The Latin Scot

2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

That said, religious bigotry and intolerance have no place in this conversation. 

That's quite the claim to make after lambasting our faith in this way, don't you think? 🙄

So, as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I have just a few things I want to address:

1. Please do not refer to our religion as "the Mormon Church." That name was first used as a derogatory term by mobs and persecutors who actively sought to harm and exterminate our people, and though its use has come in and out of vogue (even amongst our own), it is no longer the proper way to address our faith. We are The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You may shorted it to "The Church of Christ," or "The Restored Church of Christ," but "Mormon" is not the correct term for us any more. Please address us respectfully. 

2. This is a Scouting forum, is it not? Yet why is it that we so often find threads here that proceed to criticize or pick apart our religion? I don't see this happening with Jewish, Muslim, or Protestant faiths, yet ours has repeatedly been the subject of threads trying to dissect our religious practices, even though we no longer sponsor Scouting and have been well out of it for over a year and a half now. The Church is no longer a part of Scouting; let it go.

3. There are so many false claims about our Church's practices and policies in this thread, especially in @Muttsy 's opening post, that they could lead a lot of people to believe things about our religion that are false if this continues. For those who are not of our religion: there are many misleading claims about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in this thread. Read with a discerning eye.

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At some point, criticism of this nature becomes less about bona fide child safety and more about having found a convenient bludgeon to beat up on institutions we are already predisposed to dislike.

Amen to this statement. I see this far too often on these forums, though fortunately, far less here than in other places. I am grateful to both my fellow members of the Church and those who understand our Church's position who have done a far better job than I could explaining and illuminating where we stand.

MODERATORS: I wonder how much of this thread is relevant to the purposes and designs of these forums. This subject matter is, frankly, unrelated to Scouting, especially as our faith no longer partners with the Boy Scouts of America. I suggest that this discussion does not fall within the parameters of this website's intentions, and so, perhaps this is a conversation that ought best be had on some other forum at some other time. And if the thread does remain, please include a disclaimer clarifying that many of the claims made about our religion in this thread are false or misleading, and that this topic is not as much about Scouting as it is about the policies and practices of a particular religion. That would seem fair to me. 

"Let me call you brother;

I’m a Scouter too.

Let me hear you whisper

All the Scout Law through.

Keep the Scouting Promise

In your heart so true.

Let me call you brother;

I’m a Scouter too."

On 5/8/2021 at 5:57 PM, RandomScouter said:

(just a) Random Scouter

There's no such thing as "(just a) random Scouter." Every contribution matters, and we are more than happy to welcome yours here. Thanks for saying hi; I look forward to learning from your comments and insights soon! 😉

I am also very disturbed that all of the family/family history/community connection adventures are being retired. Family Stories, Earning Your Stripes, Tiger Tales, Hometown Heroes, Beat of the Drum, Looking Back Looking Forward, Project Family, Build My Hero - most of the adventures we are losing are not STEM related, but those that connect us to our families, our communities and our history. Honestly I was always surprised that none of these adventures were required, and now to find that they are all being retired - the more I consider it, the more troubling I find it. 

Technically that is not an official adventure, but rather a "preview adventure" though I find that nomenclature, like that particular adventure itself, superfluous and irrelevant to Scouting. Unlike the Protect Yourself Rules adventure, which I strongly feel needs to become a required adventure at all levels immediately. 

I actually have a number of friends who are color blind! And so was my hero, Mr. Rogers. In face, his color blindness was so severe that he never actually knew what color sweater he was wearing in each episode, and he couldn't tell the difference between pea soup and tomato soup except by tasting them. But he certainly seemed to get a lot of fulfilment out of his life nonetheless, and he passed that on to the children he inspired as well - I being one of them. ☺️

On 4/14/2021 at 8:01 AM, David CO said:

Until the bankruptcy, I've never given a thought to these paintings.  Never made any effort to see them.  If I've gone this long without seeing them, while they were on public display, I see no reason to be concerned about them now.  

And thus it is in life; about those things of which we know nothing, we seem to care but little; we never feel the lack of that with which we have never been filled, and thus we never know the magnitude to which our souls might have been expanded, nor the heights to which our joys might have reached.

I have been privileged to see two magnificent Rockwell exhibits in my life. Both deeply and thoroughly changed me.

One was back in 2013 at the Church History museum of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Salt Lake City while I was living up in Utah. The display was in celebration of the Church's hundred-year collaboration with the Boy Scouts of America, and featured nearly all of the paintings owned by the BSA loaned to the Church for the occasion. It was profoundly moving; I wasn't a Scouting leader then, but I was after all an Eagle Scout, and his paintings inspired me in such a way that I felt I had been spiritually prepared to take on the role of Scout leader when the call came not-quite two years later. There is a powerful, humane dignity to his art that reflects the nobility and heritage of what we are and what we do in Scouting; his paintings capture the best in us, and when I became a leader, I wanted to be the kind of person depicted in his paintings - full of mirth and excitement and fun, but also dignity and reverence and humanity.

A few years later at Brigham Young University (my alma mater), there was a tremendous exhibit of his works borrowed from the Stockbridge museum that included, among other works, the entirety of Rockwell's paintings for the Saturday Evening Post (323 covers!), his series of civil rights movement paintings, and various Scouting works. Again, a breathtaking exhibit that had me alternating between fits of delighted laughter and moments of profound reflection and tear-filled grief. It was, like the exhibit I saw before it, a life-altering experience. I think Rockwell's paintings stand as one of the greatest testaments of what Scouting has meant to this nation for over a hundred years, and they are, I would say, one of the organization's greatest treasures, worth as much as any property, campground, or financial asset, and with a value infinitely beyond that of their mere monetary worth.

I know my Scouting service has been hugely influenced by Rockwell's works. They have inspired me to be a better leader, a nobler person, a kinder servant, and a more faithful believer. I think that, for those with open hearts, they can be some of the greatest motivators Scouting can possibly offer. 

Welcome to the forums @acollings! I have a lot of friends in Layton from my time at BYU, and my best friend is from AZ, so I am sure there are a lot of connections there - welcome welcome, and don't hesitate to share your experiences and bring you questions and comments here! All are welcome! 😄

34 minutes ago, awanatech said:

"Helping other people" is what the Scouts (youth) are expected to do. That same standard does not apply to Scouters, especially at the national level.

I can only hope this remark is being made sarcastically or facetiously ... 🤨

6 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

... Speaking of "Knots",  why not other knots besides square and overhand? 

My $0.01,

I have ALWAYS wondered this! Why not use different knots to represent different types of awards? Square knots for youth achievements, bowlines for heroism awards, two half-hitches for training awards, et cetera. It would add both variety and specificity to the insignia which merely using colors doesn't convey as effectively. A well-spent $0.01!

The irony I observe is that all those who brush of this issue claiming that Scouting is supposed to be "fun" don't seem to be having very much fun commenting on the subject. 😄

Again, I will tread lightly on the matter this time around. Those who make a big fuss over compliance with what should be a crystal clear, easy-to-follow protocol that takes only a few minutes of tailoring to obey, reveal more about themselves than a simple desire to "have fun and enjoy themselves." 🤨

😅

I had noticed the very same thing; it took me five minutes to get logged on this morning. It seems to be working much better now though already.

50 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I don't know Latin Scot, I've watch a lot of scouts ask adults about their knots with a real curiosity. You may be offended with the appearance  (...)

In truth I wouldn't articulate my sentiments as being offended as such (it takes far, far more than this kind of thing to offend me, if indeed anything can these days), but I am ... well, I suppose disappointed is the best way to describe my feelings in such cases, although some Scouters get so defensive about their preciously-perceived privilege to put on airs that I do sometimes find myself feeling embarrassed for their sakes, or even indignant. But not offended. The policy is articulated plainly enough in the latest Guide to Awards and Insignia; thus, those who choose to ignore it make their attitude towards the standards and expectations of the BSA perfectly clear. My job is neither to correct nor concern myself with such.

Offence is a feeling in which I chose long ago not to indulge, for the which I am perpetually grateful. We get ourselves into a lot of trouble when we allow matters of propriety and taste to become matters of personal honor, and a topic like this, I have learned, is ripe with individuals waiting to lash out at all those whose feelings on the matter may be different from, or even actively oppose, their own. So I will, this time, try to remain cordially passive about the subject, intense though my own feelings on the matter may be.   🕊️

Boy, I feel as if I have covered this topic SO MANY TIMES over the past few years ... but suffice it to say, I think that to ask "what's the harm?" is to ask the wrong question. The better question is to ask "what message am I sending to the youth and to other leaders by the way I wear my uniform and its insignia?" 

When I see somebody with enough knots to make a third-world general blush, I don't feel any sense of awe, nor admiration; nor am I ever curious to know the "stories and experiences" that they feel I should be eager to hear with reverent ears. All I can think to myself is "a Scouter with this much supposed experience should know better. A Scouter with this much supposed experience should, one would think, be aware of current uniforming standards, and be modest enough or humble enough to abide by them."

A Scout, and Scouter, I hope, is obedient, even when it pertains to such "trivial" details as complying with present-day uniform expectations. So, yes, I agree that wearing an excess of insignia does share something of our journey - but sometimes, it may share parts of that journey that may not necessarily reflect the best or wisest paths that we have trod. 

2 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

"You can’t earn this badge any longer, but from 1911 to 1912, Scouts could earn the Master-at-Arms Badge by “attaining proficiency in two of the following subjects:”

• Single-Stick - CHECK ✔️
• Quarter-Staff - CHECK ✔️
• Fencing - CHECK ✔️
• Boxing
• Ju-Jitsu
• Gymnastics
• Wrestling

According to MeritBadge.org, The Master-at-Arms badge was one of the original 14 “Badges of Merit” issued by the Boy Scouts of America in 1910 in the temporary “Original edition” of the BSA Handbook.

It was not included in the 1911 edition of the Boy Scout handbook."

I WANT THIS BADGE!  🤺 ⚔️

1 hour ago, mashmaster said:

Well I suggest you don't look into Venturing or Sea Scouting.  They are co-ed and are very successful.

That depends entirely on what you consider "success" to entail. Needless to say, I am extremely familiar with both programs, and I am not as impressed with them as you seem to be. I hope that doesn't come off too strongly, but it seems we measure success in different ways.

23 hours ago, David CO said:

Except for kilts.  Uniform kilts would be an even worst idea.   

HEY WAIT A MINUTE NOW

23 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Don't know. The Scottish troop I worked within the UK looked distinguished in their kilts, lovet hose, sporrans, and singh dubhs. I wouldn't mind wearing a Macleod of Lewis kilt.

MacLeod? MACLEOD?!?!? Augh, mine eyes!!! ARE YOU CRAZY MAN?!?!?

If, glory be, we ever did end up in kilts, (you know, post-Scouting apocalypse) I would think we would choose any tartan BUT MacLeod. We'd blind half the creatures in the woods, we would, in those blazing kilts! 

Personally, my own clan, Clan Ross, has a beautiful ancient hunting tartan that would go great with the Scout colors. Not that it would ever, ever happen, mind you, LOL. 😄

I agree; the idea of fully co-ed Scouting is, in my eyes and in my opinion, the worst possible thing that could happen to the BSA; it flies utterly in the face of what Scouting for boys is supposed to be, to do, and to accomplish, and all the good it is intended to do for boys will be lost when they are forced to share this program with girls. If they can no longer even have their own, separate troops without girls being part of them, the program loses the very sense of ownership that empowers, emboldens, and encourages boys to try new things, stretch themselves, and push their limits without the crushing self-awareness that, as anybody who has ever been human can attest, affects young boys when girls are present. 

The day the BSA decides to fully integrate a co-ed model into Scouting must, so help me, be the day I finally hang up my hat. There are some principles with which we can bend, but others, against which we must stand. Robbing our youth of their separate-gender privileges is one of the latter in my eyes.

This may be one of the most heart-breaking blows to the collective history of the Boy Scouts of America that I can imagine ...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/02/27/boy-scouts-chapter-11-bankruptcy-rockwell-paintings-sexual-abuse-victims/4820331002/

To lose this collection is, in my eyes, worse than losing any campground or property or lands. Absolutely catastrophic news.

Greetings fellow Scouter "from the crossroads of the West!" I lived in the beautiful state of Utah for 10 years (BYU alumnus here) and have a great deal of family there as well. Welcome to the forums - make yourself at home here! They're all good folks in these here parts. 😀

On 2/24/2021 at 5:46 AM, Protoclete said:

Er... what? I was just about to say welcome to the Transatlantic Council!

Either way, California or England, welcome to the forum!

Haha ... well, I confess @otakuforlife, I did have to look up your profile page just to be sure. 😄 But my guess was correct, and naturally I am always eager to see my home council represented here on the forums, even if it isn't quite as illustrious as that venerated olde borough of Londontown. 😉

3 hours ago, otakuforlife said:

Thanks for all the input everyone, I'm printing the application and will be handing it in at the next troop meeting...unless it would be better to take it to the council office?  Either way, looking forward to being apart of the organization for many years to come!

Yes, if it's an option, take it to the council office - but CALL first to make sure they are open. Our office has some strange hours, and it randomly closes on Wednesdays, so whatever you do, call before driving down there. I know Westminster is a bit of a drive to the council office, so do yourself the favor and make sure to take that extra precaution. Good luck! 😄

21 hours ago, otakuforlife said:

Thanks for the information! I found the application form online, I'm assuming it's valid if I printed and filled it out then handed it to the appropriate people? 

Yes; as long as it's the most recent version and it has all the correct signatures in all the correct places, you should be good to go.  👍

Good for you for getting your uniform already! If only I could get all the leaders in my troop to be so committed.  😄

As for getting yourself registered, there can be delays if you let others handle the job of getting it to council. The fastest, surest way to get yourself in the system as fast as possible will be to get the signatures from your unit leaders and then get the application DIRECTLY to our council's registrar, either in-person or scanned and sent in an email. She is incredibly prompt and utterly dependable - if you get it to straight to her, you won't have any problems. I will PM you her information!

Those "little monsters" had a standing invitation to join my Webelos den when I was a Webelos den leader. Soon everybody in the district caught wind of the fact that all the troublemakers, learning-impaired, and bad apples were welcome in my den, and in they came. But funny how, once those kids knew that I had already decided to love them before even meeting them, and once I proved that it was so by repeating it to them in no uncertain terms, over and over, every last one of them eventually came to believe that they were not as bad as they had been told. Because kids believe what grown ups tell them, and if you tell them they are bad news, of course they will act like it. But tell them they are good news and - well, I have never been proven wrong yet. And believe me, some kids have been determined to try! 😄

Never fear, I am not at all bothered by your post, but neither do I believe it (I made a choice long, long ago never to be offended by anything I read online). The children who display the worst behaviors  are those that need Scouting the most, and I have found that by learning to show the children love, rather than constantly telling them what to do (or worse, what NOT to do), those kids can become our most successful future leaders. I believe that the message in "Follow Me Boys" is a good model that should be studied more carefully - kids who seem troubled need love the most, and Scouting should always, ALWAYS be open to them. I wish I could take @RookieMom's Scouts from her and into my own den. They don't sound half as bad as some Scouts I have had, and I can tell just by reading the original post that they need a leader who is willing to take on their special challenges without getting exasperated by their antics.