Jump to content


  • Content Count

  • Joined

  • Last visited

Everything posted by bsrsakima39

  1. bsrsakima39

    New BSA knot

    Hi BP, I'm a 20-year-old ASM who came up through the program, earned Eagle, and have continued to remain overly active in my council. To get it off my chest now, I do wear 3 knots. I agree with you that there are some Scouters out there who do not have the true purpose of our organization in the forefront of their minds. I am incredibly sorry to hear that the gentleman that you know is one of those people. It is very unfortunate that someone with that much experience and knowledge is not using it to the full extent of his ability. I, too, know people like this. They are not nearly as malicious as you describe, but, if you watch their actions closely, it is clear. This being said, I do not agree with your claim that the vast majority of "generals" stray from the path our Founder intended. It is a statement based on your experience with these folks. My experience is different. Most of the "generals" that I know are fantastic, knowledgeable people who have been involved in the program for quite some time and are here to share that knowledge while mentoring young men. You will not, however, see me going around telling everyone online that most "generals" are great Scouters. This is because I know there are people who haven't been blessed like I have and who have had bad experiences with such members of our great organization. To take this to an extreme, my worst experiences have been with women who have no Scouting experience. Shall I start petitioning Mazzuca to ban all women from our organization because of my sole experiences? Absolutely not. Clearly, you have had some terrible experiences with some Scouters, just as we all have had. I am frustrated at those incredibly experienced Scouters who are, quite simply, jerks. However, I petition you to not soil the name of all those who are proud of their service to the youth of America, who are most definitely in need of great mentors. -Wulamoen P.S. Because no proper post on this website would be complete without a personal jab (yet done in good jest), what image does it give off that you have chosen to force us all to refer to you as BP, Lord Baden-Powell, the war hero and founder of our beloved organization?
  2. bsrsakima39

    New BSA knot

    Have you considered that the three colors of the knot (red, blue, yellow) are also the three colors of the anniversary logo?
  3. bsrsakima39

    OA Jeopardy

    The OA Jeopardy game from NLS is not available for distribution. However, you are more than welcome to create your own game, as many lodges have done.
  4. bsrsakima39

    seeking input on OA High Adventure

    Hi Lisabob! First of all, a little disclaimer, I haven't been to these programs. That being said, I have been a section officer for the past 4 years and know the OAHA program fairly well. 1) Yes. Will it be hard work, probably. However, your son will not be forced to do work that he can not handle. He'll definitely be tired at the end of the day, but will not be worked to death. He is, after all, paying to be there... OAWV will, most likely, be more demanding than OAOA. He'll have to portage his canoe and will be doing plenty of paddling during his two weeks there. Not to say that OAOA is a cake-walk... 2) This one, again, depends on which trek he goes on. Both will require his swimming skills to be strong, since both are water based. As long as he's in good shape, I wouldn't worry about OAOA too much. Strong canoeing skills would be helpful for OAWV. He should definitely get some in before going. It's primarily up to him, since I don't know his level of physical activity... 3) Sorry...can't help you here... This will obviously vary year to year, depending on the applicants. It's not an automatic "NO" if he hadn't gone to the others. 4) From others that I know who have gone, the notification is generally on time. Definitely not as late as May! 5) Unfortunately, it will probably be too late. The programs usually fill up pretty quickly. Sorry to not be super specific, but I hope that this at least points you in the right direction.
  5. bsrsakima39

    Distinction of election

    I have to agree with UCEagle and dg98. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter. However, let's say that we do distinguish between the two. Which is considered "more important?" The adult who has involved as a youth (to what extend, we have no idea), or the adult who was (theoretically) selected because he has the ability to affect the Order in a positive manner? Both are incredibly important, both bring different perspectives. One of the goals of removing the flap restrictions was to recognize us as one Brotherhood, no member being any greater or less than any other. Like the universal flap rule or not, we all should be striving to break down borders amongst members.
  6. bsrsakima39

    Membership Decline Reasons

    Eagledad makes a good point. Actual numbers tell us relatively little. Percentages are what we need to look at. However, even they are not entirely accurate. Using the figures from USAToday and those that Beavah provided, the percentage of youth reached for the Boy Scouting (ignoring Cubs for now) program is not suffering too badly. 2005 - 3.34% 2006 - 3.27% 2007 - 3.25% 2008 - 3.26% 2009 - 3.25% I would be curious to see what the results would be going back, as well as how accurate national's numbers are. Sure, we are getting some loss for the various speculated reasons. However, I don't think we are hemorrhaging like some people make it seem. None the less, the goal is to grow the program, which isn't happening...
  7. bsrsakima39

    Photography in ceremonies

    BigDave, First of all, sorry that no one responded to you in almost 2 months... I haven't been able to find an exact paragraph saying that photography is not allowed. That leads me to assume it lumps into the safeguarding that is mentioned at the beginning of every ceremony script. National probably couldn't put it in writing, because then it would lead to a question of secrets in the BSA. I know that is isn't exactly what you were looking for, but I hope it helps.
  8. bsrsakima39

    OA Pocket Flap wear

    CR14, If you really want to get technical, your son can wear any flap that your lodge produced at any time, especially now that National has put a ban on honor level restricted flaps. However, VigilNavyCPO and jet have the best recommendations. Talk to some people, like the chapter and lodge officers/advisers, and see what they say about the subject. Lodge culture really determines the outcome of this. I know that I would never wear a NOAC flap for one that I didn't attend, but I do enjoy collecting them, and I do know people who wear flaps for events they didn't attend. Actually, just yesterday I saw a guy wearing my favorite of our NOAC flaps. This guy doesn't attend lodge functions, let alone NOAC. Should this stop him? Who knows? I sure as heck don't care. We had different flap colors for the different honor levels. Now an Ordeal member could, theoretically, wear a Vigil flap, but that will probably never happen because the colors (and the flap design) have been the same since the merger in 1972. They have become part of our culture. So, Captain, you should check with those who know how your lodge handles it, and trust them. No one outside your lodge would probably ever question him, so they are the ones you should be concerned about.
  9. bsrsakima39

    Nemat Hike or Brotherhood Interview???

    My lodge still does a variant of the B-hood Interview. To my knowledge, National never delivered an edict, like they did on different patches for the different levels. Please, if they did send an Operations Update about it, let me know. We hold a Brotherhood workshop, either during the Ordeal or on another day. The first part of the workshop is, unfortunately, a classroom type experience. We have discussions about the symbolism and meaning within the Ordeal, review the items to be memorized, and do that general stuff. The second part includes breaking up into groups of about four. One of the Arrowmen running the workshop is paired with each group, and they cover the memorization items again, making sure everyone knows them. We find the groups work well, because there are others there to help then if they stumble. We do not do a one-on-one test. John, the interview that we do is not a pass or fail situation, and is not intended to be a stump-the-chump type game. If they still have an issue with one bit of the Obligation, we will keep working on it, but we will not deny them B-hood membership. The candidates then write their letters. On the workshops that are held during non-Ordeal weekends, we also include a short walk, where an experienced Arrowman talks with the candidate about being active and their overall impressions of the Order. The candidates are then told where and when to meet to head to the ceremony. This process works well for us. Although I'm not the biggest fan of the sample hike I read about in the Guide to Inductions (I think that's where I found it) I do like the idea of stopping and reflecting on the way to the ceremony, and might have to suggest that for next time.
  10. bsrsakima39

    OA Brotherhood requirements

    As mentioned before, the requirements are: 1)Memorize the various required items (song, obligation, handclasp, etc.) 2)Advance in your understanding of the Ordeal - Meaning learn about the symbolism and such 3)Remain registered and serve your unit for 10 months 4)Make a plan for continued lodge service 5)Write a letter to the lodge sec. about your service plan There is not technically any service requirement in the process. Many lodges run B-hood conversion during the Ordeal, in which case, the members usually do give service as elangomats. Some lodges also run specific day events for the Conversion (Brotherhood Blitz, B-hood Conversion Day, etc.). This day often does not involve any sort of project. Also as previously mentioned, some see B-hood as a rank advancement, it is definitely not suppose to be so. Ordeal membership is given to you by your troop in recognition and expectation. B-hood is given to you by...well...you. It signifies that you are making a commitment to the Order. Then, Vigil may be given to you by the lodge, also in recognition and expectation. Our lodge has only denied one person B-hood in most everyone's memory, and that was only because he chose to sleep through the workshop we hold during Ordeal. He showed no interest whatsoever about participating, and didn't complete the requirements so he was not allowed to participate in the ceremony. The "Brotherhood Interview," or whatever you want to call it, shouldn't be like a job interview, or a test. My lodge does the interview type thing in small groups, so they can help each other if needed. We also do a variation of the Nimat hike, where a lodge member talks with the candidate one-on-one (however, still meeting YP protocol). I personally think that the massive hike I've seen described, where the candidates all walk in silence, share a snack, and take various breaks to discuss B-hood on the way to the ceremonial site kind of silly. So, Frank, the basics are: the SM has no control over a youth's time in the OA after he approves his name for the ballot to be elected (that is, if the SM is not heavily involved in the lodge...). He can encourage Scouts to be active, as you have, which is great! The recommendation to have an adult nominated and active in the OA is really helpful. If the OA doesn't have support within the troop, there is a very slim chance than the youth will see any value in the program, and probably won't participate (unless they are Scouting junkies like me...). I hope this thread has helped clarify things for you.
  11. The pork is really not an issue. The cook staff just needs to be aware so that they either don't plan pork or have an alternative. The Sabbath causes a few more problems. sheldonsmom's son (Sheldon?) has the right idea. Talk to the people who are knowledgeable in the field and try to come up with a solution. My instant thoughts are, "Who said the Ordeal needs to take place on Saturday?" Yes, it is the most convenient, but if they are unable to work, we need to come up with another option. Perhaps we could run an Ordeal from Saturday evening to Sunday evening. Or offer some weekday Ordeals during the summer.
  12. bsrsakima39

    OA Elections in Large Troops

    What does that say about the effectiveness of youth elections if the SM adds in votes? An adult's wishes should not override the decision of the youth in elections. Whatever the outcome, there will be a way to survive it. They'll have another chance in a year.
  13. bsrsakima39

    OA Elections in Large Troops

    jet - This is definitely something that we need to evaluate and educate on more effectively. There is one troop in my council that regularly charters around 80 scouts. Each year they put forward a handful youth candidates and two adults. Of those who go through the Ordeal, I think about 10 to 15 youth are currently due-paid members. Of those youth, I probably see 4 at events. So, it might be valuable to National to look into your suggestion. Your comment about popular and outgoing Scouts being elected is standard, even for small troops. For the answer to this, we need to look at the stated purpose of the OA. In the election video, the advise for voting is something along the lines of the scout who you enjoy camping with, smiles, is friendly to all, and generally lives up to the Scout Oath and Law in their daily life. Who would most Scouts like to go camping with and view as friendly, the Scout who talks to lots of different people, makes jokes, and is always friendly, or the Scout who is much more reserved, sticks to the people he is comfortable with, and simply does his patrol job without reaching for more? For most scouts, there is a clear difference. Part of it is popularity. If it weren't, every Scout who met the requirements would be inducted. The biggest problem I see with your method is standards. Everyone would have different vote necessities. If only the kid's best friend thinks he knows him well enough to vote for him, that would mean he is in. Is this actually a situation that you want to allow? As for the list, I actually encourage that troops make up lists of the candidates rather than have the scouts write the names down. There are several reasons for that one. First, it makes it a heck of a lot easier for the election team, as there shouldn't be any handwriting issues (not to say that there can't be ambiguous marks on the ballot...). Second, it actually helps those scouts you are trying to promote. A kid is more likely to circle a name than write it out. Especially with 15 people on the ballot, it can be important to have pre-printed ballots. However, individual abstentions are stretching it in my opinion. Your OTOH comment is correct and has issues at the same time. I've noticed, at least in my lodge, those youth who are active in the OA tend to be active in their troop. Their skills are known by those in their troop, and they are respected thusly. However, as you already know, making a blanket statement like that is dangerous because there will always be that one exception. But, you already know that bit... I know that I haven't really solved your problem, but I hope you have some more thoughts to mull over now.
  14. bsrsakima39

    OA Elections-So many new Scouts

    Vicki - Here lies a problem. Some lodges do run elections at summer camp. Others, like mine, do not. Elections, for us, are usually run somewhere between February and the middle of May. All elections need to be completed by May 15th, in order for us to assemble a call-out list, approve adults, and send letters to other summer camps for those troops going out-of-council. I've only ever experienced one election during camp, and that was an out-of-council unit who's lodge normally runs elections at camp. It was a pain in the butt for me, as camp chief, because I didn't know how many Scouts I was suppose to have called-out until the day of the ceremony, but if in-camp elections are the norm, I can see them working. gwd-scouter - I generally agree with Eagle and jet. Since the "before the cross-over" option is not available, you need to get the candidates involved with the new scouts, but not in an unnatural way. I've heard of SM's assigning special projects to overcome issues of this sort, but I see that as completely against the goal of the election. Consider having your Guides have the 4 scouts help them with instructing or something along those lines. The new guys will see enough of the guides over the next year. If the 4 guys have POR's, be sure to have the new scouts introduced to the POR's as soon as possible, so they can see the impact these scouts have on the troop. Definitely encourage the candidates to go on any camp-outs between now and the election. With a smaller troop, like yours, the candidates should have plenty of opportunities to get face time before the election. One thing to consider is that youth can be a better judge of character than adults at times. (Not to say that your situation, Eagle92, is acceptable) With over a month of exposure, the new guys will have definitely made an opinion about the candidates (we actually make up our minds about people in the first 3 seconds, not to say that can't be changed...). If a candidate does not get elected, don't suddenly jump to the conclusion that it was just the naive new scouts voting him down because they don't know him. I've seen too many SM's that simply don't understand that youth don't always act the same in front of adults as they do youth. Maybe the candidate treated the new scouts poorly? Maybe he isn't the great kid that he turns on for you? If it comes time for the election and you still feel that they haven't really met the candidates, go with jet's recommendation. When I run elections, I always make sure that they understand abstention. While you can't force them to abstain, you can recommend it. Worst comes to worst and you don't get anyone elected, it's quality that counts, not quantity. If all 4 get elected, plus the 3 current members, almost half of your troop (nearly all of your originals) will be Arrowmen. That is a lot! Most troops that I run into only have a handful, and finding active Arrowmen is more difficult. Rather than having lots of Arrowmen, we should be pushing our current Arrowmen to be active. gwd - From what I've seen of you on the forum, you seem fairly experienced, so if this all is stuff that you understand, I apologize. If not, I hope it helps!
  15. bsrsakima39

    Uniform Prices going up.....

    O.K. If this is true, this is getting ridiculous. If the goal is to have everyone in a uniform, which is part of the program, this is not helping at all. The uniform already rivals the costs of American Eagle, Abercrombie, and other name-brand clothing companies. There are already many kids who have troubles affording a full uniform, why alienate them even more? I guess that I should not get too worked up about this until it is confirmed...
  16. bsrsakima39

    Terminology: Tap-out

    Ahhh... good call. Now I'm reminded of "Atlas Shrugged" even more. The people truly are the program. I guess that I need to change my mindset when it comes to this issue a little bit. Thanks for the great discussion. It's one of the reasons that I love this site.
  17. bsrsakima39

    Terminology: Tap-out

    DeanRx- I get your point now. Some of the older gentlemen in my district like to complain about everything new and never offer any suggestions or quality feedback. That may be why I jumped on this one... I understand dads wanting similar experiences for their kids as they had in their youth. However, some must recognize that similar experiences are not always possible, or safe. They need to recognize that there is a reason for Safe Swim Defense and travel permits. Although I agree with you, there is certainly too much paperwork (especially for an organization that claims to teach environmentally friendly practices). I agree that the background checks, ratios, etc., do not necessarily add anything constructive to the program for the boys, but they are, unfortunately, necessary in the present society. No, it wasn't your fault that a few leaders were sick creeps. It isn't your fault that lawyers are able to convince people that lawsuits are the proper action. No, it isn't your fault that some people are just plain stupid. However, we must all, unfortunately, deal with that, and I feel that complaining about it is not the proper way to deal. Wow...this series reminds me of "Atlas Shrugged"... It can definitely burn-out volunteers, and I hate to see good men leave because it is so much work, but I would also hate to see a lawsuit brought up against the BSA that forces it to limit the program even more. So, if the pain-in-the-butt protocol allows us to continue the program, I am wiling to deal with it. I agree with your comment about the badges v. competency. I hate when I hear that someone has earned every single merit badge, or is an Eagle at the age of 13. Something just goes on in my mind. The summer camp that I worked at actually employed an Eagle Scout who couldn't tie a single knot as the Scoutcraft director. That scared the heck out of me. I think that there should be a push for the basics, but it should be handled effectively. The First Class in the First Year initiative that some people push is not the proper way to go about the program. Quality advancement should be stressed, not advancement for advancements sake. I actually use the outdoor skills that I learned through Scouting in my current college job. I run backpacking, hiking, canoeing, and other outdoor trips. I am amazed at peoples' lack of outdoor knowledge. I am not going to delve too deep into the gay/atheist issue here. I think that I have derailed this topic enough. Overall, I agree with you, but do have a few minor qualms. One of my best friends in Scouting, a great Eagle Scout, Vigil Honor member, and veteran staff member just came out of the closet. However, I understand the BSA reluctance to let gays participate in the program. I could also argue both sides for quite a while. I love your 4 points. Scouting should be a game with a purpose. I try to run all of the trainings I do that way. If more leaders followed and understood those principles, I think that our organization would not have as many image issues as it does. However, those are completely compatible with the safety aspects. Well, mostly compatible. I did not attempt to advocate for an adult led program. It may seem that way, but it was not the intent. I really prefer if troops be youth-led, they way it should be. More adults need to realize that Boy Scouts is not Cub Scouts (let's not get into that topic here too...). However, those that go around bashing a troop program and saying that youth patrols are the only way to go are also flawed. There needs to be a happy medium. I was/am one of those youth with ability. When I was SPL, my Scoutmaster stayed out of the picture attempting to make sure the other ASMs were out of the picture. It wasn't a perfectly youth run troop (the committee needed some better training to realize their role), but the spot light was definitely on the youth. Sometimes, an adult hand is necessary. I have been going to meetings of another troop while I am at college. The SPL is a kid who, I think, has the ability somewhere deep inside, but has difficulty handling the program. The SM does not have a good enough handle on the program either (He just assigned me the position of JASM. I'm 18...). He is doing what I would want my SM to do, stay out of the way. But, this youth really needs someone to mentor him to success, not just stand there and watch meritocracy. So, there needs to be a balance. The BSA is a youth led organization, not entirely youth run. Although we should be given the reins, we need the support of adults in order to succeed. Your statement about adventure, learning, service to others, and leadership hits the goal right on the mark. We should work on changing the BSA stance on somethings, however I sometimes question the methodology the fighters use. I understand that, to you, changing the name from a tap-out to a call-out is part of this attitude of degradation. I would probably feel the same way of they changed a call-out to a "public recognition event", or something of the like. The people who admonish you for calling it a tap-out are ridiculous, in my opinion. However, I hope you see that there is a reason that the term is no longer in public use. As for the PC skits and songs, that irritates me as well. Some of the funniest stuff is the banned stuff, just because it could get us in trouble. Once our society is no longer sue-happy, which I hope happens soon (but, I;m not counting on it), I will just right up there and sing those songs and preform those skits. Now that have read a little more of your beliefs and calmed down a little, I think that we are probably more in agreement than it originally seemed to me. I will readily acknowledge that you were tappped out. Just the same, I will continue calling the current ceremony a call-out. I guess the age old adage really applies here. To each, his own. Narraticong- As I said before in this post, I do not believe in adult-run troop Scouting. The adults should never act as the leaders. They are guides, or advisers/advisors. They should be the back-up, not the front line. I agree that there is no valid argument for an adult led troop. That is not the purpose of even the modern day B-P style scouting movement. One of the goals is to provide leadership training and experience to the next leaders of the world. When I first joined Scouting, I was the first member of a new troop. We had just a handful of youth, and functioned much like you described, except we elected an SPL right off the bat. I definitely advocate that troops use knives, start fires, and go backpacking. Although, I also advocate troops that play soccer and other sports (although I don't really advocate basing an entire sector of Scouting on soccer...). The 1930's handbook, although probably more appealing to kids than a book full of diagrams and first aid, would probably not help our public relations issue much... However, I do agree that something needs to be done with the handbook; I'm just not sure what yet. As for the societal changes, I never even implied that the changes are all benefits. I hate that we have to worry about child molestation and include a mini-booklet in the handbook all about it. I hate that a new requirement involves internet safety. I hate that patrols can't easily take camping trips on their own. I am not advocating an massive shift in your belief system, but I am advocating that you recognize the overall shift and at least try to work with it a little bit. I am not recommending that you allow Scouts to sit in their tent with iPods, GameBoys, and cell phones during camping trips (actually, I really like troops that don't allow personal electronics). What I am recommending is that those advocating for a traditional Scouting movement be more understanding that this generation has much, much different view of, well, everything, than previous generations. As for claiming that actions define the words, they do until media like this (http://cityonahillpress.com/article.php?id=1138) get a hold and twist things that we do. That one isn't even that bad compared to some of the slander I have head and read about Scouting and the OA. Words do matter. And finally, Scouter- I am interested to hear if the original version uses tap-out or call-out. If it does use call-out, how did it evolve into the tap-out? On the other hand, if it was changed, I wonder what happened, other than the elimination of the hard taps, that convinced National to change it's designation, especially if the tap-out originally followed the dictionary meaning.
  18. bsrsakima39

    Terminology: Tap-out

    I mean that all in the most respectful way possible. There is a reason that I signed up for this forum. I value all of your opinions, and admire those of you who have such passion for this great organization. However, I still fell that this needs to be said and mulled over.
  19. bsrsakima39

    Terminology: Tap-out

    Although the OA has banned actual tapping, the term does not simply become neutral. In fact, I know of a lodge that does still use tapping, and refers to it's call-outs as tap-outs. Granted, the taps are much lighter that I imagine they would have been "back in the day." Still, Scouter, you cannot strip the word of the physical tapping meaning just because the dictionary does not reference it. Words have powerful meanings and implications. Those meanings can change drastically over time. I wouldn't tell people that I was searching for a faggot if I were looking for a bundle of sticks. In time, it has gained the meaning of a gay person (another word that has gained meaning). If we were to declare tomorrow that homosexuals weren't allowed in America, gay would not instantly only refer to a happy state of mind again. Although I would probably not scold someone for using the term tap-out, I recognize that the OA preforms call-outs instead. It has become the standard. Tap-out is not even in the vocabulary of the majority of youth members where I come from, and, I would assume, the rest of the country. The "Old Guard," that seems to complain about the degradation of Scouting at every possible chance, uses the term, just to keep it alive, but most people simply don't care. Scouter, the website may not specifically say "Don't use the term tap-out!!!" However, I challenge you to find a place where it uses that term. Call-out has become the standard. In one sense, it is a PC issue. If the news hears that the OA is holding a "tap-out" this Friday, they are probably more likely to believe it is a dangerous event than a "call-out. We don't need any more negative press. I think that you will all agree with that. Finally, DeanRx, I want to address something you said. You said that most things in the BSA are being watered down and near ruined. There are a lot of people on this site who agree with that and voice the same complain over, and over, and over again, including some moderators. I agree that Scouting has had many changes since it was started by Lord Baden-Powell. Heck, it has had many changes since I joined the movement. However, it is not an abnormal ebb and flow that is occurring. No organization on the face of the planet has held completely static for almost 100 years. Needs have changed. The outdoors have changed. Society has changed. I don't necessarily like the fact that many troops I see don't run the patrol method effectively, but, unlike Kudu, I accept that, maybe that's the way things go. He can run an effective patrol-method troop. Good for him. He should keep running them. However, several troops that I know could not function in a completely traditional patrol function. Scouting truly needs those who stick to the basics and fight for their opinion. Otherwise, there is a chance that we could slide further down this slippery slope. However, you all need to realize that there will be some change in order to fit society. We are doing this for the boys of today, not the dads who want to relive the "good ole days."
  20. bsrsakima39

    Eagle BOR – passed without POR

    BP, with all due respect, I would recommend rereading BW's post. I can certainly see both sides of this argument. On one hand, the scout did not complete the requirement, and should have known better, especially if he was almost 18. On the other, the SM really screwed up here as well... How do you not know that a scout hasn't had a leadership position? And then, how do you sign off his Eagle application realizing that? And, the biggest question already raised, what did the application say for the POR lines? I wouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that we are teaching youth that lying is O.K. I don't believe that we are sending the right message on this one, but it is more a message of blaming adults for mistakes than outright lying. However, I'm certainly not condoning it. Being an Eagle Scout, this does sadden me a little. But, the board must have seen him otherwise qualified. Overall, I must agree with the boards decision because he was still a youth. I once saw this message in an e-mail, and I feel that it is appropriate here: 1. The Youth are the reason for and own the Scouting movement. 2. Anything that supports #1 is good, 3. Anything that diminishes #1 is bad. 4. In cases of confusion, consult #1. Having recently aged out in the beginning of this month, I guess that I might sympathize with the kid more than some of the...ummm...more experienced youth on this forum. Passing a kid because of an error is not the end of the world, nor does it lead to the corruption of the rank of Eagle. I have, sadly, seen youth leaders never do their job, and SM's still sign them off, simply because they held the position on paper. For all we know, this youth may have been more of a leader than the SPL of his troop. He could have unofficially served in a number of positions. Just because there is not a paper trail of leadership, does not mean that he did not live up to the spirit of the Eagle. However, when in doubt, consult #1.
  21. bsrsakima39

    Cleaning Patches

    Hi! I recently aquired a large quantity of patches from the 60's and 70's. A number of them have some dirt caked on them. Any tips on cleaning them with out causing any damage? Thanks!
  22. bsrsakima39

    Cleaning Patches

    Thanks, Kahuna! I tried some OxyClean today and it worked really well. I appreciate the advice!
  23. bsrsakima39

    Summer Camp Within 4-5 hours of NJ

    It seems that I'm getting into this a little late, but Camp Bashore of the Pennsylvania Dutch Council, near Lebanon, PA, is worth checking out. Its website is www.campbashore.org. They draw a lot of out of council troops.