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Hedgehog

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Posts posted by Hedgehog

  1. Doin' meals and meal cleanup as a patrol is one of da great learnin' experiences of Scouting.  If every lad brings his own food stash and refuses to participate in da meal prep or cleanup with the group, I'm wonderin' what we're teachin', exactly.  Well, it sounds like the lesson for the day is: "adults are making up a lot of rules on how the boys can run a program.  Way too much adult dictates here for my liking.

     

     

    Exactly.   There is no need for the boys to do anything as a patrol.  I mean, the concept of a patrol is an adult rule.  Also, forget the uniforms, that is an adult rule.  How about knife safety and getting a Tottin Chip -- more adult nonesense.  Oh, and the advancement rules and rank requirements... complete adult claptrap.  Give the boy a badge when they think they should get it regardless of the requirements.  :blink:

     

    To quote Baden-Powell, "Scouting is a game for boys under the leadership of boys under the direction of a man."  Playing soccer by picking up the ball and running with it is no longer soccer.  Boy Scouts without having the boys function as a patrol (which includes cooking as a patrol) is not Boy Scouts.

     

    @@Stosh, I know you are always looking to decrease the amount of adult involvement and I generally agree with you.  However, there are adult directions that are necessary so that what we are doing is Boy Scouts.  Given a decision of having the boys all bring their own food and having them cook and clean up as a patrol, in my opinion, the rules of the game of Boy Scouts require them to function as a patrol.

     

    That's a pretty much myopic point of view.  How is anyone going to get beyond hotdogs and pop-tarts if no one thinks outside the box?  Just because I don't want to eat my Spam on a stick doesn't make me a bad Scout.

     

    Sorry, but stifling creativity and experimentation and everyone has to eat the same thing prepared in the same way just isn't my thing.  Not when I can out cook 95% of my scouts.  When I get handed the fixin's for a foil dinner, the last thing I end up with is a foil dinner.

     

    Our former SM let the boys do what they wanted on campouts.  There was no patrol cooking.  There were no patrol activities.  There were no patrols.  When the new SM came in (and my son and I joined the Troop) that changed.  The boys now cook as patrols.  They use dutch ovens (based on them noticing how much better the adults were eating).  The older scouts are getting involved with the younger scouts in figuring out the menu so that they don't eat the same thing.  The boys know who has gluten allergies and who doesn't eat meat for religious reasons and adapt the menu for the boys.  The older boys automatically teach the younger boys how to do the cooking.  What caused this change?  The adults told the scouts they were required to cook as a patrol and the adults set an example with the cooking for their patrol.  

     

    @@Stosh - My question is do you think that the adult direction (in B-P's words) in this situation was inappropriate?

    • Upvote 1
  2. It is actually interesting to hear the opinions expressed on politics by scouts.  At an OA ordeal dinner a couple of political issues came up.  Much of what was said clearly mirrored things they have heard -- most likely from parents.  My perception was that all of the guys were expressing opinions on the same end of the political spectrum with some opinions being more extreme than others.  I asked a bunch of questions that probed their level of understanding of issues and asked questions that made them consider whether a generalization (despite making a good sound bite) would make good policy.  I also asked questions which tried to get them to think of principles and goals as opposed to policies - WHY your are doing something rather than WHAT you should do.  We also talked a little about the WHO in politics and to what extent personal traits of the candidates should matter.  

  3. You should worry more about the sleeping pad than the Tent.  If you aren't going to go the way of the Hammock (which you will spend equally the same amount if not more for a Pad and Tent) the invest in a Quality Air Mat (ThermaRest or Big Agnes)

     

    You can get a OneLink Eno and it has everything in it for 150.00.

     

     

    So true.  I have an REI Air Rail pad:  https://www.rei.com/product/845298/rei-airrail-15-self-inflating-sleeping-pad

     

    I have back issues and it is very comfortable, doesn't slide out the side and is lightweight.

  4. What's ironic is the mixed-aged patrols that offer a NSP option do nothing and know little on how to support it.  Thus it fails.  It's easy to blame the system at that point.

     

     

    As we like to say in the legal profession, assuming facts not in evidence.  We had someone who had served as a PL and SPL working with the NSP.  The only way we could have had more experience and knowledge was to have an adult do it.

     

     

    My point was that B-P used mixed aged patrols that were assigned by the SM and that seems to have worked out pretty well.  Some folks use the NSP concept well.  I like the idea but realized it didn't work in our Troop.  Unlike Stosh, I didn't attribute it to the complete and utter failure of our (very experienced, now Eagle) scout leading the NSP, but to the dynamics of our Troop.  The single age, NSP concept might work in other troops.

     

    I think that, unlike NSP VS mixed, use of the Patrol Method is absolutely critical, and failure to use it is a good part of the reason for the decline of the movement in the U.S.  Kids have less tolerance for fraud than adults.  They are promised one thing, in writing, and expect what they are promised.   (The failure to keep the fun and adventure promise is another big issue.)

     

    And "boy led" is just part of it, as I am also sure that you know.

     

    I don't think we are disagreeing at all. Regardless of how the patrols are set up, using the patrols as the basic unit of scouting IS what Boy Scouts is about.

  5. @@TAHAWK - I have no doubt if I posted that the SM in our Troop decides on the patrols for summer camp and appoints the PLs and APLs and then provides the names of the patrols and designs their flags like B-P did, our Troop would be firmly derided.

     

    The "it wouldn't work" comment was a reference to how folks on this forum seem to think that the minor details can derail the whole program.  Obviously, B-P's adult lead experiment did work to generate scouting across the world.

     

    As for leadership, leadership can be learned in many environments and through many different methods.  It can range from leaving the boys alone and expecting them to figure it out, to guiding the boys through adult interaction to even having the boys lead in limited circumstances with close adult supervision.

     

    I agree that it is not a critical issue, but I suspect others here do not agree.

     

    Although the BSA's statements on the patrol method is inacurate theology (we all know that the patrol method is the only method for boy scouts) but it really is just an attempt to explain that the two go hand in hand.  The patrol functions as the "just right" number of scouts that can be lead by a Patrol Leader.  With a 24 boy troop without patrols would be too much for one boy to lead.  So you break it down into three patrols of 8.  That is managable.  The Patrol Method allows a troop to be boy led.

    • Upvote 1
  6. From a Scout Leader's Guide to Youth Leadership, p. 38:  

     

    [At Brownsea, Baden-Powell] invited boys aged 10 to 17 (the average was 14) from different walks of life to participate in his great experiment.  Some of the boys were sons of B-P's friends in the military and had attended private private schools.... Others were sons of common laborers recruited from the "Boys Brigades" from nearby towns of Bournemouth and Poole. 

     

    When all Scouts had reported to camp, B-P divided the scouts into four patrols.  B-P chose names for the first scout patrols ever:  the Wolves, the Bulls, the Curlews and the Ravens.  B-P seeded each patrol with boys of different backgrounds and experiences.  B-P deliberately separated brothers into different patrols.  He mixed town boys wiht "publis school" boys in each patrol.  B-P selected the four patrol Leaders from among the public school Scouts in attendance."

     

    I can only imagine the slings and arrows that B-P would have to endure on this forum for what he did.  I can hear the chorus of "adult-led" or "forced patrols" and the predictions of "that is never going to work." :confused:

     

    I love to quote Richard Covey (the late author of The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People) when he says seek first to understand and then to be understood.  From being on the debate team in college and being a lawyer, I understand that everything cannot be black and white.  In reading all of the posts regarding the mixed age vs. new scout patrol, it is obvious that there are both benefits and disadvantages to each approach.  It is also obvious that whether a troop uses a new scout patrol or mixed patrols is or was an adult dictated decision - whether we admit it or not.

     

    Our Troop's lore is that a group of scouts abolished the same aged patrols because they didn't like how they were treated when they crossed over.  The felt ignored and segregated in meetings and on outings.  That was a failure of the older scouts.  But when these guys became older scouts, they made a decision to change how patrols were made up so that the older scouts were with the younger scouts and that the older scouts knew their job was to welcome them in as part of their patrol and to teach those scouts.  Over a period of around 8 years, the troop grew from 14 to over 50.  Last year, we had a large number of new scouts crossing over and tried to have a new scout patrol based on some wide-eyed ASM (that would be me) idea that new scout patrols were essential to the BSA model.  We assigned a former SPL who was a JASM to work with the patrol.  After three weeks, he reported back tothe PLC that the new scouts were getting restless, weren't that interested in learning skills and kept asking "when do we get to be part of a real patrol?"  The SM told the PLC to decide what to do and they decided to integrate the new boys into the existing patrols.

     

    We typically lose 1 scout out of around 6 that cross over.  I can tell you who that scout is by the end of June.  If they don't do a campout before the end of the school year and if they don't do summer camp, they won't be back in September.  Scouts don't stay or leave based on patrol structure.  Scouts stay or leave based on whether they are having fun.

    • Upvote 1
  7. I have these two tents: https://www.rei.com/product/862423/rei-quarter-dome-2-tentand https://www.bigagnes.com/Products/Detail/Tent/FlyCreekUL2.  My son typically uses the quarter dome for plop camping and I use the Fly Creek.  For backpacking, my son and I share the Fly Creek.

     

    We're thinking about getting these for our new Troop tents -- sort of a throwback but in a ultralight model: https://www.bigagnes.com/Products/Detail/Tent/scoutul22016

     

    But for a scoutmaster, THIS IS THE TENT: https://www.rei.com/product/897944/big-agnes-super-scout-ul-2-tentall for less than 3 pounds.

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  8. I agree that this isn't cause for overreacting but instead is a teaching moment. I would have a talk about being Morally Straight (not using drugs), Mentally Awake (thinking about the effect your actions have on another) and leadership (setting an example). My concern with it being addressed by the PLC is that is an ADULT RESPONSE. If an adult didn't make a big deal about this, the PLC would't care. A simple talk with the boy would let him know not to do that the next time and to consider how he would react if he saw another scout do that (a simple "that's not appropriate in scouting" would go a long way.

  9. And how many of the first year boys were ready for all of that?  You seriously had first year boys backpacked over 250 miles?  Out of 50 boys, how many did ALL OF THE ACTIVITIES listed in the above paragraph?  What was the breakdown by age?
     
    We typically averaged 3 to 4 out of 8 first year scouts on every campout, probably more for the sea kayaking and COPE / rock climbing.  The bicycling was 7th graders and up with the boys who just crossed over meeting them at the campsite.  The camping in lean-tos in 15 degrees was all 8th graders.  The 50 miler included one guy who just finished 6th grade, two guys who just finished 7th grade, one guy who just finished 9th grade and one who just finished 11th grade.
     
    The 250 miles of hiking and backpacking is cumulative over 3 years that I've been in the troop.  My son has logged 215 and I'm around 239.  Planning 50 more this summer (a 20 ile trek and a 30 mile trek).
     
    I think the only scout that did almost all of those activities over the past three years is my son (he's missed one campout and one urban hike).  I think he will be around 70 nights camping after this weekend.  There are another five or six scouts who probably did 90% of the activities.  Probably around 30 scouts did at least half of the activities.
  10. Getting back on track. I'm a REI member, and their sale start tomorrow. Since the Oldest, who is 12 and still growing like a weed I might add, I'm thinking about getting this pack for him:

     

    https://www.rei.com/product/895597/osprey-volt-75-pack

     

    What do you guys think? I like the weight, and really like how the torso fit goes up to 23".  And yes, he's at 17" already!

     

     

    When you are there, check out the Granite Gear Blaze : https://www.rei.com/product/824361/granite-gear-blaze-ac-60-pack

     

    It is under 3 pounds and adjustable.

  11.  

    And this is why we have 18+ year old MB counselors teaching the MB on Canoeing!  And if that isn't enough, that's why we have FUNCTIONAL Instructors doing POR work.  It's totally bogus to dump all the instructional work on the "Older Boys" all the time.  They earned the right to use what they have been taught.  Teaching boys to canoe and then have fun is the goal.  It is not so that they can teach others.  There's no value in teaching someone to canoe unless they can use it.  Simply teaching canoeing so that they can teach canoeing is really pointless in my book.  Your mileage may vary.

     

    Our mileage does vary.  We do a canoing trip down the Delaware river each year.  Anyone in the troop is permitted to do the trip.  We've done sea kayaking -- anyone in the troop is permitted to do it.  Horseback riding, backpacking, winter camping, rock scrambles, mountain biking, etc. - anyone can do it.  The older guys watch out for the younger guys naturally.  Had a 12, 13 and 14 year old do our 50 miler last summer.  

     

     

    I guess that's one of the pitfalls of the mixed patrols.  ALL the boys have to be in the kiddie pool because the inexperienced boys aren't safe in the deep end of the big pool then.  So much for Scouting adventures and challenges.  

     

     

     

     
    See above - nobody in the kiddie pool, our guys jump into the deep end.

     

    That is an issue of refocusing the attitudes of the boys, and has nothing to do with the patrol method.  How can the younger boys feel ignored if they have a functional SPL, a functional TG, functional Instructors all working with the boys to get them UP TO THE LEVEL OF THE EXPERIENCED BOYS AND ON EQUAL FOOTING WITH THEM?????  Why is it always necessary to drag the experienced boys down to the inexperienced levels.  Why not step up the game and raise the experience level of the younger boys?  Never could figure that out.

     

     

     

    By putting the younger boys in patrols with the older boys, they are stepping up to the level of the experienced boys.  It actually results in the younger boys learning faster than if they are kept isolated.  Additionally, it leads to higher retention because they feel like real Boy Scouts, not stuck together in a Webelos III den.

     

    One assumes that it is the adults making the same age patrols?  Sorry, I totally stay out of the patrol membership issue and they naturally want to be with their buddies and boys of the same age and experiences.  I would have to make an adult pronouncement/requirement in order to accomplish a mixed patrol situation.  I have no problem with the BSA recommended tier levels of NSP, Regular and Venture patrol set up because that's what naturally occurs with my boys anyway.

     

    To move our troop to same age patrols would require the adults making a pronouncement. 

     

    Our guys are used to answering that question. We have backpacking treks where the older guys start a day earlier and do 10 more miles before they meet up with the younger guys.

     

    So the groups are separated out right from the start?

     

    We have done low COPE together as a troop and then split up with the older boys doing high COPE and the younger boys doing a rock climbing wall.

     

    Again, the patrols are being segregated out and not operating as a patrol.  

     

     The boys are doing a boating campout where you can pick a canoe, row boat, kayak or sail boat depending on your ability.  

     

    And my boys would agree as a patrol and go have fun together.

     

     
    Activities like kayaking, canoeing and small boat sailing tend to be individual or two person activities.  It is hard to fit an entire patrol in a single canoe. :D  When all of the boys are on the water, they are having fun together with their patrol AND with other patrols.  Backpacking for our troop is an individual activity - we teach boys how to do it in a manner that they can continue to enjoy backpacking after they age out of Boy Scouts.

     

     

    Also, there is nothing wrong with having an outdoor program organized by the PLC at the Troop level.

     

    There is if one is not all that interested in the patrol method and have turned the unit into a boy-led, troop-method program.  It does wonders to destroy patrol continuity and esprit-de-corps.   And in the long run it's really difficult to run a troop program when the patrols are all 300' apart.

     

     With four patrols in our troop, that would require at least 8 adults camping out each month if each patrol did a different activity.  

     

    If that's what it takes to support a patrol-method program, then the answer is YES!

     

    That just isn't feasible.  

     

    That's just an excuse to maintain an adult controlled program.  I hear it all the time, "gotta have an ASM advisor for every patrol".  Okay that's the SM and 3 ASM's for a 4 patrol troop.  Two-deep with a parent chaperone and all 4 patrols can easily be covered.  Taking care of your boys applies to the adults as well.  They need to step up their game and make sure the adventure happens for the boys.  If something isn't feasible, then there's something seriously wrong with how that troop is structured.  And seriously how many 4 patrol troops out there can't come up with a SM and 3 ASM's.  Most adult run troops have twice that many adults hanging around.  And how often do the 4 patrols want to go in four different directions on the same weekend?  DO WHAT IT TAKES TO TAKE CARE OF YOUR BOYS.  My job as SM is to support the boys in their decisions, I make it happen per their request.  If this month the boys want to go in 4 different directions, I do what it takes to make it happen.

     

    Just because the outdoor program is organized as a Troop, doesn't mean the boys don't function as patrols on outings.

     

    And that's been addressed too.  A token gesture here and there on a troop run program doesn't make it a patrol-method troop. 

     

    The 8 person number was 4 patrols each needing 2 deep adult leadership for outings, NOT having a certain number of ASMs assigned to patrols.  We don't assign ASMs to patrols in the outdoors - that is what the PLs are for.  There is a mini-PLC meeting on Friday night when we arrive and the adults sit back until Sunday after everything is packed up.

     

    The assumption that all of a sudden a troop is a "Troop Method" troop or "Adult-Led just because the outdoor program is organized on a troop basis, is absurd.  Maybe I should have just said, "the Patrol Leaders at the PLC meeting decided that all of the patrols will do the same outdoor activities for each month during the year." 

     

     

    Seriously, Hedge, I see your point of view and as a UC, see it in many troops working quite well, but I also see a lot of boys dumping scouts after a couple of years because they never really get a chance to break out and do some really neat things unless they break up their patrols and ad hoc into high adventure contingents or going the Venturing route.  They have to abandon their patrol method to do either of these things. 

     

    Many years ago I was at a scout summer camp in a location far from my ingrown area of the world.  There was a group of boys in the next site over that didn't do any MB's didn't do any activities, just sat around, went up to the mess hall, came back, sat around the fire, went for a meal, came back hung out.... etc.  You get the picture.  I got curious and went over and visited with them.  It would seem that they were all Eagle Scouts, they had been buddies since Cub Scouts and this was their last hurrah summer camp before breaking up and going their individual ways in the world.

     

    It was that afternoon sitting with those Eagles that proved to me it is feasible, it is possible, it is the right thing to do and so I quit as ASM of an adult-dominated, troop-method program, found a struggling troop of 5 boys and went to work learning all I could on patrol method, servant leadership and functional adventures for the boys!  

     

    As a boy I had a bad experience in scouting.  I told myself I would never do to a boy what had been done to me.  I didn't realize it, but that was exactly what I was doing.  Not any more.  My boys deserve the opportunity to have the adventure that BSA promises through the boy led, patrol method program.  And that's what my boys get, the opportunity to be the best they can and want to be and that's how I see my job as SM. 

     

     

    We have no retention problems.  Yes, some of the older boys don't camp as much due to other constraints in their lives, but we have 18 year old ASMs that stick around after they have aged out.  Over the last three years, we've camped over 70 nights, hiked over or backpacked over 250 miles, sea kayaked, canoed, rode horses, biked 25+ miles to a campout, did orienteering courses, COPE courses, hiked waterfalls, did 15 mile lightweight backpacking treks, camped on the beach, camped in lean-tos in 14 degree weather, done urban hikes and campouts, done a 50 miler, had cooking contests while camping in cabins, camped in cabins with only a wood stove and outhouse in 10 degree weather, done long hikes in the snow, etc.  And guess what?  Any boy was welcome to join in the adventure.

     

    Do we have ad hoc patrols on campouts because all 50 guys don't make every campout?  Yes.  Do the guys function as patrols?  Yes.  Do the boys lead in the outdoors?  Yes.  Do I make the best coffee for the adults to drink?  No doubt.

     

    Just like with boy-led, there are degrees of using the patrol method.  Your way might work better (and I'm open to trying it if that is what the boys want), but the way our troop does it works within the structure of the boys WANTING mixed age patrols.

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  12. Maybe the inexperienced boys should be in a patrol of their own, take the Canoeing MB and develop their skills as a group rather than dumbing down the rest of the patrols.  Oh?  Someone has mixed the boys all up?  Well in that case dumbing down is the only option.  Older boys tired of same old same old gentle float down the river for the 4th time this season?  Is it any wonder to see attendance falling off well before the summer's over, but hey, the new boys will be experienced so they can take over next year's new boys and repeat the pattern yet another year.

     

    So was it the adult's decision that a monthly campout should include the whole troop.  If so why?  Why can't the monthly outings be reflective of the patrol method?  Or is the patrol method like the good china?  It gets dragged out only on special occasions?

     

     

    Yes, but the problem with having all the inexperienced boys in one patrol is that there are no experienced scouts to teach the skills because they are all shooting the rapids.  So you have the adults stepping up and teaching the skills to the den... I mean patrol.  Also, how is the older scouts deciding to segregate the inexperienced scouts to float in the kiddie pool taking care of your boys?  About 10 years ago the boys in our troop made the decision to have mixed age patrols because the boy leaders felt that when they were younger scouts they were ignored and looked down upon by the older scout patrol.  That dynamic of inclusion and friendship has become part of our troop's culture.

     

    As for the "same old float", shouldn't it be up to the boys to find a solution to the problem?  Rather than making an adult decision to have same age (i.e. putting the inexperienced folks together) patrols, should the boys figure it out?  Ask a simple question of "how can we do this so you guys get a greater challenge but the younger scouts don't feel left out?"  Our guys are used to answering that question. We have backpacking treks where the older guys start a day earlier and do 10 more miles before they meet up with the younger guys. We have done low COPE together as a troop and then split up with the older boys doing high COPE and the younger boys doing a rock climbing wall.  The boys are doing a boating campout where you can pick a canoe, row boat, kayak or sail boat depending on your ability.  

     

    Also, there is nothing wrong with having an outdoor program organized by the PLC at the Troop level.  With four patrols in our troop, that would require at least 8 adults camping out each month if each patrol did a different activity.  That just isn't feasible.  Just because the outdoor program is organized as a Troop, doesn't mean the boys don't function as patrols on outings.

    • Upvote 1
  13. Thanks for the advice and support, as the vision of a Boy Led troop takes another baby step forward in my home town.

     

    Well done.  Boy-led is a a continuum and your troop is moving in the right direction.  I like the "ladder" concept explained here: 

     

    http://scoutmastercg.com/ladder-of-youth-leadership-infographic/

     

    Our troop is between a 2 and a 3, hopefully moving closer to a 2.

     

    The irony is that moving an existing troop to be more boy-led, patrol-method  troop does require adult leadership.  Your troop's tradition of the "senior" patrol seems contrary to boy-led and patrol method because it is taking boys who are leaders and removing them from the patrol.  You were right to discourage that tradtition.

     

    They seem aware that elections turn into popularity contests no matter what you try to do, and although neither are at all unpopular, they seem aware of the fact that some of the super popular scouts are likely to win out in next week's patrol leader elections. And I think some of those new patrol leaders actually will do well and it will be good for them to assume a position of responsibility. I am proud of my sons because they both appear proud of what they have accomplished this year. There are patrols actually functioning as patrols for the first time in their experience of Scouting. But I am even more proud of the fact that they seem to understand and accept that they can contribute significantly to the patrol and to the troop regardless of any title. They are not power-hungry or greedy, and are acting in a more collaborative manner. (It might help just a bit that both of them already have their rank requirement signed off for their "position of responsibility" requirement for Life, but I will not allow that potentially self-serving thought to get in the way of my pride in their collaborative view about their roles in the patrols.) :-)

     

     I tend to think that elections go more toward competence and commitment than popularity.  Well, at least that is what I told my son who is running for PL next week.  :D

  14. I must respectfully disagree as I channel KUDU. Reprint the 3rd ed. SMHB volumes 1 and 2. From what I've been told and saw in a later SMHB  Green Bar Bill, all his other SMHBs are condensed versions of the 3rd. ed.

     

     

    Hmmm.  Will have to track that down.  In developing a leadership training program for our Troop's leaders, I've been reading this Working the Patrol Method and have ordered a copy of GBB's Patrol Leader's Guide.

  15. Only one problem with that Backpacker challenge - it's impossible to do 42.9 miles across 4 states on the AT.  The proposal starts in PA, goes through Maryland, West Virginia then Virginia.  Only one problem.  The AT in Maryland is 40.9 miles long.  In West Virginia, a section of the tral is along the border of West Virginia and Virginia but there is 4 miles of unshared trali in West Virginia.  If I've added them up together correctly, that's 44.9 miles through Maryland and West Virginia alone - which is 2 miles longer than called for in the "4-state challenge".

     

     

    The number is a little off.  Going South to North, you start at Penn Mar Road in Pennsylvania which is at 1054.4 from Springer Mountain.  You go past Shenandoah River Biridge is at 1012.5 from Springer Mountain which would be 41.9 miles.  It is then around 2.4 miles to the Virgina border skirting off on the Loudoun Trail to hit the Virginia border.  That makes it 44.3 miles.

  16. Interesting.  The progression really isn't a big deal.  Most of our guys do a 5 miler the first year at camp.  The ones who would go for the badge have done 10 miles a day with packs on.  The 20 miler is a little more difficult.  It's hard to find a 20 mile stretch of trail around here that doesn't have a lot of PUDS (pointless ups and downs).  That makes the 20 miles feel more like 30 miles.  But then again. how about doing 42.9 miles across 4 states on the AT in one day:

     

    http://www.backpacker.com/trips/maryland/appalachian-trail-four-state-challenge-pa-va/

     

    Maybe two days. :eek:

  17. I've lost where this conversation came from now....but I'll comment on the APL thing.

     

     

    That would be me ranting about the APL not being a position of responsibility.

     

     

     he really hasn't done much of anything as APL, but he has done every bit as much as the PL has....

     

    In my son's case, he has been more of the patrol leader than than the PL.  Also had served as a PL on outings more than anyone in the troop.

     

    he end, I can say confidently that he got little to almost nothing out of the PPt slide show (by his own admission and by my observation)

    but what he has received is a great lesson in a contest of popularity vs resume.  I think he was just a tiny bit disappointed initially, but really not all that much.  It truly was one of those shoulder shrugg moments.....ehhh.....oh look, can I have one of those cookies?

     

     

    I'm working on our training program  The first step is doing a leadership campout.  The second step was to decide to have the materials printed on 5 x 7 cardboard cards that are connected by two round binder rings (so they can flip through them or tear them out as needed).  It will cover the ILST materials PLUS teach real leadership.  I'll post the card deck when it is done for comments and feedback.

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  18.  

     

     

    I wouldn't recommend buying  a backpack that weighs more than 5 pounds.  I have a pack that weights 3 pounds and 14 ounces -- a pound and a half to two pounds lighter than the ALPS packs..  Even better: https://www.rei.com/product/824361/granite-gear-blaze-ac-60-packwhich is 2 pounds 14 ounces.

     

    My son has this backpack which weighs 3 pounds and 8 ounces and it works great:  https://www.rei.com/product/878460/osprey-ace-75-pack-kids 

     

    Spending an additional $30 to $40 to save a pound or more is well worth the investment.  Although it doesn't sound like a lot of weight, the majority of the weight that a backpacker carries is the pack, the tent, the sleeping bag and the sleeping pad.  My sense is you want a pack that is less than 4 pounds, a sleeping bag and pad that are less than 4 pounds and a tent that is less than 3 pounds for a total of less than 11 pounds for the big three.

  19. I've heard of scouts having their Eagle presented at a closing campfire during a troop campout.   A fire crackling in the background, the scent of wood smoke.     Mom and dad and others are present for the ceremony.   Low key but dignified.

     

     

    I love that idea.  I'll share it with my son and see what he thinks of the idea.  He's always loved the organized campfires at summer camp and there is probably no better way of signifying HOW he earned Eagle than doing the COH on a campout.

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