thrifty

Doing this would also result in assigning a monetary value to the SM conferences if the troop works like ours.  Every campout has a fee that's paid by any scouts attending.  Of course we all want scouts camping but a scout would have to pay the fee and attend the campout to have the conference.  Maybe the scout doesn't want to go on a specific campout or cannot afford the extra expense ($25 minimum for us) so a conference would be delayed one or more months until the scout attended?  It seems like this rule has been made for no reason other than to force older scouts to attend campouts that they may or may not have attended otherwise.

Doesn't surprise me at all.  I see that kind of attitude often with newer leaders that are only in it so their kids can Eagle.  

I believe in following the rules with a little common sense mixed in.  That being said, I will also say that I despise the swimming requirements.  My son had swimming lessons when he was younger but we are never around water.  When it came time for his First Class swim requirements, he could not do it.  We don't own a pool.  Don't know anyone with a pool or any body of water.  Wife and I are able to swim but do so poorly and could not teach how to do so.  We ended up spending $400 for a family rec center pass because one of us had to go in with him because of his age.  We then spent several more hundred on swimming lessons.  Just for him to pass a BSA Swim test one time.  I do believe that knowing how to swim is important but several years later and he's never been swimming again.  He takes an automatic fail on the camp swim test.  The troop doesn't do water/boating type of activities.  That was a lot of money just to pass that one requirement.  If he were in some type of water accident, I don't think he'd be any better or worse off then he was before passing the swimming requirement.  He earned Hiking instead of Swimming.  Just because someone has passed a swim test does not necessarily prepare them for anything.

1 hour ago, T2Eagle said:

The language NJ quoted pretty clearly states the SM can't deny a blue card, or more particularly his signature on a blue card, or in any way prevent a scout from working on a merit badge with a counselor of his choice when he wants to work on it.  The SM can/should have a discussion with the scout, but after that discussion proceeding with the mb and the counselor is left up to the scout.

Want to enlighten us as to what may be going on in your unit?

A scout completed all of the requirements for a MB prior to getting a BC.  Scout contacted SM for a BC so that he could meet with a counselor, discuss and earn the MB.  SM was unhappy the scout completed the MB requirements prior to a discussion with SM.  SM did not fulfill the request for a BC.  (I am now repeating what I was told because I was not in the meeting)  SM advised scout to decide on a counselor (maybe even contact one?) and then come back for a BC. (this is an SM of several years and I think he knows this is not correct)  This is not a MB that has any unusual pre-reqs, it's not an age thing either.

My understanding of how things should work is simple.  Scout can work on MBs at any time (with a few exceptions).  It does not matter that scout completed requirements prior to getting a BC.  SM's job is to recommend a counselor and give the scout a BC.  Per the info I posted earlier, SM cannot deny request for a BC.  Unfortunately, if it is not stated clearly and precisely somewhere that SM cannot refuse a request for a BC, there is no point in discussing anything further.

The old forum posts had links to the Bryan blog where it is clearly said.  There may be no writing that says a blue card can be denied but there's no writing saying it can't? 

Here is the link to the blog that addresses this but it's 2013. I don't have a copy of '13 GTA and if it is directly said in that publication, why would it not be included in '17?

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2013/12/23/ask-the-expert-mailbag-merit-badges-blue-cards-first-class-requirement-10/

The excerpt from Chris Hunt, advancement team leader for the Boy Scouts of America.is below.

"The policies regarding blue cards changed with the release of the 2013 edition of the Guide to Advancement. See topic 7.0.0.3. Unit leaders do not have the authority to refuse to give a Scout a blue card.

The signature on a blue card signifies, simply, that the unit leader has had a discussion about the badge with the Scout and that the Scout has been provide the name of at least one registered and approved counselor."

I'm looking at a PDF of the '17 guide to advancement section 7.  I do not see anything indicating a scouter may or may not deny a blue card.  Am I missing it?  Is it elsewhere?  Is it inferred?  I'm familiar with the older forum posts and previous links to Bryan on Scouting but those are all several years old.  What current item can I reference to clearly indicate denying a blue card is prohibited?

edit:  I've also had the idea to look into adult team building games and share those with him.  He's been to NYLT and I know they've done some stuff there.  I usually roll my eyes when I have to do this kind of team game as an adult but I have to admit I recently did a few that were fun.

On ‎8‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 9:52 PM, desertrat77 said:

Patrol time was traditionally utilized in two ways:  planning for the troop or patrol outdoor activity that month, or sharpening scout skills that were based on the theme of the month, and the competitive game that followed patrol time. Outdoor activity planning:  menu, food list, duty roster, looking over patrol gear for cleanliness/accountability/good repair, arranging transportation, and such.  If the event was a camporee, the patrol leader reviewed the camporee package, discussing special requirements, competition, expectations, etc. 

Thanks 'rat.  I like what you've described but unfortunately the troop and therefore the patrols don't usually work like that.  Too much adult interference.  There's no theme and most things are left to the last minute.

On ‎8‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 10:05 PM, MattR said:

First of all, get a list of ideas, have the scouts vote on what they'd like to do next, and bring that much gear around to every meeting until it's used.

I think this is a great idea.  This is the kind of leadership qualities that the wife and I emphasize to him and it would give him time to prepare.  When he joined the troop a bunch of the older boys played cards at camps.  When the older boys aged out the card games stopped.  I'll suggest that.  He also has some small travel type dice and camping games that don't get used.  I am concerned the adults will decide a game is disruptive but its up to him if he wants to try it.  A lot of his work will be convincing adults that meetings don't have to be boring where you sit around and try to stay awake. 

On ‎8‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 9:02 AM, DuctTape said:

Get a copy of a 1950s Patrol Leaders Handbook. There are a ton of games and patrol activities. And much better info re: Patrol Method too.

I think I found a PDF version.  http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/patrolleader.pdf.  I forgot there was a PL Handbook.  He had a new version but it belongs to the troop and is passed down each election.

So my son will most likely be a PL for a 3rd time (not in a row).  One of the things he does not like about troop meetings is how patrol time works.  Patrol time is something that patrols do when nothing else is going on.  For example, a 1.5 hour meeting to do a 10 minute camping meal plan would result with no other plans for the evening and the patrols would have patrol time.  Because patrol time isn't planned and all of it is spontaneous, it results in the patrols just sitting around talking about the latest video games, etc..  Sometimes they review younger scout books but this isn't needed all the time.  There's nothing wrong with sitting around bonding but it happens often enough to discourage him from wanting to go to meetings because they are boring.  He can't change a lot of things because it comes from the adults but I've encouraged him to change what he can if he doesn't like it. 

Does anyone have suggestions or recommendations on how to find patrol time ideas that can be spontaneous?  He won't be able to have gear ahead of time or be able to plan something specific in advance and most of the time everything is indoors.  I'm hoping for ideas that he can have written down in his day bag and just pull something out when they have patrol time and the 5 or 6 scouts can have some fun or do something different.  I appreciate any assistance.

I don't know why there is a  problem with black robes.  Black robes are cool!

How do you find these?  Local news, dumb luck, random internet searches?  I appreciate you sharing these for several reasons.

On ‎7‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 5:54 AM, coleman07 said:

Curious what lodge your son will be joining? In our lodge, if the weather got too bad, we would put the candidates in an open sided shelter. I really doubt your son will be allowed to create a "tent" like structure. Instead, we rolled up inside our 12 x 12 blue ground cloth. I have actually gone through the Ordeal many times and when it rain, I would just roll up in a  cocoon. Because rope and stakes are not that much equipment, maybe you bring them and have him ask the people where he registers for the weekend if he can have the stakes and rope. If not, just take them home otherwise your son keeps them for the night. I am too much of a softie.  I hope it doesn't rain during the night of his ordeal. The planned challenges are already memorable but, if it does rain and he has to stay outside, he may not enjoy it at the time but that memory and accomplishment will always be remembered. It seems like the tough stuff is what we remember the most in our lives. I won't forget to bring 2 flashlights when going a mile into a lava cave and having my only source of light go out and just feel the walls all the way to the entrance of the cave. 

Is your son excited about his Ordeal? I joined long ago in the 70's when it seemed like the Ordeal was the lodge testing the candidate. It has really improved to the point that it is clear or should be, that its the individual testing himself and if he goes into it with that attitude, I think it will be a memorable weekend, maybe not fun at the time but later when he gets his sash I can see his happy face feeling the arrow on the sash and looking down at it with pride. I hope all goes well for your son!!!!

Would you let us know how it went?

coleman, I'd rather not say what lodge just to be discrete but we are by the Great Lakes.  I've never rolled up like a cocoon in a rain fly before.  I will advise my scout that he may need to do that.  I agree that the tough stuff is what I always remember.  I've always enjoyed this quote, "The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."  I have had my share of challenges in life and they have all made me stronger, even the ones that almost killed me.

He plays it cool and laid back about everything but he let out a little squeak of excitement when he got the email.   The wife and I are hoping OA will renew his interest in scouting.  His troop focuses on T21 and reaching First Class so as the scouts get older there is not as much interesting stuff being done.  There are a few other scouts in OA and a few leaders elected as adults but OA is never discussed except at election time.  We don't know how active the lodge is but I'm willing to drive him to meetings and campouts to learn more.  The challenge for us will be to get him out of his comfort zone and meet new friends at OA instead of just the friends he already has in the troop.

Thanks for the words of encouragement.

Thanks for the responses.  I'll send him with the rope and stakes just in case and if anyone has a problem he can blame it on dad.  Not really worried about him getting wet, tired or hungry, I like to think he can tolerate more than most of the other scouts just because we do a lot of activities as a family.  We just completed his 20 mile for the hiking badge a few weekends ago and he had no problem with that (but I was exhausted). 

"Burrito" style camping just didn't seem to me like what they would have in mind when asking him to bring the ground cover and rainfly.  Makes me claustrophobic thinking about it.  Other items were CLass A, backpack, work clothes and gloves, sleeping bag, toiletries, extra clothes, flashlight, water bottle.  No knife on the list.

The lodge might be willing to work with a candidate, I wouldnt' know but the paperwork says the last available Ordeal is a date in August and if they miss that then they will need to be re-elected to attend.  The troop election was in Feb.  It's kind of funny that it was so long ago, he didn't even remember the troop having elections.  I've been in similar groups and I get the surprise factor but it was more of a negative surprise in our household because now we need to rearrange schedules and I have two important meetings the same day that I will then have to rush home and pick him up and get him to the camp.  If people knew in Feb, then I feel the parents should have known also.  Like I said in the original post, he didn't go to camp this year but we would have tried to drive him (several hours) to the camp for the call out and then back home.  Nothing I can do about it, just my two cents.

My son will going through his Ordeal in a few days.  We both know that he is to sleep under the stars.  The packing list includes ground tarp and rain fly along with work gloves, etc...  Maybe I'm over thinking this, but it doesn't say anything about rope or stakes or anything else that might secure the rain fly.  I assume it is ok for him to bring rope and stakes?  It is currently scheduled to rain at some time during his Ordeal.  The packing list is short, I wouldn't want him to get in trouble for bringing something he should not have.  How does someone secure a rain fly without some sort of support?  I know I can email the OA team but thought I would ask here, it would probably be faster.

Also, just to rant for a moment, we did not find out about him being a candidate until half of the Ordeals were already over.  The OA email was received as soon as the troop came back from summer camp.  He was not at summer camp to get called out.  I assume this is due to all of the secrecy over who is elected but c'mon, this is summer, families have vacations planned, etc.. 

We had a scout turn 18 and Eagle right before he left for college.  There was no time for a ECOH.  He was probably home for holidays and such but it wasn't until the following summer that we honored him with a small ceremony during a regular scheduled meeting.  It was nothing fancy but he seemed happy and it felt right.  He was not active in anyway after turning 18 so we didn't need to do it but he deserved it. 

In our troop, the parents and scout are responsible for most of the ECOH planning.  The troop buys the cake.  I've seen very fancy ECOHs and a simple one.  To each their own but the parents/scout creates the invites and hands them out at the meetings.  The committee is also notified so they can get the cake and put it on the troop calendar.  Troop email reminders are sent out encouraging scouts to attend and some scouts should be there for the description of ranks and flag presentation.  SM usually says a few words along with anyone else.

I've bought a lot of old shirts that have glued patches.  Boiling the glue loose and gently scraping after pulling out of the pot has worked well on all but one.  There may still be discoloration on the tan shirts but can't complain about free or cheap.  Used troop shirts usually have sew marks from switching patches or stains on them anyway. 

4 hours ago, 69RoadRunner said:

Whoever thought that a group that I'm guessing was 99% boys would dance clearly knows nothing about boys.

Our troop has been to the same camp for the past three years.  It has a Root Beer Cantina twice during each camp week.  The cantina is at the outdoor pavilion and the second day is when parents can visit.  There is also a dance and popular music.  I've only witnessed this once but there were lots of scouts having fun on the stage and dancing and cutting loose. 

1 hour ago, David CO said:

Do you think they are doing this to accommodate girls in scouting?

My school does this sort of thing all the time. Almost all of the teachers are women, so they always gravitate towards the girl stuff.

I don't know how many years the camp has been doing this but it was before the more recent changes regarding girls in scouting.  I don't like dancing but can it really be considered "girl stuff?"  Sorry but I think this is a little narrow minded.  I thought vary highly of the young scouts that were on the stage dancing and having fun because they wanted to and were not concerned about the other self-conscious scouts sitting on the benches too worried about embarrassing themselves.    The scouts were doing line dances and singing to their favorite songs.  I've attached a picture that's not very good so that way people cant be identified.  I have some much better photos that show how much fun some of our scouts were having.  I remember having a dance at the non-scout co-ed camp when I was young (over 30 years ago).  That was a traditional slow dance with boys and girls together and of course I didn't want to do it at the time.

wow, that picture I posted is much bigger than I thought it would be. 

maybe this will help.

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2017/07/10/changes-to-eagle-palms/

23 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Perhaps those adults did not wish to register online to take the YPT course?

Perhaps but considering this was for adults that are already registered as leaders or committee, wouldn't they already have an online presence?  I don't know.  I have been registered online for a few years so I don't know what anyone else does but every committee member we have was requested to do online training last year so unless they didn't do it then, they should have a login i.d.  I think having training at the committee meeting is a fine solution and I hope it accomplished what it was supposed to.  I think it's ironic that adults that are scarce at troop or committee meetings would all of a sudden show up at a meeting to do training that they could have done at home but stay home when there are meetings when they should attend.

I received an email from our CC requesting adults come to our next committee meeting because a district rep would be going through the training first hand so that adults wouldn't need to go online.  I thought the whole point to having it online was for convenience but seems like a good idea if anyone showed up.  I had already done the online training and was not in attendance.

maybe you can use some ideas from here.  Their theme was Gladiators but I think it's close enough to medieval.

https://longspeakbsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/MV-IP-2018-Spring-Camporee-Leader-Guide.pdf

Somewhere during my many searches for ideas I found an old camporee link that had pics of the scouts in the roman tortoise shield formation with cardboard shields I think.  Don't remember what they were doing or what link it was but looked like a lot of fun.  Similar techniques are used in the movies to storm castles.  If you are allowed to use water balloons or garden hoses, that might make for an interesting activity and educating at the same time.  I don't see how it could be win or lose but teams of campers could try to reach a goal and stay as dry as possible.

23 minutes ago, gblotter said:

 Oh yeah - I forgot that your liberal door only swings one way (against boys).

I may be taking this out of context but I felt the need to reply.  There are many "liberals" that are not happy with the new direction of BSA including myself.  There are also "conservatives" that I know that are thrilled that their daughters will be joining BSA. 

Wow.  Sounds familiar.  I don't have any advice but you have my sympathy for what its worth.  These types of situations are why my family stepped back from scouts and the reason I found this forum to begin with.  We were dedicated and it was not easy but decided that our ethics and sanity were not going to be compromised by others. 

3 hours ago, TMSM said:

We provide tents, ground tarps, dinning fly for each patrol(different colors), patrol boxes will all the required cooking gear, small dutch oven tables, charcoal stove (we only do propane at summer camp),water jugs, dutch ovens. We have 30 tents, 6 backpacking tents, 5 pup tents and 14 dutch ovens. Every bit of equipment is marked with 1 of 5 colors and each patrol is assigned a color, this helps to reduce arguements when someone didnt pack their (stove, tent, jug etc).

Did you mark the dutch ovens somehow?  I could never find a good idea on how to mark those so they could be easily identified.    

At least they tried.  definitely a lesson to be learned.  we use an abbreviated year/number to designate how old the tent is.  18-01 for example.  We just use black sharpie on everything.  scouts receive whichever tent is pulled out of the trailer when they are standing there but this number is entered into the log so that the two scouts sleeping in that tent are now responsible for it.  If they open it and find something missing, the first people to be asked will be the previous two scouts.  Usually this would result in blank stares and I don't knows but it still emphasizes responsibility.  During use the tent number designates who should be in certain tent, billy and joey are in tent 18-01.  After using, one of the scouts assigned to the tent will take it home and clean it so the number also helps keep track of who has the tent at all times.  This is assuming the tents actually get entered into the QM log as they are supposed to be. 

Our troop has a big problem with gear not being returned and items disappearing so this numbering system is critical.

2 hours ago, Saltface said:

I’m surprised how many have said they have to pay site fees in order to camp. Do your local national forests not allow primitive camping? (Or are your groups too large for dispersed camping?)

only national forest in our state is over 3 hours away so not logical.  I'm not familiar with nat. forest costs.  Are you saying it's free to camp there?

nevermind.  just saw shortridge's response that they are free if camping is available.  thx