GeorgiaMom

I think you failed to understand my point. I never said "no big deal" those are your words' date=' not mine. Alcohol violations are generally given a pass in this society unless it involves a motor vehicle. Alcohol is much more likely to kill especially when considering interactions with other substances. I also never said anything about keeping this information from the rest of the troop. That would be nearly impossible anyway. Your points are valid, but don't put words in my mouth.[/quote'] I apologize if I mischaracterized you. Statements like "reefer madness hysteria" downplay the damage done by THC. GeorgiaMom

Let me clarify' date=' from a health and safety viewpoint I would be more concerned if it were alcohol, not legal. If one still subscribes to the "Reefer Madness" hysteria no one is going to change your mind but in reality one is much more likely to be a danger to themselves or others under the influence of alcohol than marijuana. This kid screwed up and it is ultimately up to the CO and Council how they want to deal with it. More importantly how this Scout deals with this setback will be the true test of how Scouting has influenced his character.[/quote']

 

 

You are entitled to your own view for your own children about "reefer madness", alcohol, etc. No other adult or scout has any business making this judgment call on behalf of my child.

 

In addition, my son is autistic. We've spent a lot of time and money on testing, therapy, and medications. We are exploring changes in diet and vitamin supplements to help with possible deficiencies.

 

Many think it's not a coincidence that autism rates have tripled since Monsanto introduced roundup resistant GMO corn and soy 15 years ago, along with so many other untested chemicals in our food.

 

I will be spending several hours today making my own yogurt, breads, and going to the farm to get my fresh dairy and produce. I just picked up $150 worth of supplements yesterday. Then, we're off to speech therapy.

 

Now ask me how much I appreciate a 15 year old giving my son weed behind my back with the knowledge of an sm who has decided in his own infinite wisdom ​that " reefer madness" is "no big deal".

 

Everything is a big deal when your child is failing in school and you're trying everything you can thing of to fix it. I was told that scouting can be great therapy for autistic kids. Please don't let the PC drug culture ruin that.

 

You can't dispute that weed is psychoactive. You can't possibly know what medications other scouts might be taking for medical reasons, or how THC might interact with those meds. This is a one strike offense. SM's should not have discretionary power to expose my child to this once they are aware of it.

 

GeorgiaMom

The other scouts and their parents deserve to know. If found out that the pack leaders knew a scout had attempted to give drugs to other scouts and allowed him to stay in the troop, I could never trust them with my son again. GeorgiaMom

"is there truly anything that is purely altruistic?"

I would say "no". We have many discussions on boundaries, giving, and receiving in our household as these were not modeled in a healthy way for me or for my husband. We do a lot of reading and discussing in an attempt to teach our children better than we were taught. We are also conservative Christians, so charity is a significant part of our church life.

I've taught my children that if you want to have friends, you need to be a friend. We look for ways in which we can proactively be kind among our friends and in our community. It is not altruism in that I do hope that when I need help, my friends will be there for me (and they have been). I think of it as investing in the kind of healthy and mutually beneficial community in which I want to live.

It is not quid pro quo in that I have no expectation for direct "payback" from friends I've helped. It is more like karma, where what goes around comes around. If you're known as a helpful person, help tends to be there when you need it.

We get closer to altruism when we devote time and money to those outside our community: money sent to missions overseas, food packed for an orphanage in Haiti (a recent church project), etc. Even then, there is a religious motive. We want to witness the love of Christ through helping others. So, even this is not purely altruistic.

Due to abuse in my childhood and early adulthood, I try hard to teach my children to be kind without being doormats. I want them to be altruistic, not masochistic. I was taught to be masochistic, giving too much and never receiving help or respect in return.

To use an example above, holding the door open for a lady whether or not she says "thank you" is altruistic. Holding the door open again for a woman who has just cussed you out as a patriarchal dirtbag is masochistic. It's about respect, both given and received.

I love men with manners. My man has manners. As I tell him, there's a reason I keep running to him whenever I get the chance. I'm not stupid. Treat me like a queen, and it will be good to be the king.... We are raising our dear son (9) to have wonderful manners, too. He already has girls fighting over him in 3rd grade. We expect he will be a sought after boyfriend, and a wonderful husband.

In the Vermont water vendor/cleanup crew example, as I understand it, a group of little boys aged 6 to 10 were told that due to offense from grown men in Texas, they were not allowed to sell water as a fundraiser (alongside many other controversial groups, I'm sure), but they were deemed acceptable to pick up trash.

In that case, I think the pack leader has it right. To send those little boys out to pick up refuse after they'd been treated in such a way would have been teaching them masochism. It would have been teaching them that they didn't deserve respect. That's a terrible lesson for a child. It's a lesson I was taught by an abusive father, and I would never want my child treated that way.

I think there are times when it is appropriate, and wise, to shake the dust from your sandals and move on, as Jesus recommended the disciples do in communities in which their message was treated with scorn.

And shame on the town council in VT for taking out their frustrations with the BSA on a group or hardworking responsible little boys. That's as bad as telling a child you won't buy his popcorn because you don't agree with the adults' stance or homosexuality, or telling a little girl you won't buy her cookies because you don't agree with the adults' stance on abortion. Leave the kids out of adult arguments.

GeorgiaMom

I, too, have seen some bullies do a 180 and turn into great scouts.

 

Each one needs to be evaluated individually. A generic rule for the troop would mean that at some time or another every boy would need to be kicked out.

 

Stosh

I don't agree with this. I have no problem with having a generic rule for serious infractions: deliberately hitting another child, misuse of a knife to threaten or hurt someone, etc. First offense: short suspension, face to face apology to child/ren who were hurt, and conference with Scout and parents. Second offense: Out of the pack/troop.

I strongly disagree with the notion I've read in many responses that this kind of hitting/fighting/stealing etc are just a normal part of being a boy and "every boy would need to be kicked out" at some point if we took a stand against this sort of behavior.

Please do not include my son in this scenario. He's never hit anyone in his life. He doesn't have a mean bone in his body. He is certainly not "Rockwellian" or perfect by any means, as an other poster asked. He forgets to clean his room, I got a call about him locking the boys bathroom stalls at school and climbing under them etc. There are many miles of difference between boys being silly and boys knowingly hurting people. We all know the difference.

If a Scout deliberately hurts someone, please don't wait for years to address it, allowing multiple Scouts to feel they have to leave the situation. Address it quickly, for the Scout's sake as much as everyone else's. The younger a Scout is when this kind of violent behavior is addressed, the better the chances of helping him stop.

I know bullies. My father was one. The therapist's term was "malignant narcissist". She explained to me that once people cross the line where they are willing to hurt others, physically or verbally, to increase their own self esteem and feeling of power and control, it's very hard to bring them back to socially acceptable behavior. Once empathy is gone from a person, it's very hard to get back.

I have a bit of a raw nerve on this topic. I know very well what it's like to be hurt over and over and told that "he'll get better and stop doing this, he can't help it, he has issues, etc." Abusers abuse people because it feels good, and they'll go on doing it as long as no one opposes them.

When youth group leaders excuse away this kind of behavior, justify it by laying blame on the home situation, or worst of all take no action, they are enablers. The leaders only hurt the bully and the victim, and they are complicit in the abuse by knowingly allowing it to continue.

As a parent, I will never, ever, allow my son or my daughter to be in a situation where they are physically hurt by another child (or an adult). I have no interest in organizations that think my child should tolerate being hurt while some other violent kid takes his time to get his act together. My child is not a punching bag.

Georgia Mom

Just wait until you have to go into a scout wall tent at summer camp and break up a knife fight. The parents were called to come pick up their boys. Of course they were out of council people and from 2 Midwest states away. At least only one set of parents had to come, the boys were brothers.

 

As first adult on the scene, I only had to disarm them and break up the fight. Camp got the easy part.

 

Another boy was kicked out of a different camp I attended because he stole something from the trading post. They caught him rather quickly because there weren't that many Eagle scouts in attendance that week.

 

BSA helps develop the values of scouting within boys. They don't come that way! For some it's a 7 year process. Others, maybe not so long.

 

I don't know what the world would be like if I got a whole troop full of boys like GAMom's son. I don't think I'd like it. I prefer to watch the progression from young boys to young men.

 

Stosh

I hope you're kidding. If I were ever expected to break up a *knife fight* as a leader in any activity, with kids or adults, I would be calling the police to handle it, resigning, and taking my kids elsewhere. That is insane.

Hmm...I love teaching kids like my son and my daughter, and many of their friends. They listen, behave, and treat each other with respect.

I think the BSA has to start delivering what they advertise, or advertising what they deliver. Is it a character and skill development program where respect for leaders and other Scouts is expected, or is it an outdoorsy reform school?

I do expect a certain baseline of behavior before kids enter a program like this. I expect behavior like hitting and throwing things to be left behind in preschool. I would be embarrassed if my elementary school age child ever acted this way, much less a teenager.

I think we have a different definition of "young boy". The people you are describing are not "young boys", they are not able to function in polite society. I would be ashamed if my five year old couldn't refrain from violence and stealing. If you find fulfillment in taking kids at this very low level of behavior and trying to rehabilitate them, that's great. The world needs you.

I didn't sign up my son to be in a Lord of the Flies, reform school atmosphere. I am investing a lot of time and money to have him learn skills, teamwork, and character above and beyond the basic expectations we've taught him at home.

GA Mom

 

When a kids does something wrong I think you have a very limited time to correct the behaviour before they forget what they did. So if a scout makes a mistake it needs to be addressed ASAP. They need to know that there actions are not acceptable and that they need to be corrected

Love the way you handled this. Wish you were in charge of my son's pack and future troop.

GA Mom

GAMom,

 

I understand the sentiment in terms of protecting your kids, however, how can you intervene in your child's behalf, other than talking to the parents (which seems to be a failure)? Are you going to take the older boy out of the Scout meeting and yell at him? Beat him? Call the police on him?

 

It sounds like in this case the troop is intervening. They just haven't finished the process yet.

It sounds like the troop has allowed this to go on for years, resulting in the loss of multiple well behaved Scouts. I can't honestly agree that they are intervening with appropriate strength and promptness.

There have been other situations over the years where my now 9 year old son and 7 year old daughter have been physically abused in school or in a kids' program.

When my son was in 1st grade, two 4th graders thought it would be fun to have one hold him while the other slapped him in the face -- on the school bus. A quick call to the school got decisive action, and the two older boys were reassigned to seats behind the driver. Problem solved. I am grateful for a school that doesn't allow bullying.

The worst instance of bullying for my kids was when my daughter was six years old and in an evening church AWANA program. When I arrived to pick up my daughter, she was crying in the corner with a big red welt on her face. Her head had been slammed into a table by an older boy. As I entered the room, the same older boy shoved another little one across the room where he slid under a chair and hit his head hard on the seat. I interved to stop the older kid from hurting anyone else and tried to take care of my daughter at the same time. The older kid was totally out of control.

I was the only adult in the room. I was the first to arrive for pickup.

The teacher had left 10 minutes early to pick up her own child from another program and had left the room totally unsupervised with 16 young kids. After I arrived and tried to calm things down, the leader of the program rushed in to ask "was anyone hurt?". Really? He knew the room was unsupervised but decided to chance it. You might rightfully ask why I wasn't volunteering. I was, in another program at the church.

I tried talking to the church and the parent, and got nowhere. Their concern was in "ministering to" the "troubled boy" who hurt my daughter, and they refused to have him leave. My daughter was absolutely terrified to go back, so we changed churches. This necessitated my son also leaving a program with good friends and going elsewhere.

So, when I have run into these situations, I do approach the leaders of the activity and the parents of the bully. If neither of those will take responsibility for keeping violence out of the activity, then I have to take my child somewhere else.

I find it very frustrating when some adults portray bullying and violence as a normal part of growing up. It isn't. I'm tired of dealing with absentee parents who don't invest time in raising their children, and then expect my child to tolerate being hurt.

GA Mom

For what it's worth, this is my take as a parent of a Webelo trying to decide whether or not Boy Scouts is the right place for my son.

When I hear about the new scout having dishes thrown at him, I see my son in this position. He is obedient and kind, and also a bit too deferential. He would be totally confused that an older Scout would be behaving in the manner described. He is also learning disabled, and doing his very best to keep up. I would be livid in that parent's shoes. If the troop would not intervene on my son's behalf, I would.

As a parent, I send my child to Scouts to learn a higher standard of behavior compared to many other youth activities. I expect the Scout law to be taken seriously, taught, and enforced. I expect my son to follow it (24/7), and I expect the other Scouts to respond in kind.

If I were the parent of the younger Scouts being bullied, some of which had left the troop, I would have to wonder why this abusive older boy is being enabled, coddled, and allowed to treat the other boys this way. It is totally contrary to the BSA's advertising of this program to me for my child. I would be very angry that my son was being physically abused in this manner.

As a former Cub Scout volunteer, I was told repeatedly by the District, the Pack, and the Council that "every boy deserves Scouting". No matter how the Scout or Scout parent behaved, telling them to leave was just not an option.

I think this attitude has been taken to an extreme, to the detriment of the adult volunteers and the well behaved Scouts like my son. Saying "no", or asking a Scout to leave if their behavior is this ridiculous cheapens the program, cheats the Scouts who are behaving well and doing their best, and drives off adult volunteers.

Accountability is toothless when telling a Scout to leave the program is not an option.

It sounds like this boy has been allowed to run roughshod over the other boys for much too long, years too long. The past can't be changed. I don't think anyone could argue that this boy hasn't been given abundant chances to change, especially after the Saturday conference the OP described.

Out of respect for the other Scouts, please get this boy out of troop now. And please do follow up wtih the young Scout who was treated in this manner. Silence = consent. In his family's position, I would be considering whether or not my Scout should return, and I would be very angry on his behalf that my son would be expected to tolerate such behavior.

My own experiences and those I read about are leading me to seriously reconsider whether Scouting is right for my son in the future.

GA Mom

I'm coming off of a very frustrating year as an (former) BSA volunteer, so please let me give a devil's advocate view. It may be pessimistic, but you did ask for opinions.

I have seen our own pack lose about 75% of the boys and about 50% of the adult volunteers over the last two years. I attribute this in part to lack of planning and running roughshod over the adult volunteers.

If you came to me as a parent and said "things aren't being done properly around here, we need to increase the attendance numbers", I would be looking for the door. I've been burned by leaders who knock themselves to get more boys attending with no thought to having adult volunteers in place to work with them. I hear similar from our District and Council. My perception and experience is that no thought is given to the fact that I have a schedule, other children, and a family. I eventually quit.

If I were in charge, I would start by building up the adult leadership before bringing in more boys. I would set boundaries and limits that would hopefully reassure volunteers that they will not be overwhelmed. For instance, I would set a reasonable den ratio: 2 leaders to 12 boys. And advertise that limit. When boy 13 shows up, let the parent know that they will need to step up to help start a second den for that age group. I have been the lone volunteer told I must accept 16 kids alone (in church), oh and by the way this one is in a wheelchair, and that one has anger issues, "good luck!". Never again.

When I asked the pack leaders and the district about requiring each parent to volunteer somewhere and/or setting a reasonable adult/boy ratio, I was told they couldn't do that as a matter of national policy. The BSA's rule is that no boy is turned away ever, and no parent is required to volunteer because if the parent can't or shouldn't volunteer, the boy will miss out. I can't work in that system. I actively avoid volunteer groups organized that way.

Plan ahead. Our CM and CC annoyed me to no end with last minute demands: "we have a mandatory leader meeting tonight", "I need you to organize a pack meeting activity two days from now", the CC calling me with last minute research for the packwide email on Wednedsay evening when he knows I'm in the middle of volunteering at church because he waited until the last damn minute (again) and now his failure to plan is supposed to be my emergency to handle.

Don't keep going to the same well every time. I and another mom became the go-to people last year. We were asked to everything and anything, mostly at the last minute. As other volunteers dropped out or moved away, the CM and CC made zero effort to recruit anyone new. They just kept coming to the two of us. By the end of the year, I was treasurer, achievement coordinator, record keeper, fundraising coordinator, and webmaster. My friend was in charge of all purchasing, including buying all the food and arranging all the stuff needed for 100 person campouts. Did i mention she was pregnant with two younger kids? By the end of the year, we both quit. The CM and CC appear to be dumbfounded that they have to do all this themselves now. I have no sympathy. If one person already has one major job, quit asking them. Go find another parent to step up.

Start with your adult volunteers. Show them you respect their time and effort, and they will offer it. Most want to be involved with their kids. Ask everyone to do something, instead of asking a few people to do everything. Be proactive. Plan way ahead so your volunteers can too. Then, start recruiting more boys and improving the program.

If you're going to ask moms to help lead, include their younger children and daughters. I got tired of my younger daughter being justifiably frustrated by being sidelined. Fact of life. If I'm volunteering in my son's activity, his younger sibling/s are with me. Include them. They have feelings too, and want to be a part of the group. If you treat my daughter like an unwanted tag along, don't be surprised if I quit.

Good luck,

Ga Mom

I have actually helped teach five classes of third graders to make solar ovens out of pizza boxes in science class. Another volunteer helped them make smores in them the next week, and I hear it went well. The kids loved it. I don't remember any having trouble with it.

As a side teaching aid, the teacher used regular weather thermometers on 1 page each of red paper, yellow paper, and black paper to show which color absorbed the most heat from a sunlamp. The kids then chose the most heat absorbent color to line the bottom of the oven. They also used foil to help reflect more heat into the box.

Overall, it was a cheap, fun, and educational project. Took us about 30 minutes of class time.

Good luck,

GA Mom

If the GSUSA accepted boys, then they would stop being a valuable place for girls. There is a lot of research in place to confirm that girls (and women) do their best when the boys (and men) are somewhere else...

I definitely get what you're saying about girls often being crowded out by more aggressive boys in activities. I've seen it in my daughter's co-ed gifted class at school when a very aggressive boy took over a group project from daughter and her female friend. There is plenty of evidence to show that most girls do better in classes and hands-on activities if the boys are elsewhere.

However, I also see this with my high functioning autistic son, who is very gentle and unassertive. He also had a male work partner run roughshod over him in an after school robotics program because the other boy is an undisciplined snot who completely took over the project. I had to tell the teacher that I was not paying for my son to sit and watch the other kid do all the robot building. If they were too cheap to give each child their own materials, and insisted they work in pairs, then I expected them to make sure my son had a 50% opportunity to learn.

All that to say, it's not just girls vs. boys, it's team players vs. non team players. I've seen girls behave in exclusionary ways toward other girls as well.

I get what you're saying, but I question the long term wisdom of addressing this very real problem by splitting up the genders. What happens in high school? What happens in college? What happens in the workplace? How will these girls who have grown accustomed to single gender classes and activities assert themselves when they do arrive in a co-ed environment?

I help with the in school and after school science programs. I'm a big advocate for my daughter's encouragement to participate in any field she chooses. She wanted to help me with a kitchen remodel the other day, and she said "Mommy, I'm good at engineering! I can help!". I was never prouder. Both kids did a great job helping me put the cabinets together.

I do try to teach both of my kids to assert themselves, and also be considerate of others. I try to teach them to work as a team, and I am frustrated with prima donnas of both genders who have to be in charge of everything. It is especially obnoxious when the prima donna's parents encourage the behavior by telling me how special their "snowflake" is.

A friend of mine keeps posting on FB about what a "genius" her son is (same kid in my son's robotics class above). She's so nice that I can't bring myself to tell her that her son is indeed very intelligent, but he is also an insufferable snot that my kids don't want to be around because he is downright nasty. I won't even babysit him anymore.

While I see your point, I think there is more long term benefit to the boys and the girls if we do put them in co-ed programs at an early age, and make it an expectation that they particpate and share appropriately. They're never too young to learn to work as a team.

Ga Mom

GA Mom' date=' you and other parents who don't want the FOS presentation at your B & G should let the pack leadership know. There is no rule that it must occur then. Suggest another time, most are done at award nights because that's when there are the most parents in the room feeling good about all that scouting has done with their kiddos[/quote']

 

Thanks. I may do that. The last Blue & Gold was downright painful, for the kids, the families, the leaders, and especially the speaker. Last year, when I was on the leadership committee, we were told by our Council rep that we must invite the FOS, et al, to the Blue & Gold. I didn't know it was optional.

 

GA Mom

Atheists as well. Science is like that. The FLL Championships are held here in St. Louis in April. You should see the custom uniforms these teams wear. Don't look cheap to me. Know what downtown hotel room costs? More than a Scout uniform and a slew of campouts.

Absolutely true. I'm not trying to keep my kids completely away from people who don't share our values. I'd have to lock them in the basement for that.

I don't want hothouse flowers who are kept in a little bubble with our church friends. We meet people, see movies, etc. with a lot that is good and some that is not right for us, and we talk about how to apply "spit and chew" in life. My kids are taught to never, ever, make a personal comment about anyone else, but to feel free to ask my husband and me absolutely anything in private later. I've seen some sad situations when sheltered little church kids go out in the world with no discernment and no preparation to deal with those not like themselves.

There is a major difference, though, between teaching my child and mentoring my child. Mentoring, which is what the BSA tries to offer, is more intimate and all encompassing. They are presenting the older Scouts and leaders as all around role models. I am very picky about who mentors my child at church and in life. The more influence an adult or older child has on my kids, the closer to our values and lifestyle they should be.

Teaching is different. My kid is there to learn a subject: art, programming, music, sports, whatever. My daughter's favorite art teacher is practically Wiccan in her extreme feminism and goddess worship. She is also an excellent art teacher, a very nice lady, and cares about my daughter. I discuss with my daughter what is and what isn't right for our family in this lady's lifestyle. A one hour art class is fine. I probably would not be comfortable with her as a Scout leader or Sunday School teacher for my child (not that this lady attends church) becasue that relationship is more influential.

The two concerns I have with Scouts are that 1. the leaders and the program present themselves as faith and values teachers, and 2. the encouragement for my young kids to sleep out in the woods alone with leaders and teenagers I may not know well. I have no such concerns when my kids are in drama class, science camp, FLL, Science Olympiad, etc.

I think BSA would be better off to lessen the emphasis on faith and values, and allow for the local option many have suggested. Instead of trying to enforce a uniform system of values and morals on everyone, maybe they should leave that to the chartering school or church. Then, I can choose to involve my kids in a CO where I know most of the leaders and kids well and I'm comfortable with the example they set for my child.

As to away trips for sports, science, Scouts, or whatever, I'm not sending my young teen anywhere alone with leaders and kids I don't know very, very well, whether it's to a hotel or the Scout campground. it's just not wise to place that level of trust in someone who isn't a close and trusted family friend.

Yes, KDD, I know what it costs to travel. I'm an author, and I've done many book tours nationwide. I never stay in the downtown hotel in the first place. Your point is well taken about the future costs we may run into in FLL and other STEM related leagues, and I will keep my eyes open. In my area Science Olympiad and 4-H might be less expensive options, or the robot builder's morning out meeting my husband goes to once a month now that our kids are a little older.

Thanks,

Ga Mom

Thank you all so much for the resources and encouragement. It is very encouraging to hear from parents of older Scouts that this activity was good for their HFA kids.

GA Mom

I'm curious' date=' and I'm not trying to be chippy at all, but for those of you advocating for co-ed because it's easier for your family, do you also advocate for co-ed sports teams? I see plenty of parents running son to baseball three days a week and daughter to softball three other days and/or times but rarely hear them ask for co-ed participation or complain that their daughter can't be on the baseball team. Just curious.[/quote']

 

We take our kids to Upward Sports, a Christian sponsored league for basketball, baseball, and soccer. One of the league rules is that siblings are if at all possible scheduled to practice on the same night. I've never had a problem with my 7 year old daughter and 9 year old son practicing the same night in the same location, although each is one a single gender team.

 

So, while it's not a co-ed team, it is a co-ed program that is very considerate to the families of the kids. As a parent, I very much appreciate their efforts.

 

To be fair, this is a developmental league to teach the kids to have fun and learn to play well. It is not an uber competitive traveling team that practices 3-4 times a week, travels all over, and the rest of the family be damned. We did not choose that type of sports program for either of our children. I feel sorry for any kid, boy or girl, who is relegated to tagging along on their sports star sibling's endless practices and traveling.

 

We try hard to balance our time and money fairly with both of our children, and I don't mind telling them that there are limits on our family's time and money, and they will have to let us know which activities are the most important to them so we can make the best use of the time and money we are able to devote to extracurriculars.

 

You seem to be comparing apples and oranges. There are very good physical reasons why boys and girls can't compete well on the same team in most sports. I don't see the same issue in Cub Scouts. My daughter is just as capable of pitching a tent, cooking outdoors, etc., as my son. I don't see any gender inherent problem with boys and girls participating in the same Scout activities at the Cub level where we are now.

 

Our pack has always allowed sisters to participate. The BSA just won't let them earn the badge for their participation and have a uniform to put it on. I see no reason for the distinction.

 

GA Mom

 

@georgiamom' date=' you have many valid criticisms and need to do hat is best your family. A few points I would like to offer. BSA does not require a new uniform for your Webelos, he may continue to wear his blue one until Boy Scouts. In fact BSA National does not require a uniform period. Any requirement for a uniform or changing uniforms is being imposed by your local Pack, not the BSA. Talk to your unit leadership about the issue don't blame National. Secondly I do not enjoy the yearly FOS campaign and enjoy the the weekly Sunday campaign even less, so I don't show up for them either. Third, In my opinion FLL is an even bigger racket. We have the retail EV3 and I see great value in the program, but the price Lego charges for the Educational set is obscene. The time constraints between releasing the challenge and competition is just to tight in my opinion especially at the beginning of the school year. For those if us in less temperate climates than you that is prime outdoor time.[/quote']

 

Valid point. LEGO is ridiculously overpriced, and after we get our kids involved, I might be making the same complaint.

 

Thanks for the tip on uniforms. I'll check with our Pack. We were told to buy new uniforms for Webelos before August, with no option mentioned.

 

GA Mom

 

Gee, I learn something new everyday. I had to Google that after reading GA Mom's comments. Had a little vomit in my mouth looking at the pictures. Must have missed the forum outrage at the time...

Yep, me too. According to this sculptor's site, a life size bronze statue costs between $35,000 and $75,000.

http://www.alancottrill.com/faqs.html

So, conservatively, the nine bronze larger than life statues of Wayne Perry, Bob Mazzuca, et al, must have cost a minimum of half a million. That really takes away my enthusiasm for selling popcorn door to door with my nine year old.

GA Mom

GAmom - Not sure what kind of "feminism" you WOULD want your daughter "involved" with.

I want my daughter to learn that men and women were designed by God to work as a team. I want her to learn that when parents choose to bring children into the world, both parents will be giving up a lot of their independence and personal goals in favor of family goals, and that's a trade off many find well worth it.

I hope she might enjoy being a wife and mom someday instead of seeing it as a limitation and a burden. Back to work...my husband has been teaching me PHP and MySql so I can take my book publishing business in a new direction that allows me to have a mentally stimulating activity away from the kids, earn some income again, and still plan my schedule around the kids' activities.

GA Mom

 

An that is why (until Trail Life, at least) pro- and anti- heterosexual exclusivity camps have vied for control over BSA's membership policy rather than built/promoted a youth movement with policy compatible with the views of their respective constituencies. If you grab the helm of the big ship, you might steer the entire thing in your direction. Even if some cargo gets tossed aside, it's still the biggest craft on the water. If you commandeer a small vessel, it might get you and yours where you want them to go, but at the end of the day, you might only get there with a dingy!

Honestly, I would rather have my children involved in a smaller group, with involved parents, less bureaucracy, less paperwork, lower costs and more sanity. Whenever we've been involved with large groups and large churches, things get very bureaucratic and complicated, and more out of touch with the participants and their families.

I also find that when any group or church gets above a critical mass, volunteering drops way off because it's easy to drop and run. In smaller groups I find that all the parents know each other, so it's very obvious when a parent isn't taking on their share of the volunteer load.

Bigger isn't always better, especially when the group gets so big that they have salaried staff and executives. Then, they have monetary reasons to keep the group growing, some of which aren't in the best interests of the kids they are supposed to be serving.

GA Mom

As the mother of a boy (9) and a girl (7), this would not be right for our family for several reasons.

We've examined Girl Scouts for our daughter and decided it is not right for us. I don't like the strong national-led push for a form of feminism that I don't want my daughter involved with. I don't like the fact that national GSA pursues an adult led agenda and involves the girls, instead of providing a place where girls can follow their own values and concience in their own lives.

I would not have allowed my son to join the BSA if I had known at the time that they would allow gay Scouts eventually, or possibly gay leaders. In our faith and reading of the Bible, we believe that homosexuality is strictly forbidden. The rest of the world is entitled to their own opinion and to run their own lives just like I am, and I would never take another person to task for their life choices of any kind.

My children are different. I have a duty to them to raise them as I believe God would want me to. Whenever I hear gay advocates talk about their "right" to teach my kids in any venue, I have to say that no one has any entitlement to my children.

The BSA and the GSA both have values and lifestyle as a major part of their programs. I only entrust my kids to faith and values teachers compatible with our own family's faith. I wouldn't entrust my child to a gay scoutmaster any more than I would entrust him to a Muslim Sunday School teacher. Teachers in other subjects (science, music, art, etc) are not as worrisome to me, as long as they keep their personal values and beliefs to themselves and focus on the subjects in which I hired them to teach my children.

The pack in which our son is involved is led by men I know well, and who are also Christians in God honoring marriages. I continue to trust them with son because I trust his den leader and Scoutmaster. If that ever changes, and if a leader is put in place who does not set a God honoring example for my son (gay, angry, living openly unmarried with a girlfriend, drugs, alcohol issues, whatever), I would withdraw my son from Scouting.

And, yes, I do worry about my child off in the woods tenting with older gay boys. I see no difference between a 15 year old openly gay boy sleeping next to my 12 year old son, and a 15 year old heterosexual boy sleeping next to my 12 year old daughter. Teenage boys are not known for self-control or common sense, especially where sex is concerned, and it is just stupid to put them in a tent alone with a younger teen to whom they are sexually attracted. I would not put either of my children in that kind of vulnerable position.

I wish the BSA would back off of faith. I think the new push for more "interfaith" requirements on the kids in 2015 is a mistake. I'd like to see them less involved in my son's faith, since they handle it so badly. Nobody can make a broadbrush faith and lifestyle program that will please everyone, so they should quit trying to cram it down our throats. Focus on camping, and let us all pursue our own faith at our own churches.

I also don't like the fact that both the BSA and the GSA are huge corporations with very highly paid executives whose salaries depend on the work of volunteers and children. Our Council exec here in Atlanta makes $300,000 a year and works in a $40 miliion office building. The "Volunteer Service Center" here at the Atlanta Council is repulsive. Granite on every horizontal and vertical surface. Very plush. Ridiculous. Almost as disgusting as the bronze statue the former BSA president erected to himself at the new national campground.

I paid for a $100 uniform two years ago, and now I have to go buy a new one for Webelos. We pay through the nose to camp at BSA properties, buy BSA insignia, buys BSA uniforms, etc. The uniforms are more expensive than comparable clothing purchased outside the BSA. The camping fees are higher at BSA properties than at comparable state campgrounds near us. So, why do we do this? Our hard earned fees do not come back to the kids, nor do they offset the cost of participation. In my view, I'm paying to support the executives and their grand offices. And the GSA is just the same. So, why do it?

I have grown to hate the Blue & Gold banquet. Every year, we have to endure the pitch from the Council for "Friends of Scouting". A man I have never seen before and will never see until the next banquet shows up wanting money. This year, he wanted us to all donate $1,000 each. He helpfully offered that we could spread it out into four payments. He seemed surprised when he had no takers. Instead of letting our kids and the parents enjoy their one pack dinner of the year together visiting with their friends, I had to tell them to be quiet and listen to the man up front go on eternally. It should be a social event, not a PBS telethon. The only high point is my son getting his award at the end. I'm tempted to show up after the food next year so we can miss the FOS speaker and just see our son get his award for the year.

This man is nuts. $1000 is my entire budget for the year for my own childrens' activities. I'm trying to figure out how to pay for yet another uniform and other activity fees, and he thinks I'm going to whip out my checkbook for a grand, knowing at least half or more is going to support the adult employees and their plush offices instead of directly to kids. No thanks.

We never see the Council in Atlanta unless they want money or want to criticize how we run the pack. They are no help whatsoever, just leeches in overpriced uniforms. Tired of the South American general cruising in occasionally to demand money and tell us what we're doing wrong. We're volunteers, dammit. Help us. Earn your fat salary, or go home.

The only thing that keeps my son in BSA right now is that he has fallen in love with it. He's proud to be a Scout. I won't take that from him.

I will continue to offer better alternatives that are more educational, better value for money, and less invasive to our personal faith: 4-H, First Lego League, Science Olympiad, etc. The day he chooses to quit BSA because he wants to, I will quietly rejoice. I think it's a racket, and I'm sorry I ever got involved in it.

GA Mom

This has all brought to mind a recent essay on Heaven and Hell, prompted by a professor's question: "Is Hell exothermic or endothermic?" It's worth a read. Put your coffee down first.

http://www.jeffkee.com/hell-explained-by-chemistry-student/

GA Mom

I have a different perspective as the mother of a girl (7) and a boy (9). I often volunteer in my son's Cub Scout pack. In our pack, we have as many or more moms volunteering as dads, and many of us have daughters, too.

The exclusion of girls from the pack leads to my daughter feeling frustrated, and rightly so. If I'm there to help with my son's activity, she is there with me. This is a fact of life. She usually participates, but does not earn any badges for the activity and has no uniform to wear.

After two years of this, she was vocally frustrated, and I don't blame her. If she's going to do the "work", she should get the "pay". It was discouraging to her, and that's not something I like to see as a parent.

So, I went to the pack leaders and asked if they would consider allowing me to start an American Heritage Girls troop alongside the pack. I was clear that this would be entirely on my own time, and I had other moms lined up to help. I didn't want to impose on already overburdened pack leaders.

As I told them, I hoped that there might be some economy of roles in a combined pack (treasurer, etc. that might work for both packs). I thought the adult leadership between the two might be more efficient for the parent volunteers. Plus, parents would only be bringing their children to one evening event, vs. Monday night for Cub Scouts and Tuesday night for the Girl Scout troop based at our school. (GS is not right for our family for other reasons).

They said no. They said it would "take away from the boys' experience". So, I dropped the subject.

My daughter kept asking, quite reasonably, when it would be her turn to be a Scout. In fairness, I felt it was her turn. So, I signed her up for an AHG troop at our church. They require all parents to volunteer. So, I started volunteering for them, and dropped out of the leadership in my son's Cub pack.

To the poster who is a "mom of all boys" and asked that no girls be allowed: that's great for you if you have no daughters. For those of us with daughters, there is a big conflict. How would you have felt as a child being constantly dragged to your brother's Scouting activities and told you can't participate because you're a girl? Or you can "participate", but you can't have a badge or uniform like your brother? My daughter was upset by this, and I don't blame her. If you put volunteer moms in this quandary, some of them will quit, or seek other groups, like 4-H, where they can volunteer with all their kids.

It is possible that more openness to girls, and better use of parents/volunteers' time by allowing them to work with all their kids at once might actually lead to more parent volunteers in the BSA. I don't think the current system of shutting out girls works very well.

GA Mom

Our son will be a Webelo this fall. He was diagnosed with high functioning autism by the school last fall. He's been in Scouts since he was a Tiger.

I am wondering how Scouts has been for other children with autism as we transition into the phase where parents are not as involved. Until now, my husband and/or I have been with him at all events. We are concerned how he will do as the pack becomes more boy-led.

Our son's main struggle is with "zoning out". He becomes overwhelmed in loud, noisy crowds, and will retreat into his imagination or into a good book if available. He is fairly social with one or two close friends, but in larger and louder groups, he just gets overwhelmed. He doesn't yell or stim or act out in a way that is more visible, but he will often not hear instructions to a group if he is off in his imagination or reading.

He is a very good non verbal learner. He's good at building things, science, chess, and STEM projects.

My concern is that sometimes the other boys his age in the pack don't treat him well. He is a very kind boy, as we have raised him to be. A few of the other boys will play silly tricks on him, and he really doesn't like or understand that kind of playing. He takes it to heart and thinks they don't like him. He is very literal and a rule follower. He has a hard time with people who behave in an illogical manner. He'd make a great Vulcan.

I'm honestly not sure if I should even be encouraging him in this activity. If any parents of kids with similar issues are able to offer advice or encouragement, I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks,

GA Mom

 

A great question, but one that isn’t easy to answer. Here are some issues to consider.

 

- What is the scout actually doing when he leads an invocation (which by definition is a prayer)? Is he speaking for the group? Is he giving a demonstration of how his faith tradition does it? What are the expectations that are being set? Is “joining him in prayer†presented as optional or expected?

...

 

- In some faiths, participating in an act of worship from another faith is a form of blasphemy (deep water alert), or is otherwise forbidden or discouraged. I believe there are Christian denominations that forbid their members from participating in interfaith activities (am I correct)?

 

...

 

- Most people assume that prayer in other faiths is a lot like prayer in their own faith, just with a different “addresseeâ€Â. “If I lead a prayer, all I have to do is leave off any mention of Jesus, then it’s completely generic right?â€Â

 

- Is it possible to do a truly non-sectarian (not simply non-denominational Christian) prayer? I think the answer is no. So what is the alternative? Replace the invocation with a moment of silent contemplation? Perhaps a short poem?

 

I like Dcsimmons idea of taking turns with different faiths and doing them right. It could be a great way to teach the scouts about how prayer fits into other faith traditions. Include a short discussion in addition to offering the prayer. Like anything, there are good and bad ways to do it. I haven’t seen it done in a scouting context, but I think it could be done well.

This sounds like a very generous idea, but my own faith would not allow me to participate in the kind of worship service you are suggesting.

I'm actually a little concerned about the new "interfaith service" requirement coming up for my Webelos under the new guidelines in 2015. Some of the templates I've seen are fine, but others would not be right for our family.

In my opinion and according to my personal understanding of my faith, there is a world of difference between being respectful of other faiths and participating in them.

I am a Protestant Christian. I can participate in prayers of any Christian denomination because we are all praying to the same God. We just have some different interpretations of other parts of the Bible. I can even participate if invited in a Jewish worship ceremony because, again we are praying to the same God.

I cannot pray to Allah. I cannot participate in worship ceremonies of other faiths (Hindu, Buddist, etc) because in my faith, they are praying to false gods, and that is against the Commandments of my God. Yes, Rick, in my church participating in interfaith services would be blasphemy.

Taking Islam as an example, I have Muslim friends. I respect them. I do my best to avoid offending their faith. I don't offer them alcohol or pork. I dress conservatively, as I would anyway. I don't try to shake a Muslim man's hand because I believe they are not allowed to touch women outside their families. I do my best to respect their faith and traditions.

But I can't pray to Allah. That's crossing a very big bright red line in my faith. Please don't ask me to.

There's a huge difference between tolerance and respect and active participation. I agree with another poster that the best way to respect all religions in a Pack or Troop is to make space for all members to pursue their own faith and prayers among themselves. I am not happy with the apparent move in the new handbooks to have kids participate in a one size fits all/all roads lead to God interfaith service. Not a good idea.

Learning about other faiths is a great idea. I've done studies of comparative religions in my own church. I think it's great to understand Islam, Hinduism, etc., so I can avoid unnecessarily offending someone else. Their faith deserves as much respect from me as I hope mine would receive.

For our family though, "taking turns with different faiths" is taking it one step too far. We can't do that. Honestly, I think faith is so personal that BSA should not go down this road at all. I think they should stick to camping, etc., and leave faith and worship to each child's own family to participate (or not) according to their own conscience.

Ga Mom