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23 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

I remember badgering two ASMs because I really wanted to know if there would be opportunities for my son to get some cooking stuff checked off at a campout, because he needed some cooking stuff signed off, and there are only so many campouts, so if he wasn't able to cook and have the right opportunities at the camp in the spring, he might have to wait until summer camp or another time.  I hoped that he would get a chance to do the cooking stuff.   The first answer I got from the first ASM was vague.  He is a cooking MB counselor and he's been around forever and so he probably gave a glossed over answer when I was looking for reassurance on the details, so I asked another ASM more point-blank -- will these cooking skills be specifically covered because I'm worried about it.  The ASM said yes, and said that of course it's up to whether the scouts do the skills, and I said, yes, I just want to make sure the opportunity is there.  Note that an adult does all the grocery shopping for our Troop and it doesn't sound exactly like patrol cooking but I'm not there so I don' t know exactly whats' going on.

This one paragraph, I believe, is a large part of the problem in many Scouters minds, and why you see so many negative reactions from them.

badgering two ASMs because - every minute an ASM/SM spends with you is is a minute he does not spend with the youth. Not to mention badgering gets old.....and why are you asking rather than your son?

I really wanted to know if there would be opportunities for my son - you wanted to know, not your son wants to know. What is important to the ASM/SM is what your son wants out of Scouting not what mom or dad think their son wants/needs to get out of Scouting.

get some cooking stuff checked off at a campout, because he needed some cooking stuff signed off - Get stuff signed off, the bane of ASM/SM's - it's not about learning, it is about getting stuff signed off, because the youth need stuff signed off. Again it is about getting stuff signed off to check another box on a requirement towards a goal the Scout may not even care about. Scouts want to have fun and learn cool stuff. Sometimes, usually later rather than sooner, the Scout may want to do advancement. That is when the ASM/SM starts to become more concerned about advancement.  Unfortunately, a lot of the advancement push I see is by adults long before the youth care. In fact the adult push is, in my opinion, one of the main reasons I see youth pushing back on advancement.  I have watched too many youth flounder under the pressure from mom and dad, to only flourish once the parents backed off and gave the Scout space.

if he wasn't able to cook and have the right opportunities at the camp in the spring, he might have to wait until summer camp or another time.  I hoped that he would get a chance to do the cooking stuff - so, he may have to wait. If waiting bothers him, he should talk to the ASM/SM about how else he fulfill that requirement if he really doesn't want to wait until camp.

 The first answer I got from the first ASM was vague.  He is a cooking MB counselor and he's been around forever and so he probably gave a glossed over answer when I was looking for reassurance on the details - more likely his answer was vague because it was not your son coming to ask him, it was you. One of the primary reason for merit badges are so the youth interact with adults other than their parents. When parents start asking me specifics about merit badges for their son, I tell them to have their son come talk to me. Now, if they want to understand the mechanics of being a merit badge counselor, I will gladly teach them (in fact I do that as part of my district and council positions). Your son, not you, need to be the one working on the details, finding out what needs to be done and asking their MB counselor the questions.

The ASM said yes, and said that of course it's up to whether the scouts do the skills, and I said, yes, I just want to make sure the opportunity is there. - it is up to the Scout to get it done, in fact making sure the opportunity is there is also up to the Scout. Scouts plan the program, and when they set up program during annual planning, and outing planning, the ASM/SM's are whispering in their ear "did you think about x and y?" But even then it is up to the Scouts to plan out those activities. Once the Scouts make a plan, it is up to the adult leaders to make sure that details the Scouts cannot accomplish are handled.

@WisconsinMomma, you have caught a lot of flack on this board that I do not think you deserved, but you have also made a number of comments that illustrate exactly why many "old school" leaders get frustrated. I, like most leaders I am sure, am happy to discuss, explain and even teach parents on any number of Scouting topics. But the moment the parents vision differs from the Scouts vision of what they want, the parents words fall on deaf ears. Even when the parent and Scout are in sync, the moment a parent starts doing the things the Scout should be doing I push back. The Scouting experience is for the youth, not the parent. On that point I do not and will not waiver except in extreme circumstances.

To those parents I would reply:

The amount of protection and oversight a child needs is directly and inversely proportional to the development of maturity. (Notice I did not say age).

As both child and parents grow, there is no longer the need to change the child's diapers, bath them, spoon feed them or rock them to sleep. Both the child and the parent have matured beyond that. At some point we mature past picking out their cloths, holding their hand when they cross the street and cutting their food up for them. by the time youth are Boy Scout age, they are becoming very independent little creatures, that is good and normal. At this age, constant oversight is not needed for those youth or by the parents of those youth. Doing so only stunts their growth. Can the child's safety be 100% guaranteed if they are not under constant observation? No. But, their safety is not 100% guaranteed even if they are observed 100% of the time.

Perhaps in this case the maturity level is not on par with their peers (in this case either the child, the parents or both), and that is okay also. But that delay in maturing should not hold the others back. That is part of Scouting, it is as safe as can reasonably be expected and still allow children to mature into adults. We will be moving forward in the regard. When you are ready to join us you are welcome. In the mean time we march on towards becoming better Scouts and Scouters.

Is that a bit harsh? Maybe, but adults show they are maturing as parents when they allow their children to take more and more responsibility and accountability. The children can ONLY mature when the adults do that. One or two or even an handful of Scouts/parents cannot be allowed to hold the rest of the group back by insisting that the program be scaled back to fit their needs.

4 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

LOL!! Not the one I had in mind, but it will do.

For some reason Dark Suckers come to mind.

Awesome video!

I recently saw Terry Fossum speak. He is an Eagle Scout, successful business man and winner of the realty survival show Kicking and Screaming.

He thanked every Scouter in the room for what we do, because he said it was Scouting that saved his life. He and his brother grew up in a gang riddled neighborhood, they lost their father at a young age and were even told they would not survive living in that neighborhood long enough to grow up. He credited Scouting for teaching him, the adults for leading, caring about and protecting him. Both went on the earn their Eagle. Both have been very successful. In fact his brother fell in love with astronomy because of Scouting. He went on to become an Astronaut and even sent a message to Scouts from the space station.

I got into Scouting because I was asked and thought it would be a great way to bond with my son.

While I have no illusions of grandeur that I have saved anyone's life, I do hope that I can be a positive role model for the youth. Maybe because of something I have done sometime down the road one of the youth will make better decisions and make a better life for themselves and others. That is a legacy I can be happy with.

Also, it is a heck of a lot of fun! Including camping, teaching and watching the youth grow up in so many amazing ways!

I am torn about using Eagle Scout as a recruiting tool in any regard. It is akin to a middle school coach recruiting athletes with the promise of a college scholarship. It is just not going to happen for everyone. And worse, it discounts the value of the journey.....Eagle or BUST. Eagle Scout is not one of the AIMs of Scouting, and it is only part of one of the methods.

Eagle Scout is an worth while and honorable goal and any individual earning it should be proud of that accomplishment. But it is just that, an individual goal. It is not the goal of the program. Character, citizenship and fitness are the goals (AIMs_. When Eagle Scout becomes the primary goal, then the 3 AIMs become secondary. When they become secondary, they become expendable to the primary goal. Youth, parents, CO's, units and any organization that put Eagle Scout above the AIMs of BSA, miss the point and do a disservice and even damage to the youh they supposedly serve as well as Scouting as a whole.

It is not a failure if a Scout does not earn Eagle Scout. It is a failure if the Scout does not learn character, how to be a good citizen and how to be fit. In my opinion, it is doubly a failure if a Scout earns his Eagle, but does not embody the 3 AIMs. When that happens, we have all failed that youth.

1 minute ago, Stosh said:

This is the conundrum I have always had with this forum.  All the adults, whether they are young or old are all fighting and bickering about who's calling the shots.  Well guess what, it's supposed to be the boys.  The more I get into the hands of the boys, the less I have difficulties.  I don't make it my problems and I don't ever get caught holding the bag.  If the parents get involved and try to make it their problem, they quickly learn that's not a good spot to be in because I always side, right or wrong, with the boys and their decisions.  It's always two against one against the adults.  If the boys make a bad decision and the parents are upset, I always remind them this is the place to learn, fail and grow.  After a while the parents do run out of steam and life goes back to having fun.

Stop and think about all the forum threads dedicated to bickering among the adults.  Every one of those "concerns" revolves around adult led troops.  And from where I stand, whatever decisions the boys make, it can't ever be worse than the behind the scenes bickering going on with the adults.

Amen, brother.

I have said it here before as well as in the non-virtual world.

Scouting would be so much better if we could get the adults out of it.

I say that with a bit of tongue-in-cheek because adults are needed (adult association, safety, ensure BSA policy and standards etc.), but the vast majority of the adult participation I see regularly has nothing to do with why adults need to be in the program to begin with. Mostly, I see adults doing things counter to being youth-led and counter to the Oath and Law to one degree or another.

On 12/13/2017 at 1:26 PM, WisconsinMomma said:

So, I have some frustrations with old Scouters who complain about new parents. 

So, I have some frustrations with old Scouters who complain about new parents. 

So, I have some frustrations with new parents who complain about old Scouters. 

Mostly, I have a lot of frustration with adults arguing over which of the adults is going to run (ruin) the program. The entire premise of the thread is based on what the adults are doing.

Bottom line......be youth-led, adults are there to support, guide mentor the youth, not lead, run, manage the troop. Secondly, if everyone follows the Oath and Law in everything they do, then most problems will take care of themselves. If you have adults that cannot or will not follow the Oath and Law, help them to change by leading, if you cannot lead them to change then find a new unit for your youth that values the Oath and Law.

As long as adults are focused on what some other adult is doing wrong, then they are not focused on the youth, and most like;y the youth will be focused somewhere other than Scouting.

On 12/15/2017 at 9:55 AM, an_old_DC said:

Maybe I’m thinking of a different girl and Boy Scout troop, but hasn’t the Troop Ireland tagged along with held BORs for her and submitted advancement reports that were rejected and sent back? Somebody has been telling her she “unofficially” earned ranks, right?

From the linked article:
"In fact, Sydney will soon sit in front of a board of review and ask for approval to move up the second rank of Boy Scouts, to Tenderfoot. Of course, that’ll be unofficial, too."

https://www.outsideonline.com/2196356/why-girl-wants-become-boy-scout

I am not sure if those records are being submitted to the Council, but the CO is clearly playing along with concept.

I believe she is already old to achieve Eagle, unless National decides to count previous work or waive requirements. If she isn't already too old, she will be within a matter of days.

I have seen articles with her over the last couple of years. I remember seeing articles that she had turned 16 in late Spring or early Summer. The only article I can find, at the moment doing a quick search, was published 6/28/17 and stated she was 16 years old at the time.

If she started today, should could not achieve Tenderfoot before January 16th, She could not reach First Class before February 15th, Star before June 15th, Life on Dec 15th and Eagle on June 15th. So assuming the article was correct that on June 28th she was already 16, she has at best, less than 2 weeks before it is impossible for her to attain Eagle.

While I support the new policy, I have never supported Miss Ireland because of the arguments she has used. The initial articles focused on her desire to get Eagle and how it looked on a college resume. I have never liked it when any Scout's first and primary focus is to attain Eagle solely as a resume item.

Later stories focused on leadership and training, but the leadership and training opportunities she said she was missing were available in both Venturing and Scouts Canada. This story has felt all along as if the skills and opportunities she could gain from scouting was far far less important that having something she could stick on a resume. Perhaps, I am wrong, but if so the media has done her a injustice and I have not seen her or her parents racing to correct that injustice.

20 hours ago, bsaggcmom said:

Different note - spring recruiting around here for Cubs is in May/June. 

I heard that was at least one of the recommendations sent up to national. Respectively, female units in place by early 2019, maybe even late 2018, to be prepared for AOL Crossover.

Not sure of the outcome yet.

1 hour ago, scoutldr said:

The ignorance being exhibited in this thread is incredible.  

Please, do expound.

Three camps that I am aware of do not provide anything, nor do they allow running of cords for safety reasons. It was the same for Jamboree. 

Adults that require CPAPs are on their own to manage their needs. 

Frankly, I would not be in favor of camps redirecting funds away from programming for youth to these type accommodations.  

Interesting. My 15 year old SPL son prefers to, and has on several occasions, handle these type issues himself. In fact he sees it as his obligation.

On multiple occasions he has respectfully addressed adult interference in the Troop. He is pretty good at redirecting rather than just saying no to them. Usually he can come up with a solution on his own, but will sometimes seek advice.

I can see him embracing the parents desire to go hiking by recommending they take their younger Scouts on several patrol hikes so that they will be prepared for the more challenging AT hike that WILL take place as planned.

teach them and turn them loose and they will do a pretty darn good job.

I would respectfully submit that if older Scouts are wiling to throw in the towel so fast, and drop out of the hike, it is because they are used to being adult led already.

I am not sure if this is an update or somehow I have managed to avoid it, but this morning there is a new mobile interface. 

I don’t care for it at all. It was much easier to navigate the forums via the desktop interface.

I looked for “full site” link, but couldn’t find it. If it it exist can someone point me toward it (I’m not able to access a computer atm). If it does not exist, can you please add it. 

Thanks!

'Cause you have to sew them on.

 

No choice now.  we have a new council name - for months.

 

However, new CSPs are arriving in the Scout Shop under 100 a week.   Great business plan.

 

So off to ScoutStuff, where CSPs are not listed by alphabetical - or any other discernible -  order.      And you find after searching six at a time in random order that the old, obsolete CSP is for sale, as are [at a $.50 discount] the CSPs for the two councils that went away, but NOT the one with the new council name.  

You can search by Council name. Oddly enough partial name search works better than full name in many cases.

Ummm, perhaps I am mistaken but I always considered civil as in civil disobedience to reference to citizens rather than civility. Like civil air patrol or civil air defense.

However back to the main point of the OP, I think that he would be most concerned with whether the scout movement was continuing to serve the youth members. Whether scouts are being given the opportunity to lead, whether there are the actual places for them to do so (eg campsites and the like), as Ian said I think he would be deeply concerned with the state of the environment and would be championing scouting as a force for good in terms of looking after it. I think he would be deeply troubled by the state of mental health among young people in the western world.

I agree.

Aaah, the thread in which we project our values onto BP

 

Actually my thought was right the opposite. Given what we know of BP, I was thinking about how he would apply his values in today’s Scouting world.

Stosh, I asked our SE and the BSA Store Manager about this issue of old uniform parts last Tuesday, and they both said without hesitation that mixing and matching is perfectly OK. 

 

Besides, nothing is finer than frustrating the Uniform STASI over relatively minor issues. 

I was told the same by both professionals and long time volunteers. The specific reason it came up was Scouts/Scouters wearing old caps, red berets and red top socks & garter socks.

It might be that some of that detail was intentionally glossed over. In the early days, particularly in England (and I imagine the US too) troops and patrols were popping up organically.

So who gets credit for being first?

Does the Troop that sprang up on its own, emulating English Troops, get credit for being the first or the first one after BSA incorporated? Same for the first SM and Boy Scout. Not to mention several organizations were merging to become BSA, so does the first (if it was even known) Son's of Daniel Boone or first Woodcraft Indians get the honor of being the first?

I can see the founders sitting around a table deciding to avoid that problems that could possibly cause for the fledgling organization.

One thing I remember reading and it stuck with me because I thought it was so ironic...even though Scouting in England predates BSA, B-P did not incorporate for a few years, 1912 if memory serves. So BSA actually incorporated before Scouting did in England.

Given all the issues discussed about Scouting that seem to ruffle feathers of both Scouters and non-Scouters, I wonder which would be the ones that would concern B-P the most.

I would not call myself a B-P historian, but I have read a decent amount by and about him, and in my opinion topics that seem to get the most attention wouldn’t be at the top of his list of concerns.

My guess is less emphasis on outdoor programs, poor use of patrol method, interference of youth-led philosophy and decline in membership, among other things, would be a bigger concern to B-P than gay Scouts/Scouters, woman leaders, female Scouting units and professional Scouts.

What issues do you think would be at the top of B-P’s concern list?

I was not aware of that. Why not in Citizenship in Nation?

Two requirements do lend themselves to covering MLK and the civil rights movement , one about monuments and one about speeches. In the end it gives the Scout an option of what to focus on. If I dove in and gave it some thought, there might be other requirements that could cover civil disobedience.

I can’t of the top of my head think of any opportunities in CitC or CitW, but there may be.

Civil disobedience is not covered, but IMHO it should be.

It may not be a requirement but we can and should teach it. One of the very few reasons I like MB classes is the ability to cover material not otherwise covered. We cannot add t the requirements, but adding to the teaching is not verboten.......yet.