Eagle1993

The way I read this, the TCC is showing how camps can be sold off while remaining camps can still provide coverage for all scouts. So even if BSA can win the argument that camps are necessary, the other argument is that there is excess capacity of camps, so many can be sold off.

I agree that BSA's model is not much better or worse than other youth organizations at this time. However, times have changed and I expect many youth serving organizations are going to have to evaluate their policies. Why? Insurance coverage. Insurance companies will see the billions of dollars from the BSA lawsuit and increase their rigor when insuring youth organizations. One example form below. This is from an insurance company to buy sex abuse insurance for your organization. You can see in their questionnaire, they ask for details on how you vet volunteers. BSA does not do (picture IDs, personal interviews, personal references checked (we list them, how often checked), 5 years of employment history checked). In fact, for volunteers, we only tick off 1 of the boxes listed. Then look at background checks ... I don't think any one of us has been fingerprinted. https://www.greatamericaninsurancegroup.com/docs/default-source/specialty-human-services/abuse.pdf?sfvrsn=b79271b1_4 So, I expect the BSA bankruptcy to have a major impact on all youth organizations. Organizations will have a choice going forward. Drop their youth programming (see NMRA (https://www.nmra.org/nmra-risk-persons-policy). Greatly increase their rigor on adding employees & volunteers, likely enforced through insurance company contracts Go without insurance (typically no assets, small groups) BSA's current model of having a CO sign off on volunteers is likely going to be questioned by their insurance companies going forward (and COs as well). Someone will need to vet, interview, call references, etc.

I think this case shows the issue is complex and dynamic. Ideally, all COs & LCs can work through this bankruptcy and eliminate future risk. Otherwise, we are likely looking at a decade+ of Council by Council, CO by CO going through this mess. Note that in Illinois, today, there is no SOL for civil sex abuse cases. However, they also do not have a revival window (you can't go back to 1960 and use today's laws). Illinois did pass a window, but their Supreme Court found it unconstitutional. In this case ... if it proceeds ...it would go to the jury to decide. All of this is specific to Illinois and based on Illinois law. I think it just points out another variable where LCs and COs should not get too comfortable avoiding involvement in this bankruptcy. I would like my council to discharge their risk, even if it means selling a camp. That way, they can work on the program, hiring, getting donations, etc. without this cloud on the horizon.

Let's ignore the difference between Arrow WV & BSA as that always seemed a bit questionable. Why would BSA want to keep Summit through bankruptcy? National Jamboree every 3 years, perhaps World every 10. Generates a ton of excitement & positive revenue. Annual summer camps and big HA adventure option for big population areas. Again, excitement & revenue. Ability to provide summer camp as council camps in the region are lost to bankruptcy. ... Not yet true ... but I think we need to be prepared for this eventuality. Many councils will likely have no summer camps going forward. In addition to Summit, I would not be surprised if Territories start managing summer camps through selected councils. There are already a ton of rumors in other locations (FB & Reddit) of this coming as early as 2022. Even the TCC is showing where there is overlap in camps (so sell one and keep the other). If they give up Summit, they may then end up risking their stance on other HA bases. Why would BSA want to lose Summit? Still massively in debt (probably upside down on the loan). JP Morgan? Likely realizes the value of the property is under loan amount, so has no desire to call in the loan. They are motivated (as we see in the bankruptcy) to renegotiate terms. I think Summit was a mistake as it took too much funding .. but at this point, the question is should BSA fight for the right to pay off $150M? more to keep Summit. What they spent previously is already lost. I would probably give up Summit to save Philmont. That said, I have several scouts that went there (and nephews) who rave about the place. I honestly heard more positive comments and excitement from the scouts that went to Summit than scouts on other trips (Philmont, Sea Base, etc.) That could be because it was a Jamboree ... or it could be that my older scouter views of what I think is fun (hiking/canoeing) might not be what scouts want (ATV, zip lines, BMX, hanging out with a large group of scouts, etc.).

I looked at a few and they are consistent. Insurance companies have different reasons. One was very interesting as they are targeting a specific council. This firm represents 4,000 claimants. https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/7cef4ee9-129c-42d4-8e66-7e691ea43021_3284.pdf I found it interesting to see how they look at council finances and camps. I had a feeling that councils selling camps left and right (just for operational cash) would come back and haunt us ...

Interesting point from one of the bigger law firms. Doe v. Boy Scouts of America, 2016 IL App (1st) 152406. So... this lawfirm's argument is that 100% of the claims in Illinois will be able to proceed against both LCs and COs even though Illinois has a 38 year old limit and no lookback window.

Today alone, here is who is objecting to BSA's plan (there are many, many other objections): 60051 and 63823 (“Claimants”) 90696 91700 92564 93309 94211 Claimants 53 claimants from another firm Travelers Casualty and Surety Company, Inc. (f/k/a Aetna Casualty & Surety Company), St. Paul Surplus Lines Insurance Company, and Gulf Insurance Company (“Travelers”) 1,800 claimants represented by Zuckerman Spaeder LLP Claim No. SA-71855, K.P., Claim No. SA-66172, E.K., Claim No. SA-78274 United Methodist Ad Hoc Committee (the “Ad Hoc Committee”) and its constituent churches 88820 69930 70225 69999 Claimants Great American Assurance Company, f/k/a Agricultural Insurance Company, Great American E&S Insurance Company, f/k/a Agricultural Excess and Surplus Insurance Company, and Great American E&S Insurance Company (collectively, “Great American”) Knights of Columbus Another law firm representing a lot of claimants (too many to count) Claimant SA-35 Another law firm representing a lot of claimants (too many to count) LDS Another law firm representing a lot of claimants (too many to count) A named claimant 91806 It goes on, and on, and on ... This is just the list TODAY. Alarms should be going off at BSA HQ. Their plan is a failure. No judge will let this proceed. They need to tell their counsel it's time to settle and stop playing games.

I have not see a singled filing that is in favor of the new plan. LSD, the Methodist Church, insurance companies and many, many law firms are all rejecting the plan. Outside of JP Morgan and BSA, who is approving? BSA lawyers are a waste of money and hopefully other companies see their incompetence on display. If they cannot generate a plan that gets agreement, then what the hell was the point of the plan. Mosby should fire them and call in a couple of $100/hr lawyers. At least they would be worth their salary and perhaps we can last a bit longer before Chapter 7. The judge needs to take charge May 19th. Objection after objection after objection. Not a single document in favor of the plan (except perhaps JP Morgan). https://cases.omniagentsolutions.com/documents?clientid=CsgAAncz%2b6Yclmvv9%2fq5CGybTGevZSjdVimQq9zQutqmTPHesk4PZDyfOOLxIiIwZjXomPlMZCo%3d&tagid=1153&dateFrom=05/6/2021&dateTo=05/6/2021

Courts and DOJ in other cases have clamped down on excessive fees. This one seems like she simply doesn't care or is overwhelmed. Look at the Department of Justice going after law firms representing Purdue Pharma as part of their bankruptcy case. I wonder if the DOJ will step in at some point (probably well after the fact).

By the way ... many plaintiff lawyers agree. Just read Kosnoff's Twitter thread.

FYI ... This is a repeated story. Just add BSA to the list. USA Gymnastics - https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/while-larry-nassar-victims-wait-lawyers-cash-in-on-usa-gymnastics-bankruptcy/2019/12/17/b782e07a-10a0-11ea-b0fc-62cc38411ebb_story.html

So ... BSA lawyers are 2/3 of the total fees and they appear to be delaying the whole process. At some point ... I wonder if we look back and find out the BSA lawyers' advice was based on their goal of maximizing the money they get out of this entire process.

As requested, move some comment from this thread to the Chapter 11 one. This topic can continue to discuss Respondeat superior. Note ... no comment was deleted, they were just moved.

I moved in some of the comments from the Respondeat Superior thread. No comments were deleted in either thread. Unlocked.

If I ran council X ... I would want to know what the TCC is looking for as a payout for a settlement. That way, I can go back to our leadership and determine ... do we fight or surrender. I know they didn't give actual values yet, but at least it gives me an idea of the process on how to get that so I can prepare.

I have a mixed opinion on this. I know it’s nearly impossible to have 100% safety and society has changed over time in terms of understanding child sex abuse and how to increase protections. I do think BSA is doing most of what it can now. That said, I really struggle saying BSA wasn’t at fault pre 1990s. What is your thoughts when you hear that the head of the Big Brother program approach the BSA to work on preventing sex abuse in 1980 and the BSA did nothing. That psychologist in 1981 wrote to BSA leaders that they need to vet Scoutmasters more given the abuse. Nothing. That BSA leadership never even gave the sex abuse reports to their safety committee (their safety leader said at one point more scouts drowned than were abused which was 1000% false). There are reports of BSA employees actively asking parents not to file charges and asking police chiefs to keep reports out of newspapers. BSA leaders (both national and council) admitting they kept this quiet as it was bad for business. Again, I know hindsight 20/20 and some of this was the society at the time. I also know at some point you have to move on otherwise many organizations should disappear. But when I see Big Brother program and others pointing out the issue in the 1980s and BSA leaders quotes where they actively hid the situation... I really struggle to defend the BSA. In the end, hundreds of not thousands of men joined the BSA with the intent to have sex with boys. Based on what I see, too many employees of the BSA covered this up.

A big part of the funding came from the BSA. They had to spend $6.8M on those ads. However, I believe you are correct that other funding came in as well. https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/boy-scouts-launch-ads-on-how-abuse-victims-can-seek-money/2020/09/01/276a0688-ec84-11ea-bd08-1b10132b458f_story.html

I don’t know the TCC opinion about this, but it seems most law firms filing objections over the offer are taking a different legal path. 1) BSA must provide at least the amount to the settlement trust as if National goes chapter 7. 2) If national goes chapter 7, there is no national BSA to renew local council charters. 3) If a local council charter isn’t renewed, then per the terms of their initial charter, 100% of their assets must be given to National BSA. 4) So the liquidation offer must be the liquidation of the entire BSA. It would help if the judge rules on this theory.

There were various threads leading up to bankruptcy. It has been a long road. Pre 1990s, its clear that some in BSA leadership (it appears to be primarily National, but some LCs) actively hid cases of sexual abuse. There are now many quotes from BSA leaders (and other individuals including the Boys club) indicating that BSA hid abuse. This set the stage for what is happening now. BSA has seen a slow decline of participants since a 1990s surge. 2000 - 2018 ... BSA fought in court and public over gay/transgender youth & gay/transgender leaders. They managed to tick off both sides, causing COs to drop, donations to drop and likely further membership drops. Some time in the +2015 range ... LDS likely informed BSA they were leaving (taking away a ton of funding & members) BSA adds girls to mixed response ... again, transition not handled well within ranks. Some girls joined, some long time members dropped. In the end, it wasn't a huge surge of members to cover the LDS loss. Since 2017 or so, BSA indicating the SOL changes and lookback windows could cause financial damage if insurance companies don't cover all loses. 2017 - 2020 various law changes on lookback (major one was New Jersey as that was National HQ of BSA for many years and opened up the waterfall of cases). Jan 1, 2020 LDS leaves BSA Feb 2020 BSA declares bankruptcy March 2020 Covid toll begins Summer 2020 BSA was ordered to fund a massive advertising campaign to reach 95% of males within the required age groups. Per WSJ, some investment funds began funding groups to find claimants. Nothing happened in court since. (Well it seems like nothing). If BSA didn't enter in bankruptcy in Feb 2020, they would have spent most of their money on lawyers defending the first round of several hundred lawsuits. After losing a few of those cases, they would have wiped away the rest of their cash/value. Most claimants would have received nothing. I think BSA did want to create a settlement fund to ensure a broad group of abused could get some compensation (vs only the first few who won lawsuits). I also agree that they wanted this to be behind them as well. They didn't predict Covid nor 84,000 claims ... that pretty much destroyed any plans they had. I don't think they had bad intent. I really do think they though bankruptcy would be the best answer. In the meantime, most of us operate our units with little impact (at this point) from bankruptcy ... other than possibly the fee increases. If Covid wasn't hitting, I expect they year would have been fairly normal. I do expect the future may get a bit rough for operating BSA units.

FWIW, we just got an invite for a council townhall about a number of topics including bankruptcy. May 19 date set, prequestions are allowed.

So ... just a quick reset ... I'm sure others can add/modify. Just attempting to see where this case stands. BSA has created a 2nd settlement offer that has 2 parts. One with a higher payout that would include LC & COs and settle their lawsuits and and 2nd that would only protect National (with a lower offer). BSA negotiated a settlement with Hartford Insurance for $650M. I believe this is only included if the total package passes (as it includes a settlement for all LCs). I don't believe I have seen a formal objection from the TCC to the 2nd offer ... but I'm sure it is coming. The FCR and Collation of Abused have formally objected to the 2nd offer. Multiple other law firms objected. TCC is requesting an estimation of damages for all claimants (they est $102B). Multiple insurance companies, the BSA, LDS and Methodist Church have filed objections. I believe the May 19 hearing will discuss this. BSA released a schedule/timeline assuming the 2nd settlement offer (either part) is accepted that shows them exiting bankruptcy sometime in August. It appears there is some sort of mediation going on this week in New York. Court had demanded a mediation in Miami that appears to have solved very little. TCC is looking to sue JP Morgan over the Philmont & Summit loans ... but not sure the status of that. Any other updates? I know I'm missing a lot, but hard to keep track. I thought it would be good to summarize what will happen May 19th and the status of the various issues in court.

All voted democratic in the last election. When it comes up to vote, its tough to vote against. The difference is that more Republican leaning states are preventing this from coming to vote and more Democratic leaning states are getting these bills to vote. It really doesn't matter ... other than I think the momentum for new states to adapt lookback windows (and thus putting more LCs at risk) will slow as the number remaining states without these lookback windows are in more heavy Republican states. Also note that Georgia's law only allowed civil cases lookback against the perpetrators ... not institutions. The clear issue in bankruptcy for BSA (and LCs in future) is the civil lookback windows against institutions. I think there is bipartisan support for removal of criminal and civil SOLs against individuals ... there is a lack of bipartisan support for lookback windows against institutions. That is the big $ one that I think many are questioning.

Revenge is probably too tough of a word. I think it is more of .. at a certain point, regardless of how bad the organization was, there should be some time limits in laws for civil charges. I think the prior laws were too tight ... you need to give more time than just a few years after someone turns 18. Going forward, I think there should be a limit that at around 40, you lose the ability to sue institutions in civil court, but can sue criminally indefinitely. I also have no issue suing individuals civil indefinitely (those directly involved in the abuse or coverup). I can't argue with this and they should have mandated training. That said, GSUSA doesn't require training. None of the youth sports I volunteered for required training. So its tough to say BSA is an outlier, in fact, the 80% is better than most other organizations I have seen. Hopefully others also take heed. I was looking at state level revival laws. Of the top 10 Republican states (from last election), only 2 had civil revival laws (WV & Ark). Only 2 of the top 10 Democratic states don't have civil revival laws (Maryland & Washington). Maryland's effort failed primarily due to Republicans in 2019... I see a partisan divide, but perhaps that is simply correlation.

I’ll step into this thicket a bit. I think there is an argument that there should be a statue of limitations for civil cases. Otherwise, what company would be able to exist today that existed in the past. Most Germany companies should probably go bankrupt over their involvement in WWII. Many American companies should go bankrupt over lawsuits from their crimes 50+ years ago. If we go back and look at actions that occurred by every organization with no time limits, I wonder if any organization but recent ones could survive. At some point, society moves on, admits the sins of the past but doesn’t destroy every institution that existed. I see a frequent question about ... what if it was my son. Of course, I would want the institution shut down. However, that doesn’t mean the law should match my desire of unabated revenge. I don’t blame anyone seeking compensation, regardless of the time passed. I would do the exact same as those in this thread. At the same time, I think these look back laws were not made to ensure safety today. They appear to be a gift from Democratic politicians to their trial lawyer donors. The biggest impact is that they simply jack up insurance costs to the point only wealthy families will be able to join scouting or many other youth activities. This is probably coming off more rough than I intend. I really do think BSA senior leaders hid this, especially before 1990. I’ve completely accepted the fact that based on law, BSA needs to pay. I also know there are no winners here... those abused will get some funds but I’m sure they would trade that in to undo the abuse. Scouts today will have less options.... but perhaps that was going to happen anyway. Im still hoping for a settlement soon.

This merger is just the start. There are 112 Girl Scout Councils in the USA ... and their youth membership is at ~1.8 million. I expect they lost numbers due to Covid, but likely much more than the <800,000 left in the BSA. 16 territories and 7 councils per territory gets you to the 112 number. I wouldn't be surprised if we are headed that way. So we may see 100+ councils disappear in the next 2-5 years.