FireStone

I think we, as Scouters, are generally a fairly humble bunch. We don't do it for the recognition, and when things are going well we tend to just privately be happy about things going well and try to maintain the positives in our programs. When things go badly, that's when we turn to others for help, and on an Internet forum looking for help means shining a big old spotlight on the negatives. 

I think we do mention the positives, but we often don't start new threads about them. I'm pretty sure I mentioned our wildly successful recruiting effort in my Pack this year, doubling the Pack size since June. Which is great, but again, I'm not going to start a thread about it. When I look at what's on my desk at the moment and I've got that stat about Pack membership alongside an ongoing issue of bullying in the Pack, you know which item I'm more likely to bring to this forum. 

There is a lot of good going on, and it does often get overlooked here. But not because we're a negative group, we're all doing what we can to improve our units, and that means asking for help with problems far more often than it means pointing out the good things we see happening. 

5 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

That's just speculation, and I don't think it's correct.

Is it? If we already have evidence of atheists re-writing the Oath and Law to suit their beliefs, is it really so speculative to suggest that they'd push for broader changes if given a nod from the BSA that the organization is flexible on the religious requirement for membership? 

When the posted speed limit is 55 mph, people do 65. When it's 65 mph, people do 75. 

3 hours ago, dkurtenbach said:

As I said, I'm talking about admission of atheists to the existing program.  What they choose to do in the program once they are in the door is up to them -- but at least we would be giving them the chance to learn and follow the Scout Oath and all 12 points of the Scout Law.  

I'm not talking about changing the program, the words of the Oath, or the words of the Law, or doing anything else to accommodate atheists or any other interest group.  Just opening the door and inviting them to join us -- on our terms.  You know, like Jesus did.  

The problem is that when you open the door, even with the stated goal of not changing anything or making accommodations, people make their own changes and accommodations and then call it their right to do so. People did it throughout the "girls in the BSA" debate, going rogue and putting girls in uniform. And although I fully support the new program for girls, I was always opposed to changing things without it being made part of the program officially. I'm not a fan of forcing change by going rogue. I advocated for change by talking about the issue, voicing my support for girls in the BSA, etc.

I have to listen to an atheist DL in my pack make a point of omitting "God" in the oath. He can't just silently pause at the God part, he (I think very deliberately) skips right over saying "God" so that he's saying "my country" when everyone else is saying "God". So we all clearly hear him and the very noticeable skip in cadence.

I wish we could just open the doors and welcome everyone, but not everyone will just go with the program. Everyone wants accommodations. We have another DL (not the guy mentioned above, actually) who opposes prayer at scouting activities. We often close campfires and other activities with a non-sectarian prayer. This DL argues that we should stop doing that, that it offends people. (Yeah, I know, I can't roll my eyes up into my head far enough either). The other 9 DLs in the Pack want the prayer to remain in the program. But again, 1 person wants accommodations made for the group because of how they personally feel.

This is what I see right now, while the rule is still firmly in favor of Duty to God being very much a part of Scouting. If the BSA took an official stance that atheists would be welcome, it wouldn't be with them just signing up and not participating in the faith-based components of the program. They'd want things changed for them. They would use any shift in stance by the BSA as leverage to argue for further change. Open that door a crack and it will be flung wide open in no time and God will be out of the BSA.

I hate these planes, I really do. Too many people flying them who won't make the necessary sacrifice and endanger the public by putting them down in crowded areas. Not necessarily the case in this story, I'm just making a probably unfair generalization. 

A few years back a pilot crashed a similar plane on the property of my daughter's school. He was trying to make it back to the airport and wasn't going to make it, and rather than veering away from the school, he flew over it and crashed 200 feet away from the building. 

Had he gone left he would have had a shot at a corporate parking lot. But it was further and supposedly he knew he wouldn't make it. Go right, and he had a golf course nearby, but again, probably too far to make it. He kept it pointed towards the airport thinking that was his best chance to survive, maybe aiming for the field behind the school if he came up short, and he nearly took out the school in the process. 

I had this opinion of these planes and their pilots before, but that incident didn't help brighten my opinion any. Makes me cringe any time I see photos like that now. 

A couple years before that, a pilot made a landing on a local highway. He took out an SUV and killed a family of 4. It's all laughs and fun when it works out, like in this story about the scouts on the beach. But it often doesn't work out so well for those on the ground. Thank God no one was injured this time. 

I suspect this issue won't get the same support for change as other recent ones. It certainly won't from me, and I supported the changes to allow gay scouts, transgender scouts, and girls. I know there are many in my Pack who feel the same, having supported the previous changes but not willing to budge on the faith component. 

Personally I don't see the issues as the same. I believe people can choose faith, but not gender or sexual orientation. And I include transgenderism in that, I don't think it's a choice, and sometimes what's between the ears and what's between the legs aren't aligned in the traditional sense. So I wouldn't kick a kid out for something that they can't choose to be differently. 

I also don't think the BSA religious requirements are all that much of a burden. Just believe in something bigger than yourself. That's it. Specifics don't really matter, to fulfill the requirement just believe in something. 

There is something deeply spiritual about Scouting, even without explicitly saying it. I had spiritual moments as a Boy Scout that were not part of any effort to be reverent. I remember being out at Resica Falls, sitting out in the woods alone quietly observing my surroundings (something to do with Envi Sci, not sure if that requirement is still in there), and there was a very real sense of something spiritual in that. I had found a comfortable boulder to perch on, lay back and stare up into the trees, listening to the sounds around me. It wasn't just nature. Maybe it was the combination of being in a Scouting environment, being a recent OA inductee, and being someone who believes in God, it all combined into something that felt like a lot more than just observing nature in the scientific sense. And it was an experience that obviously made a lasting impact on me. 

It was something that I think would be very different in a setting that stripped out any sense of spirituality. Not to say it couldn't happen, but I'm glad it happened the way that it did, and I'm glad that we still strive to keep spirituality in the mix. We're not just a camping club, and this is something that ensures we remain more than just a camping club. 

What were they "yelling and screaming" at you about? If it was because you said that The Princess Bride is a bad movie, then they were entirely justified in yelling at you. That film is a cinematic treasure. 

However if it was something to do with Cub Scouts, as I suspect it likely was, then they maybe should have had more tact in dealing with whatever issue they had with you. It would be helpful to know what they were so upset about, certainly as it relates to determining whether or not they are suited to continued leadership in your Pack.

10 hours ago, JoeBob said:

... I've never whined about being treated unfairly; or chastised the moderators for allowing viewpoints differing from my own.  My beliefs are strong enough to withstand scrutiny, disagreement and criticism...

... grow a sense of humor; you're going to need it.

I'm good with differing viewpoints. But that's not what you're offering. You're mocking people of a specific political persuasion that you clearly dislike, plain and simple. What, the comment about the clinking wine coolers was supposed to be constructive commentary? Should I take that as a compliment?

I read it for exactly what you intended. You were mocking liberals and some imagined celebratory response to negative news about the BSA. It's mockery wrapped in a stereotype, but you just call it "humor" and a differing viewpoint.

I have a sense of humor. What I don't have is any more patience for the stereotypes and mockery I get for being a liberal. I sort of expect it where I live, in a town that has historically been largely Republican. Earlier this week in a conversation with a local resident I was told that liberals hate the military. He didn't know my political views, and did the, "well, not you, I know you don't hate the military," back-peddling when he found out. I expect it to some degree in my town, although I wish things were different. I guess I had higher expectations for fellow Scouters. Clearly, I'm wrong about that.

16 hours ago, JoeBob said:

See Liberals!  There is a Santa Claus!

Can't you just hear the wine-coolers clinking together?

There are a lot of people who are politically left/liberal on this very forum and none of us want to see the BSA in bankruptcy or any other bad financial situation.

You unfairly characterize this news as part of some liberal agenda or plot by liberals to destroy the BSA. In doing so you insult every liberal BSA member, volunteer, and family. For some reason the moderators tolerate it. I have no idea why.

Resica Falls, PA

Camp Turrell, NY

1 hour ago, walk in the woods said:

We don't know that the school didn't have that in the agreement.

We don't, but I would think that if such a clause was in the agreement that the school would have gone straight to that when speaking to the press about this. No reason they wouldn't mention that if they could.

26 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

Well, in fairness to the school, the sports teams are part of the school's extra-curricular activities.  Unless the school is also the CO wouldn't they have a loyalty to their own programs first? 

Sure, but then they shouldn't open up their facilities for other organizations to use, or if they do they should make it known that they reserve the right to change/cancel any facilities reservations at any time.

7 minutes ago, Summitdog said:

Did someone at the troop level drop the ball by not communicating with the school after the offer for other options??  It appears the school realizes the inconvenience but is trying to make accommodations.

I might be assuming a lot here, but my guess would be that other accommodations might not meet the needs/expectations of the event organizers. If they originally had the gym, what suitable similarly-sized room would be available at the school? If they are being asked to use smaller rooms, split the event up into smaller venues, etc., that might not even be a viable option for this event, depending on how big it really is.

54 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

For me and mine, I think this is more a membership question and  a question of the health of the troop.  Will he bring this into the troop?  Will he expose this other kids?  Will other kids avoid the troop?  Will other parents view the troop as a risk for their kids?  

I'm just about as liberal as they come on issues of marijuana, being a proponent of legalization. Full-disclosure, as part of my job I work with companies who legally make and/or distribute cannabis products or promote cannabis events.

That said, I'm actually kind of torn on this one. I support legalization but with emphasis on the "legal" part of it, not just for the companies that make/sell it but for those who consume it legally. Even in places where it's legal, it's an adult product, so no scout-age kids should be getting their hands on it.

Questions like Fred's come to mind... would this scout bring weed to a scouting event? He got caught with it at school, so I have to seriously wonder.

Teddy, are you intending to permanently deny the SMC? Or is this just to buy some time to think about it?

2 hours ago, Tired_Eagle_Feathers said:

It was never a big part of scouting when I was in scouts.  About the only time we really encountered it was when we went to a regional event with other troops.

I suspect your pack/troop was not the norm then. In every unit I've encountered, from my youth until now, it's always been an important part of things. And the training I see locally here suggests a renewed interest in emphasizing the faith component of the program. We've heard as much from council reps, and we did a pack prayer at the end of a recent pack meeting based on the suggestion by one of our Wood Badge leaders who was encouraged to make Duty to God a prominent part of our program. We did the same at the campfire last month on our fall overnighter.

I remember similar things from my youth. Campfire prayers, singing vespers, going to faith services at camp, working on religious awards, etc.

Quote

Diana Gulotta, director of communications services for Prince William County Public Schools, told Potomac Local that Freedom High School did not cancel the Star Wars event, and in fact, was still open to hosting the event.

“The Freedom High School football team is competing in the state semi-final on Saturday, and some of the preparation for that requires use of the gym,” Gulotta said. “Freedom High School did not cancel the Star Wars event. In fact, we have reached out multiple times to the event coordinator to work on a compromise that would allow the event to be held in alternate locations in the building.

"We didn't cancel the event, we just made it impossible for it to happen." 🙄

That's awful. The football team doesn't need to actually play a game in the gym, they need it just for game prep, probably to stage equipment. That really can't be done elsewhere?

They're kicking out the scouts (who followed proper protocol to reserve the gym) just so the football team has somewhere to put the Gatorade cooler before the game. I'm not sure there is a more clear and blatant insult to scouting organizations and how the town/community/school views them as so significantly less worthy of support than the sports teams.

On 11/27/2018 at 12:18 PM, Tired_Eagle_Feathers said:

...I think Scouting as a whole is a great organization when it hearkens to its roots in scoutcraft and leadership.  There are many aspects I'd like it to dump, like religion and goofiness.  These things were not a part of my Scouting experience growing up.  It's probably a pack/troop specific thing.  But there are enough positive aspects of Scouting, like scoutcraft and leadership, that make me want my son to continue to enjoy doing those things under the auspices of Scouting while ignoring the parts we don't want to do...

...Our last pack campout my son and I basically had our own little campout at the pack campout.  We had our own campfire.  We opted out of the pack meal and cooked steaks as part of doing our Cast Iron Chef work.  Instead of going to the pack campfire we sat around our own fire and roasted marshmallows and ate s'mores.  While the rest of the kids were running around playing we worked on lashings... 

Religion was actually a key component of Baden-Powell's founding ideals, calling it a "fundamental factor underlying Scouting." So if we're talking "roots", religion is right there.

I kind of struggle with your approach, separating from the Pack and doing your own thing. A lot of aspects of the aims and goals of scouting are group-focused, working together as a unit, sharing knowledge and ideas, and teaching other scouts how to do things. If your son is not participating in some activities, he may be missing out on some good learning experiences. The goofy stuff isn't always just about being goofy, it's connected to developing communication skills and older scouts working with younger scouts to pass on skills and confidence, and also learning to become leaders themselves.

Have you looked into the troop your son may be joining? A lot of troops still do some of the same stuff, have similar campfire programs as the pack, etc. I just wonder if you're waiting it out just to get to a troop and find that some of these common elements of scouting are still there.

29 minutes ago, CodyMiller351 said:

Overall his flaws are: use of inappropriate language, not knowing his place, thinking he knows everything, thinking everything has to be his way, going against what we planned. He also disagrees with our plans for the troop (remodeling our scout hut, recruiting, etc.).  It's sad because his son is the same way.  Sorry for the long post and I know I am making my troop seem like a horrible place but we've had a rough past two years and I am trying to get us back on the right track.   

Sounds like the typical guy who knows everything about everything and can tell everyone what they're doing wrong. That's fine. I'd invite him to sign up to take on those roles that he feels the troop is deficient in. If he thinks he can better plan outings, maybe there's an opening on the committee for Outdoor Activity Chair. If he's a recruiting expert, he can be the next Recruitment Chair.

More volunteers are always needed in Scouting. Sounds like he's highly motivated to take on many new roles. 😉

This is Scouting, and part of it is the silly skits, songs, cheers, and sometimes slapstick humor. Like everything else, it has a purpose, which as I understand it is about developing better communication skills, confidence speaking in front of a group, and developing an event (campfire) program.

At the Cub level, I can tell that our campfires are one of the highlights of any outing. Families look forward to them. Without the skits, songs, etc., it would just be a bunch of people sitting around a campfire quickly getting bored. And although I absolutely enjoy a quiet campfire, 6-to-10-year-olds don't.

Frankly I'm not a fan of a kid sitting it out when it comes time for the campfire program. Maybe singing a song in front of a group isn't for everyone (it's not even for me but I do it anyway because the kids have fun with it), but there are other ways to be involved. Tell a joke or a story. But doing nothing isn't acceptable. Participation is part of some of the Cub adventures, it's required. We're not just a camping club, Scouting has a lot of unique facets to it and this is one of them. Take it or leave it.

Sorry for the harsh stance, I'm just in the middle of some somewhat related issues locally and maybe this touched a nerve. There have been various issues within my Pack with parents and even some leaders not liking one thing about Scouting or another and wanting to opt out of that thing.

This is the program. Skits. Songs. Campfire programs. Uniforms. Religion. Girls. Whatever issue you have with the program, you can either accept what it is today or move on. If you don't like something about the program, try to change it. But until things change, until National says no more goofy skits or tells one of my parents that they can entirely skip Duty to God or tells one of my DLs they can wear the uniform however they want (or not at all), we work with what we've got and what the standards of the day are. This is Scouting. All of it.

Anyone know more about this Firecrafter program? It looks like it's part of a BSA Council, but is if "official" BSA? 

On 11/23/2018 at 12:33 PM, ianwilkins said:

Small point of order, I'm not sure where or why the friendship knot started or gained traction, whether it was in the UK or what, but there are still plenty that are more than happy with woggles (slides you say? How odd.  ) over this side of the pond*. Though it does seem to have either come down from above, not sure when it started, but a desire to be seen as more "action" and less "stuffy"...

Makes sense if that was indeed the intent. Bear Grylls is certainly wearing it well in a more "action" style, and selling that image of modern scouting. 

There's not much "action" in the US style, especially at the Cub level where those little neckerchiefs are too small to stay around their necks if they do any running/climbing/playing, etc. The running joke in my Wolf den is whether we can make it through the meeting opening without the familiar sound of a metal neckerchief slide hitting the ground. 😅

The neckers that can be worn with a friendship knot are usually the larger variety that seem to be able to stay in place better. 

18 hours ago, Eagledad said:

The Eagle represents integrity, and as far as I can find, the BSA doesn't list actions of integrity beyond the broad definitions of the Law and Oath.  Are you suggesting that should mean anything goes?

No.

I said it in the other thread about this and I'll say it again here: If pre-marital sex is a disqualifier for Eagle Scout, let me know where to hand in my medal.

Would it be fair to deny one scout their rank because he got his girlfriend pregnant while approving another scout (like me) who just got lucky that his girlfriend didn't get pregnant despite that scout being incredibly stupid and not being careful?

I applaud that scout who maybe became a father way too young but did the right thing and stood by his new family anyway.

6 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

From the Crossover script: The performers dress in field uniform—the summer version with shorts and knee socks is preferred as being more distinctive, but is not required. They wear hiking shoes or boots. Each carries a knapsack or backpack that appears to be full. One carries a compass; one carries a map. Additionally, they may have such things as wooden hiking sticks and/or a patrol flag, a wooden canoe paddle, flashlights, canteens, a bugle, a sleeping bag rolled and strapped to a pack—backpacking and camping items that suggest outdoor adventure. If the ceremony is conducted by an Order of the Arrow lodge or chapter team, it is at the discretion of the lodge chief if the team should wear sashes for the ceremony. At no time should any member of the team wear American Indian costumes.

This doesn't make a lot of sense, considering the intent of the crossover ceremony and the impact that the presence that OA members (in costume) have at that event. Let's face it, it's a very visual display and because it's not something Cub Scouts are used to seeing, it really hits them. If this ceremony becomes just a scout in uniform, all of the mystique and intrigue of the ceremony is lost on the Cubs. 

This should have been replaced with something else, not reduced all the way down to a familiar image of a scout in uniform with a pack full of gear. There's just nothing unique in that, not in a room full of scouts and scouters. Everyone wears that uniform, or some variation of it. What's the draw now? What makes that same impact the previous ceremonies had? 

I don't claim to know what the answer is, but I'm disappointed that so little effort seems to have been put forth to find a suitable alternative for costumes and regalia used in ceremonies teams. Was any effort made to find some new symbolism for OA that maintained the secret-society-mystique without stepping into cultural appropriation territory? 

13 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

While I wish we could do this at regular BORs, I understand why it's not allowed.  That said, I've been pleasantly surprised at the Eagle candidates I've worked with. Most have been pretty proficient at their knots, even the ones I thought didn't know them well.  

I think the intent of re-testing is all fine and good, but it's just not consistent with the current BSA advancement model. We're not a proficiency program anymore, although as I understand it we were, once. But that was also back before there were so many merit badges, and the idea of proficiency testing was more feasible.