals and deadly bugs around. We shoot guns, bow & arrows, and slingshots. We use knives. We make fires. We play rough, yell loudly, get dirty, and promote bravery. We aim to instill confidence, leadership, character, and strength in our scouts. And we reward hard work with awards and ranks that take a long time to earn. 

I love that about us. And I think it positions us in stark contrast to the safe space movement.

But I also don't think we're in a great position to lead the charge against that movement. Maybe this isn't exactly the bravest of positions to take, but I feel like we've stuck our necks out plenty lately. Let's be brave, but not reckless. Give us a few years and maybe we can be that kind of organization that Mike suggests. 

Let's get our own house cleaned up and get this new co-ed thing up and running. Then maybe we can talk about leading that charge, and enjoy the help from our new female members in doing so, as Mike also suggested: 

Quote

The safe space movement needs to be confronted, and I’d love nothing more than to see Scouts of both genders lead the charge.

I've heard there is often a delay on these after a change of administration. I have no idea how long of a delay is normal, or how long it takes to set up the presidential signing process after a new guy takes office, but I suspect that 16 months time is probably excessive.