HelpfulTracks

A question and some general observations.

Was any reason(s) given for the policy change?

SM Conference is not just about rank. So if the young man, who is First Class or Star, is having an issue that has nothing to do with rank, then he must attend a camp out to discuss it? I am guessing the reply would be "no, this is only for rank advancement," which would be literally adding a camping element to the requirement.

Second, the SM Conference can be held prior to other requirements being complete. It is a common misunderstood and misapplied requirement that SM Conference is the last thing before BoR.  If the rule is going to be that a FC or Star Scout can only do them on camp outs, then I would urge the young many to request the the conference on the first outing after attaining FC or Star.

To paraphrase Eagledad, be tactful, putting the SM On the defensive is never a wise path.

2 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

Thanks, I walked away so I wasn't in the discussion.  He was holding his own in the conversation.   When the SM said I can't sign this because she didn't have the paperwork , he told her he sent it to her a month ago.  Then he said, I brought an extra copy, she said where is he going...  He came back with his documentation and she was clearly upset that he the paperwork and started telling him that he was making up the hours.    He remained respectful the entire time but you could see he was fuming.  She just blatently signed off on other scouts without batting an eye.  One even told me he had no idea what the paper was for.

I am just fuming about how this went down.  I am so tired of the power trip she tries to exert over the boys.

At this point he will have to benefit the Ship vs. the Troop because of her.  It is sad.

What paper work? If it is the initial meeting then the signature is about the SM having an discussion, no paperwork required. If the merit badge is complete, and signed off by the MB counselor, that is the paperwork. 

That was a rhetorical question.

Sadly, I am not surprised. Quality Scouters appear to be in the minority. At one end you have those that disregard all process/policies and will sign off on/allow anything, at the other are those that try to rule with an iron fist, make capricious decisions and add to the burden placed on Scouts. Neither have the faintest idea of how to run a quality program.

You have the option of dual registration (no additional cost unless the ship has a fee).

As long as he completes his ordeal before his registration lapses with the troop he should not have a problem, regardless of his active status with the unit. Though I will point out that a Arrowman's first obligation is to his unit.

Though I have a bigger issue with the SM. He  does not have the option to not give the Scout a blue card, his signature is meant to signify he has discussed the process with the Scout. Your scout should have a discussion asking the SM to give him a blue card. If he SM refuses, I would address it with him myself. 

Edit: Wow, you guys type much faster than I do, there was only one reply when I started.

There are a number of issues here. 

Are they registered? If not, no one else may be aware of the record. If you are truly concerned, then you may want to inquire with your CO as suggested above. I would start with the CC, if you do not get a satisfactory response then escalate to CoR. If still not satisfied, then check with the council.

If they are registered, then:

The CO approved them, and BSA ran a background check (assuming there was no paperwork error.

If the background check came back clean, it could be because it was expunged (as stated above) or sealed. So background would come back clean. 

If the background check was done and came back with a record, then it is up to the Council.

The council has the option, depending on the nature of the crime, to allow the person to volunteer. I have seen volunteers with convictions be allowed to volunteer. Those that I am aware of were convictions were for crimes that did not put the youth at risk (bounced checks, white collar crimes, civil protest etc.)

Also, they could have plead their case down to an infraction that was less offending to the council. Or, depending on the source of the information (second or third hand/rumor) the crime in question may have never occurred or may have been embellished. 

If you feel Scouts safety is in question I would certainly urge you to follow up, but I would also recommend you be tactful, just in case your information is incorrect. 

Our Council is training Trainers/Facilitators to conduct YPT sessions. The facilitators are mostly District Training Chairs, Coordinators with some additional trainers identified.

Several training sessions are planned over the next month and a half. Facilitators will conduct the class and test the participants. Training chairs will record YPT in Scoutnet.

In mashmaster’s defense, I told the same to my son and his reply to me was similar to mm jr’s. I encouraged him to track them for future reference. He didn’t follow that advice. Now as he is closing in on Eagle, he commented he wish he had tracked them as it would save the time and effort of re-doing some of the, now, mundane task.

I simply shrug and smile. There are a few life lessons in that exchange. I’m curious how many he recognizes.

4 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

Try heating the badge up with an iron set on low.    makes the plastic nice and soft

I position all of my patches using Elmer’s washable glue. My wife uses her sewing machine to make the accessible ones permanent. The glue washes out in the first laundry cycle. (After my first/only effort in sewing with her machine, it was placed off limits and I am forbidden from touching it).

The patches not easily accessible to the machine, like the pockets, she sews by hand, using a method I think she called appliqué (?). The needle never passes through that patches plastic, only the threads around the outside. It looks a bit tedious.

Fortunately, I have no patches like that, but my son and daughter are learning how to do it.

I had to sew my patches on myself as a youth, and I don’t remember having to deal with this Kevlar style backing. 

A surprisingly well done article. Anytime I see articles/opinion pieces written by companies with a direct profit motive I expect it to be overly colored by said motive. I think this one is well balanced.

I think Badge Magic is a BSA semi-hazing, rite of passage. 

Most people fall in love with the magic of Badge Magic, only to be horrified by the evils of the black magic later.

THEN everyone says “oh yeah, that stuff it horrible”, but only AFTER you have learned this for yourself. It seems no tells you to avoid it upfront. 

Snipe hunting, anyone?

2 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I'm not judging, so don't take this question in that context; How do you answer to the "adding requirements" question?

Barry

I am not answering for T2Eagle, but vague issues like the term "active" are left to the SM discretion. Just like a vague MB requirement (assuming there are any) would be left to the MB Counselor.

On 8/12/2018 at 11:55 PM, oldbuzzard said:

Maybe our troop is pushing things too much, but in 6 months it won't matter, and the question was what is your troop doing to prepare for coed Scouts BSA. That's what we're doing.

But in 6 month's it will matter. You have set an example. You and your CO have appointed yourselves the judge of which rules should and should not be followed in an organization you do not run alone. Your Scouts, other Scouters and Scouts have witnessed this and may well model you and your CO. Perhaps they will not have your advanced wisdom to know which rules are good and which are bad. Maybe they choose to ditch some important G2SS or YPT rules, because they know better.

I once had a discussion with a famous athlete who stated he was not a role model, and people should not choose to model their behavior after him. I told him that was not his choice, people choose who they emulate, go or bad. His only choice was if the he was going to model good behavior or bad. Needless to say he did no take to my message, because her knew best, and, frankly, simply wanted to do what he wanted to do, regardless of others.

There are a number of BSA rules and policies I disagree with and I work to change them. However, I follow them, because I know youth are watching what I do and some will model my behavior, be it right or wrong.

On 8/9/2018 at 2:34 PM, walk in the woods said:

Maybe.  The OA has already set the equivalencies for induction and past camping experience counts (https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2018/05/23/order-of-the-arrow-to-open-unit-elections-to-scouts-bsa-venturing-and-sea-scouts/.  If Discovery is equivalent to First Class, then it wont' take much in the way of mental gymnastics to say Pathfinder is the equivalent of Star or Life.  

The OA has not set equivalencies. First, they have no authority to do so in any of the programs, the OA does not set policy for Boy Scouts, Venturing or Crew nor will they for ScoutsBSA.

Secondly, the OA worked with Venturing and Sea Scouts to identify the appropriate award level to eligible for election to the OA. While they may have worked with those programs to identify awards that roughly approximated the time and effort of achieving First Class, no one set those as equivalencies. Earning First Class does not get you Discovery, or vice versa. Each must be earned on their own in their own program. If a Scout belongs to both programs, he/she, can count much of the work done in one organization for equivalent requirements in the other (as long as they are actively registered in both simultaneously.)

Additionally, the prospective youth must have earned the rank/award the OA requires in order to be elected in that program. For example a Scout with the Discovery Award cannot be elected from a Troop if they are Second Class, they may only be elected from the Crew.

As for camping nights, Boy Scout camping nights has been the term used and that included Varsity. Boy Scouts being the reference for BSA regardless of the unit. So, yes, camping nights made as a member of a Crew or Ship would count just as they have for Varsity.

12 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

I have to quibble a little bit. The Pack the Den Chief serves does not have to be in any way connected to the Pack (or vice versa). A Den Chief could chose to serve a pack that ends up sending all of their scouts to a different troop. In our area, Packs and troops are not so connected. It is not uncommon for scouts in the same den to choose different troops.

You can lead the horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The Den Chief serves the Troop by being a friend and guide to the den. He can do a great job and the Cubs can still choose to go elsewhere. However, he has introduced the Cubs to the Troop through his service. That service is for the Troop, even if it does not benefit them

There currently is no planned/organized presence for the OA at WSJ. To my knowledge the OA was not invited as it is a uniquely a U.S organization.

When unread “technicality” I immediately thought something like a Merit Badge was completed but not recorded properly, or paperwork was turned in but a signature was in the wrong place, or maybe he had an extended illness that delayed him. Those are technicalities beyond the Scouts control. There are remedies for those situations.

But the time in rank is a well known and well documented requirement. That requirement nearly caught up with me more than 3 decades ago, it has nearly caught up with several Eagles I have mentored. It did trip up one I mentored. It is not a technicality, it is a requirement. And it’s not one I hear people complain about being unfair.

I do not feel sorry for him, he had a good Scouting experience based on the article. It looks like he has good character based on his comments. I say congratulations on what you have achieved. Nothing is preventing him from continuing as a Scouter, most Scouters are not Eagles. If he chooses not to become a Scouter based solely on feeling slighted by not earning his Eagle then he probably shouldn’t have earned it in the first place. If he does become a Scouter he will have a significant life lesson to pass on to his Scouts.

It’s not a technicality if you show up for a college exam 2 hours late and fail the test. It’s not a technicality if you fail to take a licensing exam prior to your deadline. It’s not a technicality if you don’t complete a project by the time the client needs it.

If there is some technicality, like I listed above, then I would support National In giving him some more time, but I don’t see that in the article. 

Eagle Scout is not a participation trophy given out because you tried hard or you are a good kid, it is earned based on then prevailing rules.

Congratulations to this young man, it appears he has a bright future with or without having earned Eagle.

Hello to all those at NOAC. It would be cool to have a meet up while here. If anyone is interested and has an idea of where to meet, let us know.

There will indeed be discussions about optional ceremonies without the Native American regalia going on at NOAC, but nothing I have heard about requiring such a move. 

If that were to occur, it will come as a huge surprise to many, as about half of the sessions revolve around the traditional induction ceremonies, AIA and creating regalia.

NOAC attendance is down from 2015, not surprisingly since it was the 100th anniversary, but pulling the rug out from under thousands of attendees would do far more damage than letting us know in advance of any moves toward doing away with Native American theme. 

I would be shocked if there was anything more than offering an alternative, and perhaps a discussion of long term possibilities.

I am sure National does. I read an article a couple of years back that stated only about 300 had been awarded nationally at that time. That sounds a little low but probably not too far off based on how many awardees I have seen personally.

In the good news column, the last session of OATC, which starts 7/13, is still on. In fact they are trying to expand and invite youth from earlier trail crews that were canceled. 

If the youth cannot attend in that time frame they are looking to get them on at one of the other high adventure base crews.

Funny, I have spent the last two weeks writing personal letters to each of my children as well as my wife. I will quietly leave the letters for them to see when they wake Sunday.

I would not be a father without them, and they are the greatest gift I could hope to receive.

I see a good deal of opposition to girl units because some organizations will not follow policy and have coed units.

Yet when organizations don’t follow policy in other areas (advancement, boy-led, patrol method, uniforms et al.) most argue they should be corrected rather not having that standard.

I have seen units extremely lax with advancement standards. It doesn’t make sense to drop advancement from the program because some units won’t follow policy. Just as it doesn’t make sense to oppose female troops because some units will ignore policy and become coed.

I support the new policy, but I am absolutely opposed to coed troops. 

I will push back on th parents that try to impose coed troops just as forcefully as I push back on parents that try to treat troops as cub packs.

Short answer, yes.

Long answer, I’m to tired for a long answer.

I don’t know. Our troop and crew have same CO, COR, same meeting night, same meeting location (different rooms). We share equipment, but usually have different dates four outings, but not always. Sometimes we share programs or service projects.

We have different Committee’s, different unit leaders and different youth leadership.

The youth work out the logistics. Sometimes we have improvise on equipment.

Our focus has been on providing the best program we can for our units, less about reasons we can’t.

Surplus army canteen (plastic) with cover is nearly indestructible and insulated. I still have some aluminum ones, but they are pretty banged up from years of use.

I have several  Nalgene bottles, 32 & 48 oz. I have never broken one yet. They work great and are easily sanitized.

Not a fan of Hydro Flask. I have had 2 that allowed detergent to seep into the seam and could never get the taste out.

Camelback or similar bladders work great if your pack accommodates them, or you use water packs.

I love neckers and routinely wear them. Over the years I have garnered quiet a collection.

After a while a few of my Scouts began to wear them because they liked how they look. Eventually, they voted to wear them as a unit and created a custom necker for the troop.