curious_scouter

Troops I know of rely 98% on cub crossovers, 2% on scout-friend recruitment for building a troop.  Most don't "need" to market and sometimes individual troops don't want to market.  Our troop is at 75 scouts.  That will drop to 50-60 in the next two years due to the double whammy of boys hitting 18 and the pack we work with having only a handful of crossovers to feed the troop.

I floated the idea of having a recruiting campout this year since we know our feed-in from packs will be light the next two years and it was received well.  We'll see if we do it.  When I was a youth we did that once a year.  We'd arrange to camp right out in front of everyone somewhere and invite the public in like an open house.  We were a small town but would usually get 3-5 new scouts a year doing that.

Nice thing about Troop vs. Pack is Troops are considerably less time sensitive.  Scouts can join almost any time since advancement is an individual responsibility.  For Packs, it's harder - if you don't get that "marketing" in right off the bat in the school year, a big influx of cubs mid-year creates and advancement challenge for Den  leaders, parents and scouts.

11 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

The y axis isn't at zero. So, it is going from 667k to 1011k. More like 52% growth. Huge, none the less. 

Thanks, good clarification. 

Anyone know if Scouts BSA has ever achieved that kind of membership gain in a 3 year period in its history?  Anyone with involvement / knowledge of the strategy at national to achieve such an aggressive goal? 

Does this mean their business plan currently relies on nearly doubling membership over the next 3 years?  I'd love to see that, any one have insight on how they expect to hit that goal? 

On 7/9/2022 at 9:23 AM, InquisitiveScouter said:

What have we seen from our fees locally?  Nothing.  Our DE (who is stretched way too thin) did not have the bandwidth to visit our IH to get our 2022 Charter Agreement.  We did the legwork for him and got all signatures, then delivered it to him....

I feel like we might be in the same council.  Either that or this is a VERY familiar story.

Last year my scouts got ONE lunch at a Camporee free for this fee.  A single turkey and cheese sandwich and a small box of milk.  No joke.

On 7/8/2022 at 7:53 PM, mrjohns2 said:

What portion of the $33 and $146 are the national fee? Your council popcorn and FOS have stayed steady even though membership is down significantly? 

$33 of the $33 was national.

$75 of the $146 was national.

My unprofessional, non-forensic opinion is the biggest impact they have seen is camping revenue has tanked.  It's down over $500,000 annually.  DESPITE this obvious reality - they continue to budget for much higher revenue from camp and consistently fall short.  One of the reasons I have such an issue with the assessment of the additional council fee is that it seems obvious a bulk of it is to cover this deficit.  HOWEVER, the fee has been assessed to every scout in council.  The first year it was in place, Cubs could not even attend the camp in question.  Now they can but their opportunity to do so is much more limited than Scouts BSA members, yet the fee is the same for each.  Additionally 60% of camp attendance in the summer is out of council units.  This fee is a council fee to cover the shortfall from running the camp.  So we are subsidizing the camping fees for a LOT of out of council scouts.  That's what I've come to understand and it's why I find it a hard pill to swallow. 

FOS is down a bit but nothing like the camping revenue tanking.  FOS being down is not surprising.  Who contributes to that?  The most passionate and invested people.  They are still here, so the revenue should be strong-ish still.  But... we all have limits.  When I was paying $48 a year for my two scouts, it was very easy to open up the checkbook when the FOS people came around.  Now that it's $300 a year... I mean... what do you expect?  You're getting what I can reasonable contribute from mandatory fees now.  Sorry... nothing left to give when FOS comes around and zero excitement to see them come around and ask families for more money when they've already increased the base cost of scouting to them by 5 orders of magnitude in the past 3 years without any objective improvement of a similar magnitude to the program or experience for the scouts.  It should embarrass them honestly.

Welcome!  Boy... this story sounds familiar to me It is basically the path I also took.  Hyper involved as a youth, fell off after college and married life, son came home in 1st grade asking if he could join Cub Scouts:  Heck yeah you can.  Back in the fray! 

Probably the best thing I can share is be humble.  I was amazed at how much I had forgotten.  Let the boys in the troop teach you, you'll both benefit from it.  If you're ever unsure how something is "supposed" to be done, do what the boys should do:  Ask your SPL

Popcorn and FOS are almost exactly today what they were in 2018.  It's not for salaries.  It's not entirely clear what it is for, that's the issue.  Help me understand how in 2018 first year membership was $33 and in 2021 it is $146 in my council.  I stand by it.  It's ludicrous.  The people collecting these fees owe us transparency.  They owe us a plan for getting back to an affordable rate.  They owe it to scouting NOT to make this a country club activity only accessible to the most wealthy who can afford these huge annual fees which are just the tip of the iceberg in costs for scouting.  They are professionals, they ought to be able to figure out a plan to get straight financially that doesn't boil down to "tax the heck out of all our members".  That had never been an approach ever.  And then it was.  It was clear that keeping scouting accessible to all was a priority of Scouts BSA and then suddenly around 2018 - nope.  That's sad.

Our council has a hefty $46 per scout additional fee.  Initially they called it an "insurance fee" but after being called out on the fact that insurance costs have gone DOWN for the council in each of the past 5 years, they renamed it "activity fee".  You know what my two sons got for that $46 each fee last year?  Free lunch one day at a camporee.  A turkey sandwich, bag of chips and little carton of milk.  I kid you not.  I honestly don't know what council needs or uses that money for but from my POV it's just a tax on parents and volunteers to make up shortfalls in their budget.  Even volunteer adults "get" to pay this fee.  It is ludicrous.

I'm not finding a lot of info about this.  I found one mention in a council's FAQ doc indicating that visitors are allowed but constrained to central jamboree and not permitted in subcamps which is understandable and fine.  Is it possible to attend as a visitor for a few days?  We have some scouts who might like to do that, some of the requirements of being part of the council contingent preclude their involvement (cost to attend / time commit / equipment purchase / etc.) but will be too old next jambo and have an interest to go see it.  We'd find suitable accommodations nearby and drive in for the days.

When I was a youth in '89 we drove down to AP Hill from a long ways and attended a couple of days in this model, but it's been a long time and the jambo has come a long way since then

What plans does your unit have that you are really looking forward to?  Any annual traditions that your scouts really look forward to? 

It's a good idea not to hold two positions.  In fact, it is BSA policy.  Unless you are uber strapped for volunteers, having an ASM serve as advancement coordinator / chair is just going to make that person spread thin, likely to be mediocre at both roles, and burn out faster.

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Registration-Guidebook.pdf

Page 14:

Quote

There are no restrictions on the number of positions one person may hold as long as the individual serves in only one position per unit with the exception of the chartered organization representative (CR), who is the only individual that can be registered in more than one position within the same unit. The CR may also serve in a multiple capacity as the committee chair (CC) or as a member of the committee (MC, NM, or PT) within that unit.

We are just back from summer camp.  This is my third camp as support leadership, next year I've raised my hand to take the lead so I'm capturing some of the observations, notes, etc. immediately on return while fresh in my mind because my mind is a sieve I thought I'd post some of the general comments here and see also if I can take advantage of the accumulated wisdom and recent summer experiences of those gathered here.  We had an AMAZING week.  Should note we had over 30 scouts with us, so some of this might be more relevant to a group that size, but still worth sharing. 

• Will encourage more that Scouts bring "old fashioned games" to camp and considering building a box of them for our trailer.  Chess, dominoes, checkers, packs of cards, LCR, etc.  Once our scouts got their chess boards and sets from the merit badge, which was Thursday night, there were no less than THREE games of chess running in camp at a time.  Magic!  If we had provided that opportunity earlier in the week we would have had more of that I think.  Cheap, easy to pack, durable games like that can be a mainstay in our troop gear as well, providing similar opportunities on most outings. 
• Will have part of the prep docs and parent conversation be about moderating the games and music sent to camp.  It all needs to be appropriate for 11+ if coming to camp.  What started off as "anyone want to play cards?" turned out to be cards against humanity, which we luckily caught wind of and quickly nipped.  Oof though.  Can you imagine?  I feel like foot locker inspections are draconian, but I am thinking about at least having the quartermaster and SPL have some kind of "health check" as boys report to camp.  "Do you have your hygiene products?  Do you have only age appropriate games?  Do you have food in your footlocker that needs to be squared in the bear box?"  Etc.
• Air Tags / tiles on high value items like phones and daypacks were clutch.  They will get lost.  99% of the time, they will make their way to main office lost and found.  Being able to KNOW the item is there safe, while allowing the scout to stew about it until daylight was helpful to us.  We could comfortably put off the search (especially in the dark) knowing the expensive / important item would be found in the morning.  It also allowed us to locate a phone that had been dropped in the middle of the woods, presumably during orienteering.  I am fairly sure it would never have been found otherwise.  That parent had the "locate my device" feature on, not the air tag type of service.  They were able to share the exact coordinates and when we got close turn on the screen and sound which enabled us to find it.  I kind of hated the scavenger hunts for devices and property but those tags and services helped tremendously when available.  One scout lost their phone and its battery was dead so the passive tile device on it was key.  This is some insurance a parent can provide that the expensive device will get home.  We can debate the place phones have at summer camp (and my group currently is) but the reality is I think they will be there and there is a use for them at camp (photos, contact sharing with new friends, research in badge classes like oceanography, indian lore, etc) and with youth this age - loss potential is high.  I will say no one over the age of 13 lost their device or daypack or uniform.  It was entirely the younger cadre.  The mature scouts showed they could manage themselves well in this respect, the younger experienced the lessons they need to learn about holding on to property in a relatively safe environment where 9 times out of 10 your [insert precious item here] will be turned in to lost and found vs. kept thanks to everyone being scouts. 
• Scoutmaster leading made a point to remind ALL scouts if you brought money to camp it is YOUR money.  If you are a young scout and get asked to run an errand by an older scout you are NOT to do it and are to report it to the leaders - no scout is any other scout's errand lackey.  I found that valuable, there was a problem with this on arrival night but never happened again after expectations were properly set.
• We had an excellent SPL who excelled in the camp setting.  It was crucial to the success of the week. Do you guys do any pre-camp coaching/prep/training for the SPL?  A week at camp is a different beast than a weekend campout or troop meeting.  They are balancing a lot more and have a ton more to manage on top of their classes.

These are some initial reflections and ponderings I had.  Curious to know what other pro tips you all have that lead to "magic moments" or that you found particularly beneficial and plan to include in the plan for next time.

Our SM put this to the PLC, which I thought was a great approach.  They did some research and looked into policies from a variety of troops.  They ended up taking the approach that electronics are part of our life now, but like Knives they are tools within Scouting and there's a time and place for them and a proper way to use them.  So the set up SOPs for use of electronics and required a class to gain a "cyber totin chit" just like a knife.  When Scouts aren't using their tools in line with the PLC's established SOP they are warned.  If it becomes habitual or there's a severe infraction, they lose the right until they take the class again and re-commit to the SOPs.  I liked this approach a lot.  IN PRACTICE - they have not followed through real well But I still like it.  Sets clear ground rules for use and consequences for misuse.  "When I was a kid" electronics on campouts were strictly forbidden.  I think that's impractical today BUT scouts should be encouraged to put them away, enjoy the activity and outings, etc.  Phones in particular are also cameras, GPS units, compasses, note taking devices, research tools, etc.  There is value to their use even on an outing, but it's all about time and place. 

Councils don't want to do this any more than the units do.  If they did, they would have been pushing this for years.  It's being done out of necessity and Scouts BSA needs this to work.  If there's widespread looting of unit resources by council(s) it will torpedo this and scouting is likely to fail. I'm not worried at all about council chartering and the resources of our unit being protected if we're required to go that route.  I'm more worried about having a consistent place to meet and somewhere safe to keep the trailer without having to pay through the nose for storage.

Consistent with the don't overblow, but don't underestimate the risks sentiment (which is a good point) a corporation only provides so much protection.  Officers of the corporation are quite often included in lawsuits, especially if there is some presumed negligence.  I've run a 501c7 for many, many years and we carry officers and board liability insurance for this very reason. 

If you elect to explore the formal charity route, invest in professional advice from an attorney and an accountant who have good experience in these matters.  They will know all the latest scuttle and they will be familiar with your state's rules as well as the IRS requirements.

In the Rules and Regulations there is a section about Charters to Groups of Citizens:

Quote

Charters to Groups of Citizens
While the formation of units in connection with existing organizations is preferred, when conditions warrant, a charter may be granted for
the formation of a unit independent of any relationship with an existing organization, provided, however, that the applicants are citizens
of the United States who subscribe to the principles of the Scout Oath, whose interest is primarily in helping youth through the Scouting
program, and who have the resources to provide the necessary leadership, supervision, and facilities. In such cases, the obligations upon
the applicants for a charter are the same as those required for organizations.

Establishing a 501c3 doesn't seem to be 100% mandatory then.  In the past I shied away from doing 501c3's for several groups I established over the filings and compliance requirements being pretty stiff and either challenging for a "regular person" to navigate or an expense for hiring a professional to maintain.  There are probably others who will say it's a piece of cake.  Just sharing my experience on establishing a real charity.

Yeah, that's what I was asking.  If someone who administrates the forum could look to see if there is an option to enable discussion topic titles in the browser title bar.  I went to the invision site to see if I could find info about the setting to suggest.  I could not but while there I noticed their forums have this.  See screenshots attached for what I mean.

ETA:  That long text "Option for homepage title..." that's the topic title I was currently viewing.  On the Scouter Forum site it's always just "Scouter Forum".

When you click into a topic, is there a configuration in the back end that will put the topic subject in the browser title?  I usually come, open the unread messages stream, and then I'll open several in new tabs and read through.  But each tab just says "Scouter Forum", so if I need a refresh I need to scroll to the top of page.  Not a HUGE deal, but thought I'd file the though/request and see.  Thanks in advance for anything

My two cents:  Assuming the idea is to help them ease into the Patrol Method, only the boys should wear the patrol emblem.  You should emulate the role of a Scoutmaster or Assistant Scoutmaster in the exercise.

We did this in our AOL year to prepare them for the patrol method.  Have them elect a leader.  When possible, rely on the Patrol leader to execute tasks and run activities during the den meetings.  If you have a Den Chief, treat them like the Senior Patrol Leader and progressively start asking them to direct the Patrol leader.

I found it hard after 8 years in a Pack to adjust to the "boy lead" mindset of a Troop.  After so many years of doing for/with them, it's hard to back off a bit.  This is good practice for them and for you

I'm an engineer so I value STEM but I do not want to see a focus on STEM in Scouts BSA.  There is no shortage of STEM programs, focus, and push in school and home.  Let Scouts be about other things.

On 5/22/2022 at 9:03 PM, Cecille25 said:

To conclude my son’s were wronged by this Troop and its organization. They agree that it is ok for grown men to bully kids. This council has wronged them by not listening to their story and choosing to turn a blind eye… not to question.  The organization rep wants to NOW meet with me and too little too late. We are moving to another troop. Going to get them through their eagle as soon as possible. Sad that 9+ years in the pack/troop and  working with multiple SM only to realize that it was for not. 

I'd take the meeting with the COR at least by phone.  They have the authority to replace the CC or the SM if they feel the situation demands it.  I still think you should move on FWIW.  Even if the COR does the right thing here, I think the well is poisoned.  You will be valued elsewhere.

Has anyone here done what @elitts suggests and create their OWN not for profit to serve as a charter?  I have never heard of this, curious to see if it's a common and successful practice. 

It seems like if you find yourself suddenly charter-less and need to act fast, if the Council Unit option does not appeal the best other alternative is the "group of citizens" charter option.  But then some person has to volunteer to have the finances attached to their own SSN which these days seems like it would create tax complications for that person.  I know I'd be reluctant to put my own SSN on the line.

I found this doc:

https://www.bsacac.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Fiscal-Policies-and-Procedures-for-BSA-Units_CAC_FINAL.pdf

I think it answers this question:

Quote

Unit Banking
- Checking Accounts: Unit funds should be deposited in a checking account that requires two
signatures, typically the Treasurer and a member of the Unit Committee.
o Charter Organization Units: Contact your charter organization for permission to use
their EIN and direction on who to use as the responsible party. In the alternative, many
councils allow units to deposit funds in custodial accounts in the council service center.
o Council Registered Units: Contact your council for permission to use their EIN and
direction on who to use as the responsible party. Council Registered Units previously
using separate bank accounts through a Charter Organization should close those
accounts and follow the local council policies for a new account. Council registered units
should not use custodial accounts

I think I'm a duty roster believer.  This weekend we went to a camporee and ... well I'd like to say we "decided to try" the "everyone helps" method but in reality we just ended up there for ... reasons.  I didn't love it, the boys were split.  There were literally too many cooks in the kitchen in my opinion

I see value in the duty roster.  It sets expectations clearly, helps ensure everyone takes their turn, breaks larger tasks down into more manageable pieces, it helps those who need a turn for advancement get it, and it avoids congestion. 

The patrol leader can make an executive call if the meal plan really demands a few more hands for cooking or KP.

I think I support the standard duty roster template.  If there is no fire, it's easy to scratch off.  Having the water crew ensure water vessels are full and to heat the water for KP does provide more jobs to do, leadership chances, and a better sharing of the task load than having KP crew responsible to get and heat water on top of doing the actual dishes.

I suspect the answer to this is going to be "you need to call your council" but I've seen a lot of Charter orgs pulling support and have seen that you can now do a "Council Unit" charter directly with your council if needed vs. a traditional nonprofit organization.

For anyone who has done that, how does banking work?  Can you still obtain a bank account to conduct business or do you need to do everything via reimbursement?  I can't find a lot of details on how a Council Unit works.

The agreement is here:
https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Annual-Registration-Agreement-Council-Units.pdf

It says nothing about finances.  Over the past years I've worked with two scouting units, both with the same charter org, and both had bank accounts under that org's EIN.