Buffalo Skipper

SR540Beaver, thank you for the post. I used that as my Scoutmaster Minute last night. It acutally got a round of applause from some of our scouts.

Life is Good!

Doing my part to spread the gospel of hammocking. Best night's sleep I have ever had. Discovering the hammock started my quest to lighten my backpack weight (or did my quest start with the hammock? Hum, not sure which came first, like the chicken and the egg...). Regardless, what was a 15 lbs of backpack, sleeping bag and pads and tent, is now down to just over 6 lbs, and I sleep soooo much better. Long live the trees!

The original poster asked about pads. My son and I have been researching this for him. He has decided to go with the Therm-a-Rest NeoAir XLite (small). It is 2.5" thick, insulated and weighs in at 8 oz. This is for Philmont (which does not allow hammocks--blasphemers!), and it looks like it will work out very well for him. The small only goes down to just below his knees, so he adds a cut section of WalMart blue foam pad for his feet. Outside of the tent, this 16" square pad makes a great insulated seat on a rock, log or ground. Add 1.8 oz for the foam pad.

First I need to clarify that (in part, due to the following experience) I no longer sleep in a tent. For the last 19 months, I have spent nearly 60 nights hanging in a hammock, with not a single night on the ground. The worst night I have had in my hammock was better than the best sleep I ever experienced on the ground.

With that said, I have only had two miserable nights in a tent. One was at Woodbadge and was health related (incredible heartburn caused by "walking tacos"). But my singular worst tent camping experience was while backpacking at FDR State Park in GA, on the Pine Mountain Trail; and it is quite a tale. 

We are a (north) Florida troop, and the weather forecast was for snow! Not a lot of snow, but more than a dusting. We arrived at the base camp in advance of the front late on Friday night, just before midnight and set up. Older scouts slept in the open shelter, while the younger scouts and adults pitched tents. When we bedded down, the temperature was right around 38, and as the morning progressed, the weather conditions followed the forecast almost to the minute. At 2:30 am, it began to rain; at 9 am when everyone started to get up and prepare breakfast, it was 33 and the rain began to mix with ice, and soon snow. By 9:45 it had changed completely to snow as the temperature continued to slowly fall. Once the rain was gone (and it was fully snowing), we took down the tents and packed up to be ferried to the trailhead. We walked the trail for 2.5 hours as the snow continued to fall, with a total accumulation of 2-3. For us Florida boys, it was exciting.

The section of trail where we were traversing is called Wet Bottom and there were several small stream crossings where we had to step across rocks for 8-12. The exposed rocks were covered with snow and were slippery, and several times I ended up with my (non-waterproof) boots in a few inches of water. But that was all right. I had spare socks and as long as I kept moving my feet were warm. By 1:30 pm, the snow stopped, and we continued to our designated campsite, as the temperatures continued to drop. We reached camp by about 4pm and quickly set up; as it was the middle of January, dusk was only about 90 minutes away. The temperature was somewhere around 23, which was the forecast low for the night. I changed into dry and put on my camp shoes (Crocs). The wet snow that had fallen that day had turned to a very crunchy ice with the temperature, and as I walked around camp, it fell into my Crocs and melted, making my feet (and my socks) quite wet.

The group worked to make dinner, but our water never really came to a rolling boil (we were using propane and iso-butane stoves). Eventually it became warm enough to cook our rice/pasta, but it never completely cooked through, in spite of that, it was good to get some warm food in our bellies, and everyone went to bed quite early. I had one last pair of dry socks, which I put on as I climbed into my sleeping bag. I had a 1 self inflating pad and a 25 down bag; everything except my boots and 2 pair fo good hiking socks was dry, but I could never seem to get my feet (or the rest of me) to warm up. I spent the night in and out of sleep, needing to get up twice during the night, and I never could stop shivering; my feet were tingling painfully from the cold, keeping me awake much of the time.

In the morning, we simply could not make the water boil for breakfast. One or two of the others had 0 bags and had done all right through the night, but the rest of us were miserable. It was a 3 day trek, and without access to any vehicles, we decided to break camp and move quickly to the next campsite. I struggled to put on my (driest) wet socks and frozen shoes. My feet were still painfully cold, but in the first 1/10 mile, the effort of hiking began to warm them up. We ended up unexpectedly meeting with the other group from the troop which was getting off the trail due to the SM having blown out his knee and being unable to continue. We ran into one of the park rangers who confirmed that the overnight temperatures in town had been in the sub teens, and he estimated temps on the mountain to be well into the single digits, around 7 or 8F.

I will never forget that sleepless, shivering, painful night. Frankly, due to my wet feet, I believe I may have had a touch of hypothermia. No one really suffered any long term injuries (aside from the SM, who sadly has not gone on any long distance hikes since). Our troop was unprepared for these conditions, which were 15 colder than forecast. That may not seem like much, but it was the breaking point where our gear was no longer practical. I and others in the troop have learned a significant amount about cold weather camping, and we have even purchased 2 white gas stoves for just such conditions.

FWIW, the troop went back 3 years later (15 months ago), and the first night we had temps around 20. We were better prepared, and in my hammock and down quilts, I was toasty warm!

There is a training award for Roundtable staff. Details here:

http://usscouts.org/awards/scoutertraining5.asp

The Arrowhead Honor is ONLY worn as a commissioner, on a commissioner's uniform. I was on Roundtable Staff, and earned the Roundtable Training Award. I later "moved up" to CS RTC, where I completed the Arrowhead Honor; then I transitioned to Venturing Forum Commissioner, and I completed the Commissioner's Key. As a Scoutmaster, I am no longer a part of the commissioner or roundtable staff; I still have the training knot and keys on most of my uniforms, but I removed the Arrowhead Honor when I stepped down as a commissioner.

Any guess what network Comcast channel 30 is?

A couple of points on my approach to Scoutmaster Conferenc (SMC).

The SMC is not a retest of skills (as stated my many here).

The SMC is not a prep for the Board of Review.

The SMC is not a lecture by the SM. I try to use it bring out the scout and have them do nearly all of the talking. This is more difficult with younger, shy scouts, but that is the point.

The SMC is about finding out more about your scout. Sure we (should) all know our scouts pretty well, but this can be an opportunity to go into a depth not normally covered in day-to-day conversations or on campouts. If you do have the opportunity to know your scouts better outside of a SMC, then it becomes an opportunity to follow up on what you know, meaning you can ask more specific personal questions of your scout. Either is fine.

I pretty much know where my scouts stand on skill levels. I pay attention at meetings and on campouts. I debrief with the SPL regularly and with PLs less frequently on how each of the scouts are doing. So by the time of the SMC, I know where a scout stands, and where they are weak. Because of this, I like to focus much of the SMC on Scout Spirit.

We have a growing troop. I like to conduct SMCs for Tenderfoot, First Class (sometimes Star)and Eagle, while I will frequently defer the others to different ASMs. I make sure I mention certain concerns or issues with the ASM before and after the SMC.

For Star, I (along with the ASMs) discuss goal setting. In fact, at the conclusion of the Star SMC, I ask the scout to come up with 3 specific goals in his scouting and personal life he can work on before life. A week after the SMC, I follow up with the scout and write down his goals. I this on to whomever does the Life SMC, where they are brought up and progress "checked." I use the goal setting as perparing a scout to work toward Eagle.

BSA has a document which lists some appropriate things to discuss at SMCs. I sometimes review this before the SMC, but I do not view it as a checklist to cover at the SMC.

Hope that adds some perspective for the whole.

We do 12 weekend campouts per year. Summer camp is tacked on to the end of a weekend campout. Holiday weekends, we will often take the extra day. One summer weekend campout is usually 4 or 5 nights. That comes out to roughly 33-35 nights of tent camping a year. Most years we also do 1 or occasionally 2 lock-ins. The PLC will do a weekend of cabin camping for our leadership training. A scout who participted in everything would have 35 nights of tenting, plus up to 4 nights of cabin camping. Active OA members will add 8 more nights a year. Philmont crews would add 12 more.

In January 2010, after recharter, our troop was down to 11 scouts (minus 2 who inactive Eagles who were about to age out). By February 2010, after crossover, we were up to about 16 scouts (50% growth). The following year, again after crossover, were were up to about 25 scouts (50% growth). We have just received all our Webelos, some of which have brought along some friends, and we now stand at 39 scouts, the third concecutive year of 50% growth. Looking ahead to next years pospects, it is not inconceivable that we my approach that percentage again next year! These figures include scouts who have dropped out (4) and/or transfered to other troops (3).

We have had no scouts age out during the past 2 years, and there is only one prospect to age out this October and only one more a year from April.

As you may imagine, this kind of growth has had an incredible impact on our program. Luckily we have picked up over the past few years some excellent leaders who have some experience with larger troops. And though there have been growing pains, it has thus far taken place with suprisingly few bumps.

I wanted to state that at this weekend's campout, the aforementioned leader showed up in uniform pants. We spoke briefly and succinctly and this is now a non-issue.

Thank you for all your advice, even the stuff I didn't want to hear.

For what it is worth, a few gentle pushes the past 3 weeks or so seem to have things working the way they should be, in matters beyond just the uniforming. I am glad to have this behind us. We are bringing 12 new Webelos onboard (40% increase in troop size) and it is good that so many things are falling into place for us.

Again, thanks.

The packs I work with cross over at the Blue and Gold. Ceremonies at the B&G start with Tigers and progress through Webelos and the Arrow of Light presentations. Following the AoL, there is a (tear jerker of a) slideshow with pictures of the Webelos den from Tigers up. Following this the OA does their ceremony for crossover with the Troops ready to receive on the other side (the parents follow the scouts as they cross). It is a moving ceremony and is the true climax of the Blue and Gold, leaving the remaining Webelos den(s) chomping at the bit to join a troop.

Yet other local packs have their own ceremonies and traditions. I know one which has their Blue and Gold in February (with AoL presentations), but the scouts do not cross until the following month when, at a pack campout, the crossover takes place during the campfire. It is expected that, the receiving troop(s) camp with the pack and following the crossover, the new scouts actually camp with the troop, while the parents remain camped with the pack. This can sometimes be logistically challenging for the troops, especially if the troop does not usually receive scouts from the pack. There have been occasions when receiving troops were not invited to attend, and the webelos "crossed" to a different troop, but then "joined" a different unit.

Each unit is going to have their own traditions. Working together with the receiving Boy Scout troops is paramount to making this a memorable experience for the scouts and those they leave behind in the pack.

I have not yet made one of these, but I am intersted in hearing the replies. I have seen a few designs, but haven't settled on what size/type cans.

I have looked at wood-gas stoves for some time. I have been very interested in using them, and working with scouts to make them. Great project!

FWIW, when I was in scouts, we did all our cooking over a wood fire. No stoves, no charcoal. Every campout. Rain or shine. Car camping or backpack. That's just the way it was.

At summer camp last year, I went to evening flags without my neckerchief, arriving a few steps behind the rest of the troop. One of our patrol leaders called me out in front of the troop on where my neckerchief was. I replied (loud enough for everyone to hear) that I had loaned my neckerchief to Frank (the most senior scout on the campout) because he had lost his in his tent, and didn't want him to be late to flags. A quiet "Oh," was all that was heard in reply. After dinner, Frank (who I have know since he was a Webelos) returned the neckerchief to me (with his in his other hand), and thanked me.

I never had to remind a scout to put on their neckerchief the rest of the week.

"First of all I do believe that alcohol has a lower BTU rating than that of white gas at about 50% which means one has to carry twice the alcohol to produce the same amount of heat as white gas. Maybe someone out there can confirm or refute that statement."

---That's roughly correct! (close enough for the sake of the discussion)

It is also why alcohol is MORE efficient per weight up to about 4 day's worth. Because a simple alcohol stove (like a Pepsi can or Cat can) weighs only 1 oz. A typical white gas stove weights about 14 oz. So until you are going on a trip long enough to require more than roughly 13 oz of alcohol, an alcohol stove and fuel weighs less than a white gas stove and fuel (not counting the weight of the fuel storage containers). Alcohol can be stored in a clearly marked soda bottle (1 oz) whereas white gas should be stored in a metal container weighing more like 4-5 oz.

The weight benefit threshold will depend upon how much fuel you use. For an example, if you only have 1 cooked meal a day, you will use less fuel, and the alcohol stove becomes more weight-efficient over a greater period of time.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

Frankly, I have worked hard to return the idea of a uniform culture to the troop. He is a retired Marine officer, and I am concerned that his defiance undermines the leadership far beyond his appearance in blue jeans and a scout shirt. He has two sons in the troop one older and one younger.

As for whether or not he can afford the pants himself? I belive he can. With either personal funds or via work associates, he has secured significant funds for summer camp and for uniforms (in an amount approaching $1000 over the past 18 months...) for those who really cannot afford it.

As a 20 year military officer, I find it hard to swallow that he would be so willing to take such a defiant stance. I truly feel it sets a bad example.

We have one ASM in the troop who refuses to buy/wear uniform pants. He is the only leader in the troop who is doing this. I have spoken to him several times, and he generally says he can't afford or doesn't have the time to buy them. The Committee Chair and I had a "Leaders" meeting (not committee or parents, just all the registered leaders to discuss issues. He handed out a "flyer" requesting that all ASMs wear a complete uniform as an example for the scouts. Of course, our wayward ASM showed up at the end of the meeting, read the flyer and threw it away.

Any ideas on how to get him on board?

Thanks for that clarification. I was too lazy to actually look up the reference and was just going by what was posted.

Regardless of whether or not they are parents of another scout, what you quoted still states it must be conducted by "3-6 committee members...." This clearly states that in order to participate, one must be registered as a committee member: not an ASM or unregistered parent.

Upon the completion of the Board of Review, I give the scout a sheet of paper indicating their completed SMC. It has the name and phone number of the Advancement Coordinator, whom the scout is now responsible to contact (she is usually at the meeting, so only rarely is a phone call necessary). The Advancement Coordinator sets up the BoR for the scout.

The BoR usually takes place at the next meeting. The Advancement Coordinator contacts committee members, and invites them to the BoR. Most frequently the adults are the Advancement Coordinator, Treasurer, Webelos Coordinator, Outdoor Activites Coordinator and/or Committee Chair. Others are contacted if necessary. If the scout's SM conference was before the meeting, it is not uncommon for the Advancement Coordinator to arrange the BoR on the spot the same evening. Our Treasurer and Outdoor Coordinator attend most campouts, so if another committee member is present, sometimes a BoR may take place at a campout if the SM conference was conduced while out in the field.

Last summer, our Chaplain (committee member) was also at summer camp, so we had 4 Tenderfoot BoRs at summer camp. Immediate recognition was given to the scouts at flags the following morning. Two sewed on their patches before dinner that evening. Good summer camp.

Engineer61, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

Having seen how effectively it works as a postive motivator, I don't think I could ever be convinced that immediately recognizing scouts for their accomplishments is an "entitlement." Besides, Advancement is one of the 8 Methods of Boy Scouting; video games is not one of the remaining seven.

Whether or we agree with policy changes or not, it is natural to assume that they occur as a response to an incident or incidents. So with the above listed incident, it is not a stretch to connect the two, which makes a policy change understandable, even if a bit misguided.

It has been harder for me to swallow the "Patrol Campout" pill because I have seen no information relating actual "patrol without leader" incidents. I try to follow scout stories (even the tragedies I hate to see smeared in the media), but I have yet to see a headline reading: "Scouts Camping without adult supervision cause 10,000 acre wildfire and die while canoeing away on flood swollen river!" Seems hard to imagine the media not grabbing an unsupervised incident and pasting it across the top of every paper in the country.

But I don't mean to digress.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

It was discussed here at length. Here is the thread:

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=232385

Remember the context, this was not a cooking or stove incident. It was a lapse of judgement and a tragic accident. As I said, it may only be coincidence that I noticed the change in policy on alcohol fuel/stove use after this incident.

Engineer61, I take that as "apology accepted." Thanks for your understanding.

"Entitlement" is a fairly new word, as words go, allegedly first used in 1942. For the sake of our discussion, I believe what we are saying is that "entitlement" is the expectation that everyone is treated equally, regardless of actual accomplishment or effort. One example I see of this is at some Pinewood Derbies where every cub scout receives an award or trophy, whether for mere participation or for some concocted award like "Fastest Looking Car."

If that is "entitlement," then "instant recognition" is pretty much the opposite. It immediately recognizes a scout for what he has accomplished. Waiting until the next Court of Honor may be a way of "entitlement" so that little Johnny, who hasnt completed his Second Class is not embarrassed by not finishing yet, so well give him a few months to finish so they can all be awarded at the same time. That to me is a "parental entitlement" mentality.

Eagledad hit it on the head. The night Frankie completes his First Class board of review, I give a little speech about how important the "First Class" rank really is. As I have Frankie up front giving him his patch, I tell the whole troop how it shows that as a First Class, he has demonstrated competency in all basic scout skills and so on. It is a big moment for the scout in front of his peers. Proudly the scout is wearing his First Class patch by the next meeting. On the other hand, if Johnny is embarrassed that his best friend Frankie is a First Class while he is still a Tenderfoot, it will motovate him to finish up before the next Court of Honor, or at least at a faster pace.

Seeing the genuine excitement on a young (or older) scout's face when he receives his rank badge in front of the troop is a tremendous reward for we adults, and reinforces that we are doing the right thing. The troop is always eager to congratulate the scout with louder prehaps a little more reckless applause than will be heard at the Court of Honor in a few months. But that is OK.

Engineer61 and all,

It was suggested to me privately that I may have used stronger than necessary language when I made my "sham on you" remark. Though I have very passionate opinions on certain Scouting topics, I should have found a better choice of words, which were unscoutlike, and inappropriate.

I do sincerely apologize if my words or tone offended you or anyone on the forum.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

A few years ago, there was an incident involving the misuse of alcohol by a scout. It resulted in another scout's death. It was the following G2SS which prohibited DIY alcohol stoves and discouraged alcohol fuel. I always felt this was a liability issue with the use of stove fuels, as alcohol is particularly flammable as it readily vaporizes at most any temperature. Also keep in mind that penny stoves can on rare occasions "burp" with a backpressure. This is rare, but regardless, the "penny" is extremely hot, and therefore a hazard. Also, DIY (reservoir) stoves cannot be "turned off." Also there is a splashing risk, if the stove is tipped or accidently knocked over.

Whether or not these are connected, I have always assumed that it was an issue of liability, regardless of whether the hazard was genuine or imagined.

I use a DIY alcohol stove when I backpack outside of scouts, but when on troop outings, I respect and follow the G2SS, regardless of whether or not I agree with it.

Alcohol is more efficient (per weight carried) in fuel quantities equalling or less than 3-4 day's supply. Beyond that the canister fuels become more efficient. Of course that does not take into account the weight of the stove, which can vary considerably. I think a training program on liquid fuels (like SSD, Climb on Safely, etc.) would be more effective way to dealing with the hazards of fuel handling and usage.

Just my 2.