HelpfulTracks

14 hours ago, EmberMike said:

Why is someone that is advocating for something she believes in a "complainer" in your book? Just because she (and me and a lot of other Scouters) believe something that you don't? 

Anyone is able to apply for an extension for Eagle. Any other girl who joins the program can do the same. 

Do I think this girl is exceptional and maybe deserves a little more consideration in this matter? Sure. She put herself out there, endured harsh criticism and ridicule over this. For something that all she stood to gain at the end of it all was the right to join the organization. That's pretty brave in my book. It also was done without the expectation that the policy would ever change. It just so happens that it is changing while she's still of scouting age. 

Also keep in mind she's not 20 and asking for this. She would actually still be youth age at the time she could join. She just needs an extension on the age-out policy, something that plenty of boys get, too. If she isn't allowed to at least apply for the extension like anyone else, that's wrong. 

That would be opening a massive Pandora's box.

As far as I have seen extension are given for medical reasons or for special needs Scouts, a date range for a policy change does not fit the spirit of the extension rule. Exceptions are given on a case by case basis and need a darn good reason.

Even if BSA concluded that the policy change IS a darn good reason, which I do not think it is, and doubt BSA will either, that would set up the situation where any girl 17 years 364 days old or less could ask for an extension. Denying the extension to some and not others would be a potential legal nightmare. Dozens, maybe hundreds or even thousands of girls litigating for the same exemption. At a tipping point BSA almost certainly would be financially forced to decide any girl who joined before age 18 has an automatic 2 year extension. You then have bunch of young men who want to same extension. Many more that just missed it asking for an extension. Running down the rabbit hole you could find many more reasons that could cause litigation and take money away from the program.

Set a date policy and stick to it. Having one high profile legal action is much better than a possible onslaught of many more.

If it were my daughter I would feel horrible for her, but I have taught my children that not everything goes your way.

Yes, I have seen several part-time professional jobs crop up. Though not all of them are office jobs, in fact, many have been in the field supporting DE's or special activities. Most I have seen have been filled by very active volunteer Scouters and/or retirees. Which I like, because they have a feel for what volunteers pain points are.

I consider myself very fortunate to have worked with a number of outstanding Scouting Professionals. Some were rock stars in my book. I have met a few here and there that I would like to jerk a knot in, but not many.

They are not paid on nearly par with their private sector counter parts, they work extremely long hours and weekends. If they want to advance, it almost certainly means picking up and moving somewhere else, possibly across the country. None of them (at least the ones I have known) do it for the pay. They do it because they believe in BSA's mission. In fact I know several that are volunteers on top of being professionals. Though since most people know they are pro's they are frequently treated as such and are approached with "day job" issues even when volunteering.

I cringe when I hear people bad mouth them because I have worked closely with them and it is not a job I envy.

I had a conversation with a professional last fall about the pension change, I cannot remember all the details but I do remember him saying that some were happy with the change and others were not, and it was tightly connected to where they were in their Scouting career. IF I remember correctly the pension changes were kicked off in response to having to deal with the 2016 Rule that would have doubled the white collar exemption amount. Before the courts reversed that Rule, BSA and councils were scrambling to figure out how to cope with the expected cost increases. In some cases staff positions had already been eliminated, and things like this pension change were too far down the pike to reverse.

I had to go back and look up a few things when I read this:

“It is outrageous and embarrassing that the Scouts will ban local young women from participating, particularly as we are the host country,” he said. “Scouts need to be a certain age and rank to attend a Jamboree. With the Boy Scouts allowing girls into the program very soon, it is unclear why they continue to refuse admission to Sydney.”

To me it looks like Mr Ireland is using the Jamboree as a reason to go ahead and allow HIS daughter (and presumably ALL girls) to start Scouting now. But the next NSJ is not for more than 3-1/2 years in 2021, so any girl that started in 2019 would have plenty of time to reach First Class by the Jamboree.

So I assume he is referring to the WSJ in 2019. Depending when in 2019 BSA4G starts, there will likely be enough time for them to earn First Class and get registered.

His argument struck me as, at best, disingenuous. So I wanted to go back a validate what I remembered. Anyway you look at it WSJ does not come into the equation with his daughter. First. girls were at the 2017 NSJ and will be at the 2019 WSJ as Venturers. Second, according to multiple articles, Sydney is already 16 and a would be a Junior in High School as of now. Based on those articles she turned 16 sometime in early or mid Summer. So she would be too old to attend the WSJ as a youth. But she could apply to be on staff as part of the International Service Team.

So his argument is BSA should open Scouting up to his daughter NOW so all those other girls can go to Jamboree. The more her father speaks, the more convinced I am that this is nothing more than an attempt to put one more trophy on his daughters shelf.

On 12/28/2017 at 7:10 PM, HelpfulTracks said:

I will query my 16 yr old Life Scout and my 13 yr old soon to be Venturer (and possibly a Scout) as well and get back to the thread. Though I have discussed it with both I will ask the in reference to this thread.

As stated I asked my children. It has been a few days so I will paraphrase and hopefully get the idea across.

I started by asking what they thought about suspending the time in rank requirement for Miss Ireland.  Almost in unison (one made a statement, the other a rhetorical question) time is a requirement.

Me: But she has spent time working the requirements.
Son: But not as a Scout.
Me: But she was not allowed to become a Scout
Daughter: I am not allowed to be a Venturer yet, but I have done most of the requirements, does that mean I get to count ALL of the stuff I did already?
Son: Cool, by that standard all I really need to do is complete another project and I can get the Summit award, because I have done almost all of it before I joined Venturing.

I changed the argument a little at this point to what if they just went ahead and opened it up early for her. My daughter was thrilled as long as they opened up for ALL girls, not just her or a select few. My son was good with opening it up now as long as it was ready. He pointed out that BSA says they are not ready and he would rather they wait if there was a chance that the program would be "messed up". He would rather they wait and get it right.

It was a long conversation with a lot of back and forth but there were two really great nuggets.

The first was them using my own word on me. They hate it for her, but "Life isn't fair, and it's time you (she) learned that." I tried ot turn that around on them by saying your right, so they should just go ahead and let her in now, life would have to be unfair to them, not Miss Ireland. The reply was that makes a lot of sense, but unfair to thousands of current Scouts, past Scouts who missed their Eagle and possibly thousands of other girls will come, just so we can be fair to ONE. They didn't think that made a lot of sense.

This one was my favorite, and one I had not thought about. A Scout is THRIFTY. My son pointed out that he is pretty sure I could pay for all of his Scouting trips, yet I still expect/require him to fund raise, wash cars, walk dogs, cut grass etc. to pay for Scouting himself, because, as I apparently often say, a Scout is thrifty and pays his (her) own way. He pointed out that he would be much more empathetic to her situation if she is indeed earning the money to travel to Canada on a regular basis to be considered active enough to earn Canada's highest Scouting award.

In short, both of my kids felt bad for her, but also felt that they just did not see a way for her to earn Eagle, with out giving her special consideration.

On 1/10/2018 at 1:54 PM, WisconsinMomma said:

As far as I can tell the request has been respectful and courteous.  Different people have different styles, some are rule followers, and some are change agents.  It's all OK.   My opinion would change if the girl or her family starts trashing the BSA and behaves poorly, but I don't think anything is wrong with a polite request either.

Per her the aforementioned article.

Her father, corporate attorney Gary Ireland, slammed the BSA for this.

“It is outrageous and embarrassing that the Scouts will ban local young women from participating, particularly as we are the host country,” he said. “Scouts need to be a certain age and rank to attend a Jamboree. With the Boy Scouts allowing girls into the program very soon, it is unclear why they continue to refuse admission to Sydney.”

That does not seem polite, courteous or respectful.

I’m likely to misquote here since I’m going from memory, but one of documents states that the Scout must be a registered Scout during the time the requirements are met.

That seems reasonable. That requirement alone would preclude Miss Ireland. 

BTW - Nationals does not approve an Eagle app before it goes to board of review. The Council registrar verifies that all the information required is on the application, and that the dates are correct. The registrar does not approve anything either.

I will query my 16 yr old Life Scout and my 13 yr old soon to be Venturer (and possibly a Scout) as well and get back to the thread. Though I have discussed it with both I will ask the in reference to this thread.

I hope today and the rest of the holiday season finds you well and that the coming year gives you great joy and ample opportunities to help the youth in your area reach their fullest potential to become healthy productive citizens with high moral character.

Good luck and God bless you!

First, JASM is appointed by SPL with the advice and approval of the SM, but he reports to the SM. He needs to be at least 16 but not yet an adult. Most importantly the youth needs to want to do that role and understand how it impacts him as a Scout.

Some boys like, some don’t. Some troops use them some don’t. 

The problem is that while a JASM is still a youth and must be treated as so for YP purposes, most of the jobs they are assigned are more inline with an ASM position. For the youth, this can get boring, be conflicting and be a negative if he prefers to hang out with his friends more. For a SM it can be a negative because the JASM is still a youth and often gets caught between wanting to be one of the boys and doing his job as JASM, which will often take him out of some of the fun. 

Thwre are pluses and minuses, it depends on the youth and the unit.

On 4/12/2014 at 7:05 PM, frankpalazzi said:

Merit badge sash. Your ECOH is and should be a troop function, not an OA function!

Not necessarily. The Eagle Scout plans his ECoH. Among the options are several that are Conducted by the OA. 

If it is an OA ECoH then the Eagle has the option of sashes (MB or OA). 

There were popular in my youth. I don’t see as many now.

10 hours ago, David CO said:

He is still subordinate to the COR. Nothing in that statement changes the chain of command.

I guess this is where I have an issue with your train of thought. These are volunteers, not employees. While technically they are subordinates, I have always viewed the Key 3 as well as the CO as a team, each with areas of responsibility and authority.

I have witnessed programs severely weakened, to the point of ending a some cases, due the desire for control over a program, by COR, SM, and CC’s. Rather than work together, even when they disagree, they often work behind someone’s back or attempt to dictate their vision.

In any organization; be it volunteer, business or military, when those with authority begin to micromanage, bad things happen. Certainly hold them accountable, to clearly defined goals, but let them do their job without interference.

One would hope that the CO has a benevolent attitude where helping the youth is its first priority. If the ones running the program, then leave them alone.

36 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Is Mr. Smith being disloyal to the pack's (and Troop 1's) CO?  Should he be "fired" as a DL for his younger son's den?

No he not. He is looking out for the best interest of his Scout. I would argue CM he has that obligation for all of “his” Scouts.

30 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

I only know what I saw at my Council store: Order of the Arrow Knots for Ordeal, Brotherhood, or Vigil members. You had to show your ID to get them. If this is a rogue uniform move I do not know.

Yes, in fact those are expressly verboten (read Officially discouraged) by the OA. Any difference in level is not allowed (read Officially discouraged) in flaps. The only items that can be distinctive to level are the sash and for vigil a device on the dangle.

I have seen temporary patches like mini sashes,  I am not sure if those are approved, discouraged or if National just turns a blind eye.

7 hours ago, David CO said:

I have a very different speech that I gave to all of my athletes and scouts. I told them that, in 5 years time, if any of them still cared one iota about any of the victories or losses they experienced in school, I would be very disappointed. 

All youth awards should have an expiration date on them, for those who get them as well as for those who don't. 

I have read this to my Scouts, athletes and other youth on numerous occasions.

“This is the beginning of a new day. God has given me this day to use as I will. I can waste it or use it for good. What I do today is very important because I am exchanging a day of my life for it. When tomorrow comes, this day will be gone forever, leaving something in its place I have traded for it. I want it to be gain, not loss — good, not evil. Success, not failure in order that I shall not forget the price I paid for it.”

I believe we should not live in the past or try and relive the glory days of youth. However, every victory and loss, every success and failure, each trial and tribulation is a stone in the foundation of who we are.

I would urge youth to keep their wins and losses in perspective but remember and care about the things that make them who the are.

7 hours ago, an_old_DC said:

 

OA knots? What do they signify?

DSA, Distinguished Service Award, is the only OA knot I have ever heard of, but it almost as rare as the Silver Buffalo. You won’t see many of those around.

it is awarded for distinguished service at the sectional level or higher, and usually represents national service.

Good looking knot, with red background and white knot.

10 hours ago, David CO said:

I don't think boys should view advancement as either a goal or an achievement. It should be something that just happens sometimes during the course of a journey, like finding a really neat shiny stone while strolling down a path.

Then there be no Eagle Scouts. At least not in the age of the Eagle project.

One may stumble across the shiny stones called merit badges, maybe even the positions of responsibility, but not the Eagle project.

The project, by nature, requires a plan and thus a goal. No goal, no plan. No plan, no project. No project, no Eagle.

Besides, as teachers, we should be teaching our youth to set goals and strive to achieve them. If not, then they are in for a rude awakening as adults. 

Must their goal be Eagle Scout? No, but if that is their goal, we should not discourage them, or dictate what their goals should be. 

As for Eagle Scout being and achievement, it is. Just like a hiking merit badge, the mile swim, overcoming their fear of something and so much more.

6 hours ago, Tampa Turtle said:

But Tracky saying " self-proclaimed liberal friends" label does not really help that discussion. The discussion cuts across many different philosophical (economic, moral, religious, historical) axes. I taught a sustainability Class at a university 20 years ago and was anticipating being a MBC on this one but man..but BSA made it so boring and there were so many potential directions to make it more interesting. In any case the word of mouth by our scouts is to stick with Environmental Science.

I don't think it was tacky at all. As I said, they describe themselves that way and are quick to remind me that they are on a different end of the political spectrum than I. Their point being that I am conservative so I do not care about the environment.

After a bit of discussion, they sometimes realize that not only do I care, I have, in many cases done far more than they themselves when it comes to protecting our shared nature. Which is to my point about the sad political state we have been in for sometime in this country. They are quick to assume and tell me that because I can conservative and they are liberal that I don't REALLY (emphasis) care about the environment like they care. Which of course is utter hogwash and in most cases measurably so.

Do not abandon your current app just yet. I have heard in back channel discussion that ScoutBook Lite will include and API that will allow syncing between some apps like TroopMaster. I am not sure if TWH will be one of them. Or if BSA will even continue that effort. But so many units use something other than SB I would be shocked if they did not get enough pressure from the masses to create such an API. 

Great article!

I am about as conservative as they come on most issues. I certainly would fall into the category of naturalist. I am not much for labels, but that is one I could live with.

I find it amusing and sometimes annoying that my self-proclaimed liberal friends are constantly on my back about the environment. I am routinely on the lakes, rivers, trails and mountains they cherish but hardly ever visit. Many brag about going out once or twice a year to clean up this or that. I just nod, knowing that on almost every outing we are doing more to help they environment they they will in a year.

Some deride me as part of the problem because I am going out into nature and "wearing it down," by visiting it. Some of them are very much in to the pristine untouched wilderness concept. When they give me a hard time, I think back to my dad taking me out into the woods and showing me all kinds of wonderful things, teaching me not just how to use it, but to respect it and take care of it.

It is sad that respect for the environment (and so many other things) have become so politicized that there is an "us and them" mentality that pretty much negates that hope of cooperating on solving problems.

Every youth that truly wants to pursue his Eagle Scout Awards should be encouraged, mentored and assisted appropriately. It should be their decision and desire that is driving it though, not the parents, SM or anyone else.

For some Scouts, Eagle is just not their goal, and that is perfectly fine. Scouting is not, and should not be, about achieving Eagle Scout. Character, citizenship (including leadership), and fitness are the goals, and what we should be trying to instill in every youth. If we do not make every effort to instill those three characteristics into Scouts, then it is our failure, not the youths, but not achieving Eagle is not a failure on the Scouts part. Most never make it, (94-98% depending on how you want to slice the numbers). But those 90%+ have hopefully learned a great deal that will help them to be a success throughout life, had experiences they may not have had otherwise and made lasting friends and memories.

I would say the only superior skills required are determination, discipline and handwork. While it may be easier for some Scouts because of an abundance of skills and smarts, Eagle Scout is not out of reach of any young man. But sitting on the coach and waiting for it to come to you will not get it done.

I do tell my Scouts I have never had an Eagle Scout tell me they regret earning their Eagle, but I have had countless others tell me they regret not getting theirs. I don't harp on that point, but I do try to get them to understand that someday the rank of Eagle may mean more to them than it does now, but it will be something they can not longer earn. I also tell them if they learn to live the Oath and Law in their every day life I am as proud of them as I would be any Eagle Scout, because that is the measure of a man, not the rank he earned as a Scout.

35 minutes ago, Cubber said:

I'm not sure if anyone is still following this thread, but I talk with the CC/COR today. For those questioning my level of respect or loyalty- please stop. It's there and he knows that.

Basically, I think he is attached to the very long continuous scouting history of this Troop and does not want to let the charter lapse and start back at zero.  So he is working to covert the many leads he has received from council this year into real scouts, and also get a few of the older scouts to reengage with the Troop and breathe some life into it. He has many experienced scouters to act as leaders should this take off. He realizes it is a long shot, but wants his last six months the council has given him to at least try.

To understand how it got here: 10 years ago there was an upset between him and the CC and CM of this pack I'm in now. They parted ways and that CM/committee took most of the cubs with them to start a new pack. They then continued to recruit the others away and hold preemptive recruiting events for new Tigers each year. It starved the CO programs of new cubs and eventually there were no more Webelos transitioning into the troop. This went on for many years. 

That explains why they only had 5 cubs when I joined. I've built it to 32, so the pack is healthy now.  But this is our first year with Webelos, and they are all first years. No second years for him. The Troop unfortunately could not wait for the feed to begin again. The last boys have Eagled and are leaving for college in the spring. 

I told him that all the pack leaders need to understand his strategy with this troop and how he wants us to support it. He has not explained that to us. We want to support him, but we need him to tell us what we are supporting and how we can help him. And he has to be realistic about how tough it is going to be to sell parents on a start up. He knows. It was a good conversation.

Hope this answers some questions and thank you all again for your guidance.

-B

Sounds like a good start.

Although other disagree, I do not consider it disloyal for you to look out for the best interest of your youth, even when that might be at odds with your CO. It is not disloyal to the CO to make sure your youth have the best Scouting career possible. If it is with the CO awesome, if it is with someone else that is great too.

I would try to get more details about the CO's plans for the troop, the leadership (SM and CC at least) and what steps are being taken to move the troop forward.

Also, Scouters have long memories and more than a few flap their gums. So I would see if the CO will give your the details of the previous dust up with the old CM and CC. The was almost certainly talk about a group leaving one CO and starting a pack elsewhere. It might be helpful for you to understand that situation so you can address it with pack and potential troop parents. Some, maybe all, will not know of the situation. But all it takes is one, that may only know some part of the story, or worse, incorrect rumors, and the job of recruiting to the troop becomes much more difficult.

Good luck!

I can only offer supposition based on having been to SBR and Philmont as a participant, but I would imagine it be much closer to working Summer Camp staff than Philmont, at least in terms of working directly with participants.

I imagine the way SBR is structured, a staff volunteer would be assigned to an area like shooting sports or or mountain biking. So they would see participants cycle through their area rather than going out on the trail with them.

If they were assigned an operational job, like working the commissary or health lodge for example, I imagine that would be similar to Philmont.

Staff off time would obviously have a different selection of activities as well.

4 hours ago, David CO said:

If this is how you feel, then you owe it to your COR to be straight with him. Your COR can then decide if he wants to have a CM who refuses to acknowledge his authority.

As a servant leader my obligation is to help instill the values of Scouting in the youth.

I have agreed to abide by the CO's rules and policies. Within that framework, my duty is to the youth not the CO.

I would question the mission of the CO that tells me that it is more important to keep a youth under their authority at the expense of helping the youth reach their full potential and growth.

That would be equivalent to a youth directory impeding a youth from going on a mission with another church or a science club adviser impeding a youth from growing their knowledge by joining an astronomy club elsewhere. If the CO's mission is about maintaining authority and growing it's interest above those it serves I think the CO has lost site of its mission or had a faulty mission to begin with.

3 hours ago, Cubber said:

My question is: does the committee chair have the right to direct us to transition to a particular troop, especially if it has no boys in it? Has anyone else run into this resistance to allowing Webelos to check out multiple troops to find their right fit?

To Direct where the you go? Absolutely not.

To ask that you consider a troop? Sure.

But the Scout needs to go where the Scout fits best. We tell that to every Webelos that visits our troop. I would much rather see a Webelos become a Scout in another troop than to drop out of Scouting because of a poor fit. Maybe joining a brand new troop would be a good opportunity for him if he wants to be a part of building something new, maybe it would not be good for him.

At the end of the day what we owe the youth outweighs what a CC wants, what a CO thinks it is owed or what any Scoutmaster thinks. It is about how to best serve the youth, not how they youth can best serve someone else.

42 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

OK guys, so now I have to decide how much of a rabble rouser to be at tonight's committee meeting.   Do I...

a) suggest the candy fundraiser as something for the PLC/Troop to consider (I would offer to coordinate if the Troop wants to pursue it).

b) suggest that the boys pick their own summer camp destination and have choices, although there is already a deposit on the 2018 summer camp venue? 

c) smile and nod

d) look for opportunities to ask - what do the boys think of that? 

e) ask what the PLC has been working on lately

Thanks for your help!

Honestly I am tired and I'm hoping for a short meeting.

d) look for opportunities to ask - what do the boys think of that? 

Anytime any adult starts talking about the program and what they Scouts want/need - 'What do the Scouts want to do/what do they think?' is my first, second and third response.

It is fine and well to ask questions, but rather than suggesting a specific fundraiser, give a prompt. For example. A Scout is thrifty, have you considered how you are going to pay for Summer camp or that white water rafting trip? Let them take the lead, they will likely fire back questions, then, if they ask for suggestions, you can give them. But they need to work for the answers, it is how they figure out what they need to do and when. If we spoon feed them suggestions, they will never start to come up with the answers on their own, let along learn to ask the questions on their own.

In many troops, the Secretary also works with and mentors the Scribe. If that is case in your troop, your scribe should be including you on the minutes he sends out after each PLC. If that is not how it is working, perhaps that is a place you can start working with the direct contact leadership to help your troop.