HelpfulTracks

Questions to ask:

What does representing your country mean to you?

What do you think you can teach other scouts about your culture?

How would you reflect Baden-Powell's vision of world unity among scouts?

What are you looking forward to least about WSJ?

How will you use your WSJ experience to promote scouting when you return?

What are your future scouting plans?

I Am not sure if World contingents are under the same NO TOUR restrictions as US, but if not -- What do you most look forward to seeing in the US?

Neckers were a mandatory part of the uniform for 2017 NSJ, and I am told they will be for WSJ.

That said, field uniforms were only required for 2 of the 3 shows and for religious services. Most scouts, US and visiting countries, were in activity uniforms most of the time. The  majority of Scouts wore the necker when in field uniform.

At NSJ, World neckers were in high demand because there were at lest 10 to 1 ratio maybe more like 20-1) of US to World contingents. Also, some World contingents were limited to how many neckers they could get, others were not, it was dependent on the country.

At WSJ I think the US neckers will be in somewhat of a high demand because it is the home country, which everyone wants. I think that US neckers will not suffer too much from over supply considering they will only be approximately 5% of the attendees,

If total agreement was a condition of friendship, I would have no friends.

I see many opinions floating around about the possible/probable future of Scouting that includes female youth.

What is difficult, with so many potential variations, is to tell is what people support or oppose.

Based on what I saw in the video, a parallel track for girls in Cub and Boy Scouting is what is being considered. No doubt that some Packs/Troops will go coed regardless of what BSA National policy says, some councils clearly do not enforce National Policy already in myriad of issues.

So I have some questions in the form of a poll. Feel free to expound on your answers.

A young man is dead. Parents, friends and family are grieving.

I realize there may be something to learn from a safety and program perspective, but it is not something that is going to be solved here.

On the outside change that his friends or family are reading these boards, perhaps we could dial it back a bit.

Oh, I forgot Bugler. A good Bugler is priceless and entertaining.

I have not seen an active Bugler since I was a Scout, but there was one troop that really had a great one and used him. In fact that young man held the Bugler Position for 4 or 5 years. He even maintained that position when he held other PoR.

He played trumpet for a local high school band. We would see them at Camporee or Summer Camp. He played Reveille and Taps twice each day. He also called Assembly, Mess and a few other calls. My favorite was each morning at Summer camp his troop would assemble after breakfast, the SPL would talk and then send them out to whatever activities they had planed. HE normally played assembly to call everyone together but in this event he would play First Call to gather them (that is what you hear at horse races) and to send them off he would play charge. It was awesome.

You could hear his calls echoing all over Summer camp. A few adults and scouts grumbled at Reveille each morning but that troop always seemed so well organized as far as being where they should be and on time. We got to the point when we heard him play mess we would head back to our own camp for meals, we would start settling down for the night when he played Tatoo and shut out the lights when he played Taps. 

He could also play the harmonica like nobodies business. Like a said, a good Bugler is priceless and entertaining.

My troop has many scouts of first class or higher.  

 

what POR do other units double up on besides PL and APL?

I would ask your scouts what the troop needs.

As troops grow and their program becomes more involved (hopefully the scouts are developing more involved programs) then the needs for PoR grows.

Some troops have more than one ASPL. If you have more than one NSP then you will need more Troop Guides. Multiple instructors can be handy for busy troops. Multiple Den Chiefs is almost always a good idea, remember that the Scout is attending meetings for Troop and Pack. Packs may have 2 or more Webelos/AoL dens. IF you are working with multiple packs that also comes into play.

I have seen larger troops that have more than one outing a month have 2 QM's (one for each outing) or they may have 2 QM's with different responsibilities. I have also seen troops with 2 Historians, one that is more of a creator (photographer and writer and the other is a collector and organizer). Depending on the troops Website and Library size, both of those could have 2 or more PoR involved. Scribes are another option. IF Scribes are really doing what all is expected of them for an active troop, that is a load of work. THey work with Treasurer to track dues and expenditures, keep attendance, PLC and meeting notes, and work with Advancement Chair to track advancement.

We have a volunteer who is upset because the same people appear to get elected SPL and PLs. He wants to appoint all positions.  IT DOES NOT WORK! (emphasis).  Some Scouts who are appointed have no interest in the POR and could care less. Some Scouts who are interested, but do not have the knowledge, skills or abilities to do it. Other Scouts, seeing this then act indifferent or with disrespect towards them. Long story short, the troop slowly dies.

 

 

I've seen one troop do just that. As soon as the new SM started appointing PLs and the SPL so that "everyone gets a chance,"

 the troop started losing members to other troops, or outright quitting.

He needs to pump the breaks, everyone is getting a chance unless someone is telling some scouts they cannot run. The Scouts will choose who they feel are the best leaders. You could encourage the SPL to challenge some of those that are routinely being elected to PL positions by assigning them to Troop Guide, Instructor or some other position.

But outside of that or the SM asking a multi-term SPL to be a JASM then the adults needs to stay out of it.

They don’t. I never had any requirement signed off for any of those no Leadership less work positions. I wouldn’t allow the troop to do that.

I have to disagree with you on this ItsBrian.

First, BSA defines it as Position of Responsibility, not Leadership Role. Some PoR's do have direct leadership roles, but not all and that is why BSA defines it that way.

Second, when you say you would not allow a troop to do that. I assume that means if you where the SM. But the SM does not have the authority to change requirements. If BSA says a PoR meets the requirements for rank, the SM cannot say otherwise. HE could say we will not have that role, but that is drifting away from boy led.

Third, depending on how a troop functions a Webmaster, Historian and Librarian can have their hands full. IF you don't expect much from them and set the bar low, then you won't get much from them usually, because they may not know or understand what they can and should be doing. But if set the bar high, then those are worthy jobs.  For example:

1. A full library can have a huge number of resources, MB pamphlets, Leadership Guide (SPL, PL) and possibly troop developed leader guides. There are the 3 program books, which some troops check out by chapter for Patrols/Scouts to plan meetings and outings. There are troop forms (Meal planning, duty roster etc), non-scouting books that supplement skills (cookbooks, knots, first aid, pioneering edible plants etc.) As well as other Scouting guides like Guide to Safe Scouting, Advancement Guide, Uniform and Insignia, Scout Leader and Committee Guides. Some troops keep issues of Boy's Life and Scouters Magazine. A well stocked library could have hundred of books in it and take a great deal of effort to maintain.
2. Websites can take a great deal of effort to collect and write articles, take photos and manipulate them, upload and maintain content and calendars.
3. The same is true for historians that do research, take photos, collect newspaper articles, interview former scouts from the troop, create displays, catalog and maintain records of activities and individual/troop awards and write and create newsletters.

We do not encourage OA in our Troop for most of the reason already stated.

 

1. It is a good ole boys club
2. Pulls the top Scouts out of our unit
3. In our council at least, very poorly run
4. Does not allow females (we have a female Scoutmaster)
5. Not real thrilled with the ceremonies and Native American mimicry
6. The Ordeal looks like hazing
7. Looks like what we tell the scouts they cannot do - secret organization, hazing, exclusion etc.

That all being said, I have seen councils where it looks very well run and very open

How does the concept to "not encourage OA" manifest itself?

Does that mean:

• Your Troop does not hold elections or request election teams?
• Your Troop holds elections and attends Ordeal, but once they are over, the troop discourages discussion of OA in the troop?
• Is it an active campaign against OA? (i.e. The OA is a bad organization?)
• Does the Troop participate in events at Camporee or Jamboree that are hosted by OA?
• If you do not hold elections, what happens when a Scout wishes to join?

I am not being snarky, I just don't truly know how a troop can take a passive stance toward OA in a boy led troop.

To your points:

1. It is a good ole boys club  - If that is true, then have a discussion with the Council Scout Executive, he is the Supreme Chief of the Fire, if your Lodge is not acting as it should, he can and almost certainly will, address the issue. OA servers too important a function for a Council to let it wither on the vine because of poor behavior
2. Pulls the top Scouts out of our unit - if utilized by the Lodge AND the UNIT, the OA will give far more back than it takes from a unit. An Arrowman's first obligation is to his troop. Most Lodges will gladly provide all types of service to the unit if asked. Not to mention Leadership training, skills training and keeping older scouts involved in Scouting past when they may have normally moved on.
3. In our council at least, very poorly run - Fair enough, some are poorly run, the best way to fix that is to become involved, get trained and help fix the problems. OA is boy led just like troops, sometimes things run well, other times not so much. The Scouts are learning and need good mentors to help them.
4. Does not allow females (we have a female Scoutmaster) - OA absolutely DOES allow female adult Boy Scout Leaders as members. Only two types of units currently have youth members, Boy Scouts and Varsity, neither have female youth. If your Lodge is restricting adult females, then they are not following OA policy.
5. Not real thrilled with the ceremonies and Native American mimicry - this is a debate that will rage on both Pro and Con. I have seen members of various tribal nations on both sides of the argument. Personally, in recent years at least, I have not seen a display that was intentionally disrespectful. A small portion of my heritage is Cherokee and Chickasaw, I will occasionally cringe at certain things I see, but I would rather help them learn about what they were mistaken about than restrict them. Events like Wachipi (recently at Philmont) are held to educate Arrowmen about Native American culture and how to maintain OA traditions and to be respectful.
6. The Ordeal looks like hazing - The work is reasonably difficult, but not more than they can handle, and certainly nothing more than they would do during regular OA service as a member. Food is scan, but more than enough to meet dietary needs. Frankly, Ordeal taste pretty good too. Silence during ordeal portion, I cant see how that is hazing, in fact Elangomats go through every bit of Ordeal with the candidates, some Elangomats serve multiple times. All members go silent when candidates are in the area. Nothing abut Ordeal is meant to embarass, harass, belittle or abuse.
7. Looks like what we tell the scouts they cannot do - secret organization, hazing, exclusion etc. - Nothing is secret, parents can and do attend Ordeal, see hazing above, and OA could not be exclusionary if it wanted, primarily non-OA members are the ones that elect members to OA.

That would absolutely make sense. The accounting cost alone would be a significant savings for BSA. One check vs hundreds of thousands of different payments! Smart move on both side part.

I was indeed referring to the end of the Varsity program, not the LDS Church's withdrawal.

That said, the only Varsity units I have ever seen are LDS, but I am sure non LDS Varisity Team exist. But there are so few Teams as opposed to other unit types, any large scales losses were bound to have an impact on the program continuing.

I received the info via email and dont have a link. I assumed the info was more widespread or I would have expounded more.

Does anyone have any insight as to why the increase is not being applied to LDS sponsored units?

And I don't mean speculation, I mean has anyone heard anything official, more or less, as to why those units are excluded from the increase.

It was pretty evident with the LDS Church pulling out of Varsity Scouting would come to an end. I just didn't think it would be this year. Varsity Scouts is no longer a program effective 12/31/17.

According to this earlier article, he was working on Camping merit badge and this Introduction to Backpacking course was part of that?

 

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/texas/article/Boy-scout-who-died-on-West-Texas-hiking-trip-was-11233898.php

Very sad story, prayers with the family and his fellow scouts.

I was wondering about the hike myself. The only thing I can think of is the hike with a 1000 foot rise in elevation. I have limited experience in West Texas, but from what I remember it would be tough to find an elevation change of that magnitude in a 5 mile hike. I only remember complete flatness.

Regardless, it is a truly sad story.

It is disappointing to hear that view of OA. As an "old" Arrowman I hope we can change that perspective.

There is so much more that OA can be, and is in some lodges. Arrowmen provide important service for keeping up Summer camps and high adventure bases, as well as helping conduct National Jamboree, Camporee and other scouting events. They get to experience NOAC, Conclaves, Fellowship and banquets. They conduct ceremonies for scouts and Webelos that can provide memories that will last a lifetime. They promote camping and teach scouting skills to young scouts. They get to compete in quest games, ceremonies, dance and drum. They have Leadership training opportunities that are some of the best. They get to experience high adventure bases in a way no other scout can. The get to learn to produce newsletters and websites and provide valuable guides about where to go camping for local troops.

From personal experience I know it is very satisfying to see trails we cut and structures we built still in use 30 plus years later. Not to mention the friends I made back then and new ones I continue to make today. As adult leader it also some of the most rewarding experiences to get help Scouts have the kind of OA experience that I had all those years ago.

I understand the SM wanting to have his SPL there, but I am not on board with removing him. I think that sends the wrong message more than the SPL not being there.

If they scouts see a good SPL that is active and doing the job, and he is removed, then what message does that send?

What do the other scouts think about the SPL's performance? Have there been issues in their minds? Do they support him? Could be that the SM is reflecting reflecting the youth's concerns, though I don't think he is handling it right if he is.

Also, it does not seem very boy-led. In the end, the SM may need to remove leader that is failing in his job, but that should be an absolute least recourse. And it should have been proceeded with a great deal of mentoring before it ever came to that. And frankly, sometimes you have to let the boys fail, as long as it isn't endangering their safety or violating BSA policy.

Some other thoughts.

• If you son has taken ILST or NYLT (or the Scoutmaster has taken Wood Badge) then he knows that the SPL cannot do it alone. There is a balloon game in ILST (Role Balancing - Ballon Toss) that demonstrates that delegating is not only an option, but is an necessity for a well run troop.
• The Oath and Law applies to adults also. The SM might want to examine his stance in that light.
• Is missing either of these events really going to change much? Will missing a scouting event have a negative impact on an otherwise good scouting experience? Will missing one church event, cause him not to move closer to God? I am just not sure either of these events warrants putting extra weight on a young man that knows he is losing his mother. It seems like everyone involved could find a compromise or satisfactory solution.
• I have read what you want, what the SM wants, but no where have I seen you state what your son wants.
• Knowing what he really wants may be a hard thing for you, and even him, to truly know. I lost both parents as a teen. My mother suddenly in my early teens, my father, in my late teens, after a long fight with cancer. Anything he asked of me trumped anything else, because I knew I wouldn't have him much longer. My father rarely asked me do do things, because he knew where my head was, in that I wanted to make him happy, and he didn't want to put that burden on me. My problem was, if I even suspected there was something my father wanted me to do, I made sure i did it.  I have zero regrets mind you, but your son is in a place that he probably isn't thinking about what he wants, or even his obligations. He knows he is losing his mother, and I am sure he is scared, so anything he can do to make her happy he will gladly do. As you have stated to him, you want him to decide. But I am not sure that is really fair on him, he knows what you and your wife want.

You are not confusing me ItsBrian, I am just old and forgetful!

@@HelpfulTracks, we know from @@ItsBrian's other thread that these are not funds "in excess" of the project budget. The gift cards are in effect a conditional grant. A low-tech grocer could have easily said, "I will give you up to $175 for every dollar that someone in your troop spends at my store this week."

 

My rule-of-thumb with any gift card: liquidate ASAP. That includes to the beneficiary, if possible. They can claim the gift cards for the equivalent in cash or the direct purchase of the materials for the project. If at the end of the day the scout holds excess cash, he can give it to the beneficiary to spend however they please. Everybody wins.

 

FWIW - I am also the same with coffee punch cards. I tell the owner, "If you see me here more than you can stand, pull me a shot gratis, or give your staff a bonus. Just don't make me carry another piece of paper."

Thanks qwazse, I missed that in the other post. Not being sure what the status was, is the reason I pointed out two paths, one if they are excess and another if they are not. I have never liquidated a card like that so I am not sure what the process is or if they would even allow it, just looking for creative ways ot get what he needs from what he has.

Lol, no worries guys. I don't live and die by my up or down votes. But I appreciate your concern non the less.

The bottom line is that some SM's do not understand what OA is, what it does, or how it can benefit their troop. Others see it as a detriment to their troop, thinking it pulls boys away from their troop just as they are starting to turn into leaders.

As a Lodge we have been working hard to make sure we have a presence at non-OA events and are visible and willing to talk to SM's and scouts about OA. We worked the recent Eclipse event at our council, we show up at round tables and camporees (beyond just doing tap outs). We do crossovers and help packs coordinate with troops. We do camp promotions, high adventure promotions and take every opportunity to teach Scouting skills.

Most importantly we make sure our Arrowmen know their first obligation is too their unit, and that they are going back to their unit and demonstrating what OA has done for them, teaching and leading other scouts and talking about OA.

We are also talking to SM's, particularly those that are not members of OA, about their responsibility is in the election process. OA is an honor society, the SM should be looking for the scouts that best live the Oath and Law, not just the basic minimum requirement of camping days/nights and rank. As an SM you should be approving scouts that live the Oath and Law and who show Scout Spirit, and are willing and eager to serve. Those are the scouts that are most likely to take OA seriously and return to their troop to teach what they have learned in OA and become a benefit to their troop.

Adults coming up with last minute stuff interfered with those plans.

My gut tells me that doesn't sound like boy-led. But, I could be wrong. If not, then perhaps some adults need to take a step back.

I agree your son handled it very well, you should be proud!

I agree I would've handled it the same way. I would actually have him follow-up with parents saying that they can finish it with your council's merit badge counselors. Merit badges aren't the troop responsibility. Great if your troop does have times where they focus on a merit badge (mine does sometimes too). But, parents need to understand if they don't finish it it's the scout's responsibility, not the parents.

Outstanding answer and you are very correct. I would say that since these appear to be parents of recently crossed over scouts, then there is an opportunity for a gentle and friendly learning experience for the adults. They may not realize that one of the difference between Cub and Boy Scouting is the scouts responsibility to pursue merit badges on their own and to not have them spoon fed to them.  The PLC /Troop provided an opportunity for the scouts to learn and gain an interest. From that point, the is the responsibility of the individual scout to work the MB.

I'm not sure what your project is, but funds raised above the needed amount should go to the project beneficiary. So if these are in excess of your needs ask the beneficiary what they want you to do with them. If it is a church they could apply it towards a food kitchen.

If you need the funds for the project, see what else the grocery store offers. Some sell gift cards to places like Lowe's, Target, and Amazon. Perhaps you could purchase those with your donation, if it would help with the project.

You could also see about transferring it to your troop in exchange for whatever you need for your project. They will always have needs for food for CoH, outings, and donations to food kitchens.

Those are some good lessons you have learned.

Since you are already into your project, you may not find these helpful, but others following you might.

• Choose something that you are passionate about to work on - if you love what you are doing it will be easier to drive through the tough parts
• Start thinking about your project early. Having some solid ideas before you even hit Life is a good thing. You should not start working it though. wait until you hit Life and get approval.
• What you end up doing may not be your 1st, 2nd or even 10th idea. Don't stress about it, you will figure it out.
• If you ar 15 or 16 don't put it off. You will end up being rushed at the end. If you are a little younger you can wait a bit, but not too long.

For where you are now...

• You absolutely should not do it ALL on your own. A big part of your Eagle project is about leadership and planning. Get advice, opinions, feedback..... but you need to take all of the advice and turn it into a project. Learning to delegate task is also part of leadership.
• Planning - you need to think about every aspect of the project (and it looks like you are doing so). Little things matter. Think about not just what needs to be done, but how it is going to be done, who is doing what, what they will need (including food and water), think about what will make the project fail and have a contingency plan. Think about how to mitigate possible problems. And record all of that in your notes and in the plan.
• As for parents paying for everything.... remember a Scout is thrifty. Think about what things in your project you can do without spending money or as least not as much money. See if you can build or make something you might otherwise buy. For example, a construction site or lumber yard may have wood scraps that you can use. Try getting donations where you can but also consider a fund raiser to help pay for what you need. While your parents may be able to pay for it, it says a lot to your EBOR if you made it happen without their needing to fund it.
• Relax and enjoy it. Sure there is a lot to do, but don't let it stress you out. Tackle each problem and move on to the next. This is a once-in-a-lifetime event so you should enjoy it too.

Good luck and have fun!

Not sure what the issue is.   Pioneering is primarily a merit badge, designed for a scout (most are targeted at a 12 year old) to experience.   Not sure how setting up a training program is going to drive a need to go higher, bigger, etc.   High COPE elements by design need to meet ACCT standards for design, installation and operations.  Asking laymen to do something like this is actively discouraged.    Please see the COPE section of the GTSS.  

 

And if you would like to review the risk assessment documentation (found in 680-009 http://scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-009.pdfor 680-026 http://www.scouting.org/filestore/healthsafety/pdf/680-026.pdf) on your own you will also find out that relying on training and procedures is low on the hierachy of controls.   Wouldn't really be applicable to the OP vision of success that would be training.           

I have been rather busy and not able to reply as quickly as I would have liked, but this thread seems to have taken on a life of it's own.

@@RichardB  - Pioneering is not primarily merit badge, it is an activity. An activity that excites Scouts and gets/keeps them engaged. Is camping primarily a merit badge? Is first aid? Is citizenship, orienteering, hiking etc.?

It is also disappointing to see the concept that we are programming most merit badges to be targeted to 12 a year old, it is no wonder we are loosing our older Scouts if that is the path that has been chosen.

I am not looking for training to drive higher, bigger pioneering. I am listening to our Scouts who want to build higher and bigger, and looking to create training that will meet their needs while maintaining an environment that meets reasonable safety guidelines.

As for laymen, I have run into some very capable laymen in Scouting, including engineers, project manager, construction foremen, military officers and more.

Thank you for the documentation, but I would argue that based on that documentation the idea of training Scouters is very much a part of the ERM program is advocating.

 Eagle dude, please enlighten me I'm interested to know where you found such designs in the program of the BSA?   Really, not joking - I'd like to know.   

 

Now your examples appear to be from accross the pond.  And several, have some pretty significant fall exposure.   Opinion, they wouldn't have made it past a risk assessment by a competent or qualified group.  If your not familiar, Scouting in the UK requires a written risk assessment for all activities.    In some parts of the US those structures could be considered amusement devices, many of which would require state licensing and inspection.  Not sure they would pass that test either.  

 

I'd also wonder where did all that base material come from.  Most camps I'm familiar with really wouldn't want folks choping down trees to make a pioneer project each week from their natural resources.   

 

Finally, the folks gearing up for the WSJ have some great risk assessment tools and staff who know how to use them.  Very confident there is a plan.      

Materials are actually very easy to find.  Twice in the last 6 months people that know my involvement in Scouting have offered material that was being cleared for construction.

I would also be curious what is different in UK Scouting is in regards to pioneering. Since they too are doing risk assessments but are still appear to be building structures that we are asking about, what is different? Are they experiencing significantly more injuries and deaths, are they training Scouters to do assessments and mitigation? Are they ignoring their own rules?

Folks, it's 2017.   Not 1937 or 1996.   The program of the BSA is updated from time to time.    The OP has been asked and answered, if YOU would like to build these giant devices, feel free to do so, but please don't call it Scouting.   

BSA program is updated from time to time. Here are Scouters asking for an update in training programs.

BSA trains Scouters for COPE, shooting sports, swimming sports, and more. They are embracing ATV riding and pistol shooting. Clearly there are larger structures that CAN be built with the proper assessments, what I am talking about is expanding, through training, to teach and certify Scouters in the technical issues of sound pioneering, to do quality risk assessments and mitigation.

Yes sir. I do apologize. I apologize for attempting to teach your son that trustworthy is the first in the Scout Law, I apologize for my opinion it is first for a reason. I apologize for attempting to instill in your son that helpful ,friendly, courteous, kind, obedient cheerful, and reverent all deal with being respectful in some manner. I apologize for hoping that you and your son know that Oath really means one will their best to be helpful to others and obey the Scout Law at all times. I apologize for working diligently to help you build a young man of character. And lastly, as an Eagle Scout, I apologize for believing that you, as an Eagle Scout, would understand this better than most.

That is my snarky inner self answer. Of course I would not say it that way, but try to take the high road. But I wouldn't apologize for doing my job as a leader, unless of course I felt I had stepped out of line, but doesn't appear to be the case here.

As a trainer, and Eagle Scout, it baffles me that some of the most difficult to train are too often Eagle Scouts. Though by now I should be accustomed to it.