thrifty

registration fee $36

we collect an additional $24 in yearly dues, this is intended to pay for badges, ranks, misc patches and crossovers get a woggle and necker.  our budget is very thorough and this usually evens out or is slightly more than we need.

parents are responsible for everything else.

Our popcorn and other fundraiser are used to upgrade equipment/tents and we pay for whatever leader training is needed.

Our average campout is approx. $35/scout including any camping fees, food and mileage.  We also have occasional trips that are more expensive and can be $80-$100, usually due to registration fees, mileage and tolls.

summer camp is approx. $450 with registration, mileage and paying for an extra leader.

My son will have had at least 3 uniforms by the time he turns 18, including his webelos shirt.

I've been a star wars fan since the 70's.  I know more about SW than I do about the BSA but I care about both and want to see them succeed.  I didn't care for LTJ but it had nothing to do with feminism.  The story sucked in my opinion and directly conflicted with all of the old canon and reversed a heroic character into a whiny hermit.  The previous SW movie killed off a main character.  Fan boys have dreamed of a new movie with the same actors since the ending of ROTJ and LTJ was an utter waste and a slap in the face.  I don't think most fans care about the progressive feminist themes you posted about.  The old fans I know have open arms for any new SW fans especially girls.  I see girls wearing SW shirts and it makes me feel good.  I would have been very happy in my teens to be able to talk SW with any girl.  Each generation is exposed to a different SW, I had the original trilogy.  Some fans had the prequel trilogy, others had the re-released originals, my son's generation had the cartoons and now this generation has the new movies.  I want everyone to find something in SW they care about and become a fan.

I feel similar about the BSA.  There has been good and bad.  People have different opinions about what was good and what should or should not have been done.  I want BSA to succeed.  I want everyone to be a fan of the BSA even if it's not for the same reason I'm a fan.  I like some of the things that people on this forum complain about.  I think that it's a shame that people have an all or nothing attitude about BSA.  The recent SW movies aren't great but I'm still a SW fan.  I think its also similar to being a fan of a really bad sports team.  They suck but someone still supports them and hopes for better.  I think it's great that girls want to do the things boy scouts do.  I'm not a fan of National and I don't care for the way they do things.  I think that separate girl/boy troops would be ok but my biggest problem is that this will be outright ignored by many and it will be coed troops because of lack of volunteers, logistics and some people just don't give a damn about the rules.  If dad is the SM and mom is now an ASM because your sister is there too, why even be in scouts?  why doesn't the family just go camping on their own?  Camping allows the boys to get away from their family with the exception of maybe a few dads.  

unfortunately our troop is not thrifty.  It's easy for some people to spend money when it's not theirs.  But I thought I'd post some of my ideas, maybe they will be helpful for someone.

Our suburb community has a local facebook page.  If your community has one, I suggest always asking for used donated supplies before spending any cash.  This requires some planning because it won't be instant.  But for example, if a cooler or a lantern is needed, just put a post on facebook asking if anyone has a dusty cooler sitting in their garage that hasn't been used in years.  If you want help, you need the courage to ask for it.  Make a wish list and post it.  don't post each little item separately.  Always respond and pick up items promptly even the things you don't really want if they come in a bundle.  Have a photocopied thank you letter signed by everyone scouts and adults to give them when you pick up.  Thanking someone is nice but it also builds community spirit towards the scouts.

We have a lot of garage sales and thrift stores.  I've gotten many used cub uniforms that way.  Not very many boy scout items but sometimes.  Some camping gear.  I resisted buying two used mess kits tonight because we just didn't need them.  I always wear a class b when at garage sales.  Many times people will just give me things for the troop when they see the shirt or we'll start a conversation that leads to a good deal, etc..

Don't be picky.  Does that 1970's external frame backpack hold the same amount as the fancy new internal pack?  Who cares what it looks like if it functions.  Is a generic item just as good as a name brand?  Not always but many times it is.  Just depends on how often it will be used and the cost of replacement.  Name brand does not guarantee anything.

craigslist will sometimes have a good deal by searching for words like tent or hiking but it's not very often around here.

Store clearances.  We have several Walmarts and Targets nearby.  There is always a clearance season for these stores when they restock.  Finding the deals is not easy but I have gotten $65 coleman stoves for $25 and nice coleman tents for 75% off and recently purchased several different coleman lanterns for 50% off.  The nice sleeping pads for $10 a piece, I waited 10 minutes too long and someone else snatched all but the two in my cart.  $20 fishing poles for $7.

Try emailing or, even better, calling customer service for a company if you plan on making a large purchase.  Explain its for the scouts.  Eureka gives a great discount for troop tents if you call them.  We buy several at a time.  Don't be afraid to ask!

Word of mouth.  Send out an email to everyone in the pack or troop and explain what items are needed.  Ask if something can be included in a CO newsletter.  Any items donated will be less dues spent and more for the kids.  So they need to network with their friends and families to see what they have in the attic or garage. What do the leaders, parents and parishioners do for a living?  where do they work?  even donated office supplies help offset some small costs.

be creative and resourceful.  I was in charge of the pack Halloween party one year and I wanted to make a few things but I had a tight budget.  I used old scrap wood to make what I needed and it worked great and I got lots of compliments for something that cost me nothing except my time.  There was a giant box of old kool aid packets in the pack closet that I would never let anyone drink because I don't know how old they are but they were great for tie dye t-shirts.

camping? ask a local wilderness group if the scouts could camp for free or for an hour of community service picking up brush or something.  We've got many hunting/fishing/shooting clubs in the area that own properties and they always have youth programs.  Scouting has similar goals except for the hunting part.

borrow from other places.  maybe another pack or troop can loan out something with the understanding that it will be returned as is or replaced if damaged. 

Our troop neckerchiefs were discontinued so now we use a generic green clothe which is hemmed and a paracord woggle.  I'm told its cheaper.  It is definitely easy to replace either item.

These are just a few ideas off the top of my head. 

7 minutes ago, NealOnWheels said:

Private online communications (texting, phone calls, chat, IM, etc.) must include another registered leader or parent.

As scout parents, one of us was always present when he was calling a MBC.  He can't make an agreement to meet someone and then just expect us to drive him without checking our schedules.  We don't have MBCs in the troop so he would always be meeting strangers out of town, sometimes an hour away.  He talks to the MBC, tells us the plans and then we say yes or suggest an alternative plan.  I don't recall ever needing to use speaker phone but if things got confusing we would just tell him to use that.

From my experience, the adult leaders are the ones that have the most trouble remembering to copy an additional person when sending messages.

never heard of this.  It's getting difficult to keep track of all of these youth groups.  sounds similar to scouting to me.

The Troops of Saint George is a fraternal Catholic nonprofit apostolate for priests, men, and young men looking for a life of adventure coupled with virtue. Initially founded in 2013 by Catholic author and professor Dr. Taylor Marshall we have become a collection of troops that do the following:

• experience reverent and beautiful Masses on mountaintop vistas
• pray the Rosary with other men around fire pits in the freezing cold
• catch a Fish Friday meal by fly fishing for trout
• go to confession with our priests while kneeling on moss in the woods
• teach our sons archery, rockclimbing, marksmanship, fishing, survival skills…and Catholic virtues
• foster a love for the priesthood and a reverence for the sacrament of Matrimony
• support our local parish, our priests, our bishops, and community by being available for works of mercy and service

I enjoyed that.  thanks for sharing.

my son and two other 13yo scouts took nylt last year.  The year before that our troop also had several scouts go and they were either 13 or not much older.  All of the boys enjoyed the experience from what they said.  many of them are going back this year to help.  Not mine  but he was interested in going back earlier in the year and just changed his mind (got lazy...again).  My son implied that a lot of it was just common sense to him.  All of the scouts that went seem mature and had already had several leadership positions before going including PL for some.  If they waited too long, sending them to nylt would seem almost pointless IMO.  

1 hour ago, FireStone said:

Maybe we're coming back around to increased social acceptance (and hopefully increased popularity) of these non-sports activities.

I definitely agree to a point.  Class of '92 and the things that hurt my popularity and got eye rolls back then were "geeky" culture.  Comic books, video games, board games, computers, etc..  Now these things are part of popular culture all over the world like never before.  The younger generations appear to be more open minded.  Of course this does not apply to everyone.  There's also all of this talk about football concussions and it seems like every year there are stories about young athletes dropping dead while playing.  Everyone I knew in our 20's complained about bad knees from football and we were barely old enough to drink.  Scouts also has this "one with nature" vibe to it and many young people are more concerned about the environment now.  But sports stars at all levels will continue to get the glory and that won't change. 

Thanks everyone.  I appreciate the help.  I've read some of this info before and it has a good description but without knowing more about Summit, I felt like it wasn't enough to commit my money.  The map was a big help.  It makes sense that strangers can't walk through the actual camps.  If Summit Center is the central hub, then I would assume that most scouts and scouters would be spending their time there....waiting in lines.

Hello,

We are a reasonable driving distance from Summit.  WSJ is too expensive but my family is considering the possibility of driving to Summit for a day pass during WSJ.  We didn't know about day passes prior to NSJ '17.  I've seen the info online for NSJ day passes but those details are too vague for my comfort.  I've heard stories about NSJ and I would expect WSJ to be even crazier with regards to lines, crowds, etc..  What I would like to know is what exactly a day pass entitles the user to do/see, what kind of access is the user allowed?  I don't think my scout would want to wait in line for 3 hours to do a zip line or other activity so I'm not worried about that but we would like to see the entire camp and be able to explore and people watch and feel like we're a part of the celebration.  We wouldn't want to be cordoned off in some small area or only be allowed access to limited areas.  That would be a wasted trip.  Any feedback on what should happen at WSJ or what did happen at NSJ with regards to day passes is appreciated.

Thank you.

I'm also an anal retentive accountant so I can appreciate your posts and your way of thinking.  I don't mind the scouts too much but it is very frustrating when the adults cannot properly care for troop equipment.  I would spend my own money on items and they would just disappear.   Hmmm, last person I saw it with was a scout leader.  

I like your ideas as long as you were investing in the tools for your own use as well.  If it would only be for the troops then I don't think its a good idea because you may get a lot of interest or you may get very little or interest may diminish over time.  We needed axe covers and I felt they were too expensive to purchase so I made some with leather from items I purchased at thrift stores.  They weren't fancy but I was proud of them and they worked well.  It would have been nice for the scouts to do it but I was using random tools I have in the garage and not leather tools and I was in a hurry. I'm sure they would like making personalized leather items but after they've done it once, then I suspect most would not be interested in doing it again.  It probably wouldn't be repeated until the PLC leadership has changed to mostly newer scouts that had not done it previously.  I'd say the number of troops and girl scouts in your area should be a big factor on your decision.

 

As far as resistance to change goes, the normal pattern of change occurs when parents step in and start messing with the program, the result of which is the destruction of the program as it was designed.  One sees this all the time when a parent wishes to "do more with their son" so they sign up and chaperone an event.  What it amounts to is father and son team up to bond, and together they ignore the rest of the boys.  Doesn't bode well for the leadership of the PL and the patrol method.

This topic is about helicopter parents and I don't disagree with you but not all troops work as well as the ones scouters on here post about.  I'd be glad to see an old timer with no kids leading the troop because all we have are leaders that joined when their kids did and coincidentally the rules/procedures always seem to change or bend when the scouter's child is involved and then change again after the scouter's child is no longer involved.(this is especially true when $ is involved)  Your father and son scenario would be our current leaders.  It's also amazing the lack of open mindedness that some people have.  There are always new and better ways to do things.  Meetings don't need to be boring all the time.  Dozens of emails don't need sent all the time.  Leaders with two or three years of experience don't always automatically know what's best.  I know what my son and his friends think and what they tell the BoR but somehow those requests for different things never seem to be addressed.  I'm sure our leadership would probably consider me a helicopter parent and somewhat of a pest because I question things and want what I think is best for my son and the other scouts.  I'm also a volunteer that is always there when needed (unlike most), has contributed a considerable amount of my time and money,and is concerned with more than just my son.  I also seek answers and want to be better informed.  I've organized a fund raiser and been told that I would never make more than $500 but I made $2000 and the year after that I made even more.  I found a new idea for a campout online and showed it to my son who thought it was good enough to present to the PLC.  The troop did the campout and had a great time with lots of positive feedback but the leadership had originally thought it was a terrible idea and was surprised anyone would want to do it.

The leaders in our troop are well intentioned but the only goal they have is to get their sons to Eagle and achieve their own personal goals.  That's where their motivation stops.  I'm ranting about this because I'm upset (more than usual) with the situation.  I found out that a leader lied to the scouts in order to manipulate them to accomplish something he felt was important.  I value honesty and integrity and I have lost sleep because of this.  I wish I could put my son in another troop but it's not realistic to pull him from his friends and classmates so I will continue to question things that involve him but I am stepping down from my position and want to distance myself.  I think that's unfortunate for the troop because they really need ever volunteer they can get.

when our troop has attended a camporee or larger scout camping event, they have never done an additional weekend camp on their own during the same month.  The PLC decided once a month was enough camping. 

Consider a skit where you guys act out the process.

One guy plays your SM, another the MBC, and two others a boy and his buddy interested in a badge.

Try and have some fun with it based on your best and worst experiences.

I think that's a great idea.  Really play it up like qwazse said in his other post.

We have a lot of scouts that don't seem interested in badges and only earn them at summer camp.  Like others have said, there's nothing wrong with this.  I feel that in our troop there are several reasons for this attitude. 

The first, is that the scouts don't care about badges and just want to have fun.  That's great, no complaints about that.  I don't feel there should be any pressure to rank up.

The second, is that badges are rarely talked about except for summer camp. It doesn't seem like scouts are aware of badges.  I saw a scout with a video camera going on a campout and asked if he was doing the movie making merit badge.  He was surprised there was a movie making merit badge and he was just taking the camera to screw around. I just had a conversation with a new parent and she expressed how motivated her scout was with popcorn sales and he wanted to make a poster and would even make a sales video if possible and I told her that if the scout was into that stuff he should check out Amer. Business or Salesmanship badges.  It's my opinion that in our troop the scouts are only aware of badges that are offered at summer camp or if the troop works on something.  I would like to see a discussion once a year about options that scouts have but that is not my decision to make.  Scouts could go around and also talk about badges they've earned that they enjoyed or did not enjoy, keeping in mind that each person's experience would be different.

Third, the badge requirements seem overwhelming or intimidating.  I've read the requirements for a few badges and just shook my head.  A few badge requirements seem overwhelming to me as an adult.  As others have said, I assume scouts don't want to do badge homework and more paperwork or projects after already doing that kind of stuff in school.  A creative person could probably make some of it more interesting but I think some things are just always going to be boring to adolescents.

Fourth, resources to accomplish the badge.  You can't do rifle badge without a rifle and a range of some sort.  I haven't looked at all the badge requirements lately but if I recall, many of what I would consider are the fun badges require obvious specific items or environments.  I think something like Geocaching would be enjoyed by most scouts but until someone has done it once, they probably wouldn't be motivated to do the badge.  You also need GPS of some kind and people may not realize that there are apps for phones now. 

my son recently spent seven hours in our park system looking for wildlife for his fish and wildlife merit badge requirement. said he had a great time.  he'll be out there again because he still needs two more.

The wife recently overheard a conversation our son had with another non-scout friend saying how much fun he had at a recent scout event.  This felt good because the event was my idea and I was a little nervous about it.  I also got positive feedback from some other scouts and adults.

popcorn sales are done.

That was cool.  really good commercial.  The values promoted in the commercial are obvious but I wonder why they chose pwd.  It would seem that any craft project would suffice. just because it's a car?  I don't think there's any hidden agenda.  I know some people have on these forums have complained before about girls and pwd but GSA in our area have been doing their own cars and races for years. 

Would seem like an easy way for bsa to be in the background on tv.  those stupid commercials where the couple are driving their shiny suv to the remove site for a cup of coffee could have scouts hoping out and setting up a tent in the background.  or helping them with orienteering when the couple can't find their way home and gps doesn't work.

Get some retired extinguishers and practice putting out grease fires?

 

I've wanted the scouts to do this for a long time.  I think it would be fun as well as educational.  maybe make some different size fires to see results and test different size extinguishers if available.

For anyone interested, extinguishers expire and most of the time they just get thrown out by maintenance departments in buildings, etc..  I'm not aware of any specific disposal procedures in our area.

A lot of scouters on here are wise and experienced.  But I also think there are many scouters not on here that are not wise and experienced.  Your statements sound about right to me.  Programs that are run well can be great but I think it doesn't take much for a program to suffer because of lack of foresight or indifference or poor planning and sometimes just bad luck.

The pack that we came from did nothing to prepare the webelos for scouting but that had zero impact on our boys.  The troop they crossed over to had a gap in the scout ages with mostly older boys and the previous year cross overs.  The troop had lost several years worth of scouts.  Found out later it was because of a lack of getting the boys involved.  When our group joined the priority was getting the older boys to eagle and the younger scouts were just kind of there.  This was a lesson learned for the wife and myself but our boys didn't know what could or should be happening and therefore felt everything was normal.  Now all of those older boys are gone.  there was definitely a learning curve for new scout youth leadership because there were no veteran leaders left.  With a few years under their belts the scouts have got some experience now and can teach the new crossovers but our oldest boy is only 16 and after that everyone is 14 or younger.

I would expect a scout to prefer the friends he already had when he crossed over but I think it says something about the troop if he doesn't feel like he's made any new friends while he's been there to keep his interest in going.

Scouters are volunteers and I know that I can only expect so much but it is also very frustrating to see things that just won't change.  Some scouters priorities are their own motivations and not necessarily what's best for the troop or other scouters.  Boy led doesn't do much good if the boys are given any examples to work with. 

I've heard the complaint about boring meetings many times.  There are lots of resources out there but scouters and scouts need to look for them and know where they are and be encouraged to do things in fun ways.  Some adults prefer the stuffy board meetings with paper agendas and lack the skills or imagination for anything else.    It's unfortunate and can easily be fixed with proper motivation but if you've only ever known boring meetings that seems normal.

Meetings are every week but did he have to go to all of them?  Our troop understands about other commitments so many scouts can't be at all the meetings especially around sports seasons.  Of course, if the meetings were more fun and less boring it would probably be more likely that the meetings would be a priority.  Camping has been an issue for us in the past.  Our scout does not go on every campout and that's that.  Don't like it?  Tough.  We pay for the campouts and we don't feel scouting is a priority over our personal lives so we as a family decide when he goes.  I'd say he's been to about 75%.  Your son doesn't like camping?  Probably because it's the same people that are at the boring meetings.  I don't blame him.  He needs some fun camping experiences and maybe that would win him over.  But maybe not. 

I've always felt that scouting represents many different things and there is something there for everyone but it's not always attainable for many reasons.  As others have suggested, maybe looking at other troops would help.  I know so much now that I would have tried to steer my son to a different troop but he'd still want to be where his friends are.

Aquatics at night is not allowed  in the G2SS unless it is a well light area.

 

 

Actually national came up with a way to get around this at the local council's discretion. It was on Bryan's Blog a few weeks ago.

Can someone direct me to where this is at on the blog?  I don't follow the blog and I don't see anything regarding this when I try to find it (the topic, not the blog).  thx

I'm not worried about it. This isn't going to be the same story a lot of us know, where a troop camps somewhere and a girl scout troop happens to camp nearby, and the boys all lose their minds. The novelty of that kind of situation is what fuels the dumbness. The boys see girls every day at school and think nothing of it. They're capeable of focusing in class, working with girls on projects, etc., without issue. But out in the woods in a situation where you don't expect to see girls, it's totally different.

 

That all will change with this new girls initiative in the BSA. If the novelty of seeing girls at scout meetings, trips, events, etc., wears off, then we're just back to business as usual. And I believe the novelty will wear off quickly.

one way or another it will have to be handled just like everything else but I disagree with you on the "boys think nothing of it" discussion.  I hear what my thirteen year old talks about to his friends while they are online at home.  they want to sit next to girls they like and talk to girls they like and are crushing hard on girls and that's while they are at school.  I imagine it will be similar at scouts IF there is a girl that a scout fancies.  I have to agree with Back Pack's perspective on this.  I just remembered when one of the older scouts brought his new girlfriend with him to a fundraiser.  He didn't make it half way through the event before he was off holding hands and making googly eyes with her.  Not saying that will be the problem but I don't think they are suddenly going to act as genderless scouts.  Men and women in the military may work together without issue but there's all kinds of sex going on between them.  Again, I'm not saying that will be the problem. 

Girls were on camp staff when I was at summer camps as a kid in the 90s. It's certainly nothing new. I went to a camporee this weekend, in a staff of about a dozen probably 4 were girls/women. 

 

I heard the statistic recently that as many as half of scout leaders are women. 

 

Girls are always in attendance and on staff in noticable numbers at the larger events, jambo, etc. 

 

Girls have featured prominently in BSA literature, marketing materials, advertising, etc., to promote a family-friendly program and environment. 

 

If the argument is that the BSA was a place to avoid the female gender entirely, that hasn't really been the case in a long time. 

I have mixed feelings about this new decision and have kept my opinions to myself.  Some of this is good, some of this not so good IMO.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not worried about having female adult leaders or older female venturers at camp (except there won't be enough of them).  I'm not worried about girls in cubscouts.  What I'm worried about is the cute 15 year old girl that makes all of the boyscouts act like fools.  I'm sure that venturers, seascouts, our foreign friends and anyone else dealing with youths have all had to deal with this before so it's nothing new.  But I'm not too old to remember what I and my friends were like when hormones were raging.  It's amazing how much dumber we became around teenage girls and more importantly jealous of each other when someone else got the attention we wanted or spiteful when rejected.  Scout law doesn't change reality and it will be interesting to see how this all comes together (or falls apart).

I know there's talk about separate programs but it's obvious to most of us that isn't what will happen in reality.  I also think I'm most disappointed in National for the way the situation was handled.  Seems very much like how the corporations I have worked for handle things and doesn't seem appropriate for a mostly volunteer organization.

Also, I had my thirteen year old scout read the official announcement the day it came out so he would be informed and he didn't care either way. 

Hi, welcome.

 

The counselor must be registered in your Council.

 

If I may ask, why so determined for one elective merit badge?

"It is acceptable for a counselor registered in once council to approve merit badges for Scouts in another."  - Guide to Advancement.  I believe it's page 45.

Our troop has not done summer camp in council for several years.  We also occasionally travel for specialty merit badges that our local environment cannot accommodate. It would be a great disservice to the scouts to limit their counselors to one council (at least in our area). 

Unfortunately, I cannot recommend a Textile counselor.

Looked into this not long ago.  As qwazse said "situations were prohibitive" for us.  Nearest pickup for anything being several hours away.  I would have been willing to make the drive depending on what the items were but the troop leaders were only interested in new items so I didn't waste my time.  We also have very limited storage so having a bunch of cool stuff that is never used would not help us.

It does appear to have some merit for those that can take advantage of it.  Always interested in hearing any good scores or experiences.

In our troop only registered leaders go on campouts.  SM and several ASMs.  With the new rules, I would assume all adults staying for summer camp are registered leaders.  We've never had a problem with too many volunteers.  Seems like you've already identified the critical needs.

The summer camp we go to currently gives us two free leaders.  We get another free leader for FOS participation.  We budget for a fourth leader.  If more than that go, the cost gets split between them but this need is based on our current number of boys and drivers.  It is also expected that they will participate in some sort of training if needed/available.  Do the adults in your troop pay for their own attendance at summer camp?  If not, perhaps charging the adults something and having the troop pay less would change the minds of a few of the less motivated scouters.  Notify everyone that they are expected to take training if available. 

If any adults are new scouters or have never been to summer camp, it would seem like a good idea to have one or more of them go so that they can get their feet wet while accompanied by other experienced scouters.  That way some of the noobs can at least know what summer camp is like if they are needed in the future.  Some of our adults in the past really had no idea how summer camp worked.  The camp we go to has had some great training too.  If someone that's not critical has already been to summer camp three times, give someone new  a chance.  

Does your summer camp attempt to recruit attending adults for counselor positions?  If so, is there any advantage to a troop for an adult volunteering as a counselor while they are there?  Maybe it would be to the troop's benefit if some of the adults going will also be counselor's.  Our camp has done this in the past but I can't remember if there was any kind of incentive.

you guys are already talking about summer camp and it's only oct?  I wish our troop was that organized.  we'll be talking about summer camp in May.    

I can only assume by comments our SM has made in the past, that his biggest fear is being held responsible for something bad happening to a scout.  I think he's a little paranoid but I'm sure most of you veteran scouters have at least one story of something bad happened to a scout and having to tell the parents.  I agree that the scouts need freedom and need trust that they will do the right thing.  How do you balance the need of the scouts with parents that won't be happy when their scout comes home with a broken ankle or worse?  I don't think many parents would be as understanding as I am if they found out no leader was present when their son was injured, no matter the reason why.  I don't think it matters how many times you explain things in a meeting or email, they'll still be upset.  It's not just an angry parent but other headaches that could result from that.