GeorgiaMom

I have observed a similar situation in my extended family for many years. A 19 year old "man", molested his little six year old cousin.

This occurred at a family reunion, the kind of situation with many people around which many reasonable people would consider public and safe. He still found a way to trick this little girl into going into a bathroom with him alone. The actual molestation was very brief, but it follows her today.

Now, 13 years later, this has caused a huge rift in the family between those who insist forgiveness = trust and those who are more realistically cautious of him. I have been berated myself for not trusting this person around my own little daughter.

I have seen this precious girl, who did nothing wrong, unable to attend most family Christmases and events because she is quite reasonably unable to be in the room with him. Please put yourself in the shoes of a molestation victim. How would you feel in a room full of people laughing and treating this person like he did nothing wrong. I was treated this way myself in high school after an attempted rape that landed me in the hospital, so I can identify with the heart pounding panic that goes with being around someone who hurt you this way.

There is a very good reason why so many people regard child abusers and rapists as irretrievable: they are. Sexual abuse, especially of children, has a very high rate of recidivism. The facts support the feeling that these people can never be trusted around children again.

I have a raw nerve about people who demand trust of abusers. In almost every case, they are not putting themselves in harm's way. I'm tired of listening to the overbearing old lady in my own family demanding that I trust a known molester with my daughter just because he's a relative, and that by refusing to take my eyes off my child at family events that I'm not really a Christian. That's spiritual abuse. Holier than thou old lady isn't risking her own safety to prove what a great testament to Christian forgiveness she is, she's putting my 1st grader in harm's way. I have very little patience for people who use kids and risk their safety to show off their holiness.

As a mom, I owe my child protection. I can't defend her against the many dangers I don't know about, but I sure as hell can defend her against those I do know about, and there's not excuse for me not to. I give my little child the benefit of the doubt that she needs protection, not the "man" who shows no evidence of rehabilitation.

If the molester doesn't like being under suspicion for the rest of his miserable life, he can pound sand. No one held a gun to his head to make him assault a little girl. He didn't steal medicine or food out of necessity. There is no reason to feel any sympathy for a molester. There are no extenuating circumstances for this kind of crime.

I can't rely on the wife of an abuser for accurate feedback on his rehabilitation. Spouses of abusers are frequently abused themselves, and will often lie, deny, and justify just about any behavior from their abusive spouse.

My sympathy is with the child who was raped, who deserves to be in society without fear or contact with this person. My sympathy is also with those children who might be assaulted in the future. A child abuser cannot be trusted around kids. It shows incredibly poor judgment for this person to attend a Scouting event.

Legally, I think the venue would have every right to ask him to leave. As a parent, I hope they would do so.

GA Cub Mom

Thank you very much. It is so helpful to hear from parents who have dealt with this issue further down the road than we have been at this point.

I have not addressed the mild bullying with the SM or the CC. We are at this point encouraging our son to speak up and self-advocate.

I have also witnessed one of his good friends in his den stand up for my son when the DL/CC's kid (the yeller) said my son couldn't be a part of the group game they were playing at the last den meeting. I made a point of praising the child who spoke up for my son to be included to his parents in his presence. His family are good friends and they have four great kids.

There isn't much point in talking to Twit #1's parents, as his dad is the DL/CC and the son is a lot like his dad (Father Twit is the reason I quit pack leadership). Twit #1 will likely be my son's future patrol leader, as he is his father's Golden Boy, which is not a good prospect to think about.

Twit #2 is a former friend of my son's who is lashing out at everyone fairly recently, in class and in Scouts. This is a school based pack, and I volunteer at the school often enough to be very familiar with all the kids. I have reason to believe that Twit #2's parents may split soon. With bizarre behavior from the kid's mother, and a father who is just trying to keep it all together for his sons, I don't think I want to approach either of them right now unless the behavior gets significantly worse. I'm actually very worried about the kid, but regardless of what he is going through, I don't want him mistreating my son (or anyone else).

My concern was that "boy-led" might not provide the best structure and supervision for my son, but hearing that Scouting has been so good for kids with similar disabilities is encouraging me to stick with it.

Thank you all very much for your encouragement,

GeorgiaMom

Hi,

My son loves being a Scout. He loves building things and going camping with his daddy.

I have some concerns about his future in Scouts. I am unsure how he is going to get along in an increasingly boy led Webelos den and then a Boy Scout troop.

Our son was diagnosed this fall with Auditory Processing Disorder. It is a neurological problem, and cannot be fixed with hearing aids. This is a total shift for us as parents.

Until just a few months ago, we thought he was shy and uncomfortable in groups and needed to be encouraged and required to stay in group situations and learn to handle them. Now, we have found out from the audiologist and the doctor that he has a sincere hearing problem and these loud environments are a lot like having a bad hearing aid cranked up to top volume. It's not a behavioral issue. It's medical. He is in therapy with a language pathologist, but it is uncertain how much we can help him overcome this, if he can at all.

He cannot understand speech well in loud rooms. He does well in one on one conversations, mostly because he lip reads (which came as a surprise to us when the audiologist demonstrated just how much he is lip reading). When people talk to him from behind, to the side, or across the room, he frequently cannot hear or understand what they are saying. Loud environments are very uncomfortable for him, as the garbled sound is overwhelming. When the other kids get too loud and rambunctious, he will leave or "hide" in a book. Reading seems to help him block out the overwhelming sounds.

The Scout leaders have been understanding. They know to gently touch him on the shoulder to get his attention if he appears not to hear something they've said. He's been ok in Cub Scouts so far.

My concern is what is going to happen as he moves into the more boy-led Webelos and Boy Scouts. One boy in his pack just keeps yelling louder if he's trying to talk to my son from behind him or to the side. He can't get that my son is unable to understand what he is saying or even that the other boy is trying to talk to him. The other kid is only 9, like my son.

A couple of boys in the pack have been bullying my son more and more in class and at pack events. Fortunately, he also has two good friends in the pack who have been raised well and understand my son has a hearing problem. My son uses an FM receiver in class to hear his teacher's microphone, so some of the kids understand there is a medical issue.

Does anyone else have experience with their hearing impaired Cub Scout transitioning to Webelos and Boy Scouts? How did it go?

I want my son in an environment where is learning and having fun. I am unsure if Webelos and Boy Scouts are right for him.

Thanks,

Georgia Mom

You don't like the BSA. We know. Put your son in TrailLife, get over it and let it go.

Bloomberg's list of the highest paid female executives include companies like Hewlett-Packar, Yahoo, Intel, PepsiCo, etc. I think the glass ceiling is on its way out.

http://www.bloomberg.com/slideshow/2013-08-19/the-15-highest-paid-female-top-executives-.html#slide7

Maybe Patti Garibay chooses to take a reasonable salary and make AHG all about helping girls be the best women they can be.

I find the bureaucracy at GSUSA and BSA bloated, way overpaid, and doing a terrible job of serving the children and parent volunteers. They serve themselves first, often at the expense of the families in the program. I don't see any gender bias here. Both execs are greedy.

Anna Maria Chavez even came out supporting the little Girl Scout selling cookies in front of a marijuana dispensary. The official GSUSA position on this is that as long as it's a "legitimate business" they "won't tell Girl Scouts where to sell their cookies".

Who in their right mind thinks that's an appropriate place to put a kid? Alcohol is legal too, and I have no problem with responsible drinking, but I sure wouldn't put my little daughter out in front of the local liquor store fundraising for AHG.

http://mashable.com/2014/02/20/girl-scout-cookies-marijuana/

Nor would AHG approve if I did, I believe. We church ladies are just not "cool", I guess.

GA Mom

Mazzuca is retired.

 

Second, without a link, I really don't buy the salaries for the Atlanta area scout exec. This link shows the typical salary of a scout exec in the $40k range.

 

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Boy-Scouts-of-America-Salaries-E7807.htm

With a free account, you can see the IRS filings and other info on any registered nonprofit. I check here when I want to make sure my donation dollars are being well spent.

I get that Mazzuca is retired. He was the exec when the most recent info available was posted. I doubt the new exec is paid any less handsomely.

Whether or not you find the numbers reasonable, they are the actual salaries taken from each groups' 990 filings with the IRS. Look under "Compensation of Officers".

Ga Mom

After reading a few snarky comments about American Heritage Girls, where I am a local volunteer leader, I took a look at the salaries reported on Guidestar.org. With a free account, you can see the IRS 990 forms of any nonprofit organization for the last three years. I like knowing where my money is going.

Anyway, here are the numbers for 2011 except where noted, the most recent year available online for most of these groups:

American Heritage Girls, national office:

Top Executive salary (Patti Garibay): $70,651.00

Boy Scouts of America, national office:

Top Executive salary (Robert Mazzuca): $987,412.00

Atlanta Area Council of the BSA:

Top Executive salary (Tracy Techau): $364,000 (2012)

Girl Scouts of America, national office:

Top Executive salary (Anna Maria Chavez, took office in November): $177,652

Top Executive salary (Kathy Cloninger, left in November) $887,209

As a former leader and current parent in the Cub Scouts, I find the 360 paid employees at the Atlanta Area Council totally useless. Dead-wood.

I call to ask questions, and get no response and no help. Zero. Even last year when I was pack treasurer and found I'd been stuck holding the bag for seven years of unfiled and unpaid taxes by the pack AND the CO. Begged for help for months. Zip. Crickets. Oh wait, they told me a couple of times to shut up and go away, I guess that counts as communication.

After I went out and got advice from a CPA on my own time and did what my properly educated and licensed tax advisor told me to do, THEN the Council calls my house to yell at me because they wanted me to just sweep it under the rug. So much for "a Scout is honest".

Our Pinewood Derby was the weekend. We had technical difficulties with the track and computer that left the leadership scrambling for over 90 minutes with a roomful of agitated kids and younger siblings. Not fun for anyone. Parents are pitching in everywhere to fix the track, get the computer working, entertain the kids.

And the paid Scout Executive from the Council sent to observe did....squat. He just stood there and smirked. The only paid guy in the room did absolutely nothing. Because it's "all about the kids", right? I guarantee we will see much more energy from him at the Blue & Gold next month when he comes back to solicit for the Friends of Scouting drive. I will not be giving him a dime.

Oh, and it's always fun to visit the ironically named "Volunteer Support Center". Tax records show it cost over $40 million. It's huge. Here's a pic of our BSA Taj Mahal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Atlanta_Area_Council_office.jpg Do we really need a 4 story foyer and granite on every horizontal and vertical surface, inside and out, in order to lead a program "for the boys"?

American Heritage Girls, on the other hand, makes do with only 36 paid employees in their (only) national office. When I call with a question, I actually get an answer! One tenth of the employees of our Atlanta BSA in the NATIONAL AHG office, and they do a better job. On much lower pay.

My son's Scout uniform cost over $100, plus a new book every year. My daughter's AHG uniform and book? $42. I love AHG. A girl gets one book when she starts, and uses it the entire time until she's in high school. Brilliant!

So, when we start throwing around words like "hypocrites" at AHG and Trail Life (which is too new to have filed a 990 yet), let's look at the folks who are getting the most done for the least compensation.

GA Mom

I agree with those here who have said that this spin off would probably have eventually happened even if the vote on the gay issue had not come up. There were (and still are) a group of people in the BSA that are not interested in, and have no intention of embracing the BSA values of pluralism (the BSA is “completely nonsectarian†and A Scout is Reverent - “... He respects the beliefs of others.â€Â). They want the BSA to be an explicitly conservative Christian organization that allowed others to join, as long as they agreed to follow conservative Christian values (after all, these are the only valid “valuesâ€Â). The vote was a signal that the BSA was no-longer moving in the direction they wished.

 

So it’s no surprise that Trail Life is an explicitly Christian organization (and only a certain kind of Christian at that), that has a policy on gays that is almost identical to the new BSA one (because it was really a religious issue, not one about gays). I have no problem with them and I wish them well. Trail Life (like the American Heritage Girls) is very up-front and honest about what they are, and provides an alternative to those scouters that don’t want to rub elbows with people of different faiths.

We have no problem "rubbing elbows" with people outside the Christian faith. *All* girls are welcome in AHG, and in our church, as you will find in the mission statement at http://www.ahgonline.org. We have a wide variety of girls in our troop and our church.

AHG, and our church which sponsors our troop, *does* require that *leaders* teaching children agree to uphold the church's statement of faith and the AHG mission statement.

We are protestant Christians. When I take my child to a protestant Christian church or group (like AHG), I expect her to be taught and mentored by protestant Christian leaders. Not Muslims. Not Hindus. Etc. There is an enormous gulf between respecting other people's choices in their own lives and allowing them to mentor my own children.

I have many friends of many faiths. I have no problem "rubbing elbows", being neighbors, doing business, etc. Everyone deserves my respect. *No one* has a "right" to mentor my children. That is a privilege I entrust to people who share my own personal religious beliefs and values.

Trail Life is to BSA what AHG is to Girl Scouts: a faith based alternative for those parents who are uncomfortable with the moral direction the earlier group was taking. It's called religous freedom and freedom of assembly.

I second the idea of putting the planning and the financing squarely in the court of the Scouters and their parents. I doubt most parents will be motivated to pay, volunteer, and/or fund raise to be considerate of you (unfortunately), but they might be motivated in order to avoid disappointing their own child.

Ga Mom

First, thank you for all your hard work for the boys. I completely sympathize with you, as I wore six hats myself last year and totally burned out.

Our district summer camp had a great idea for their camp week signup sheet that I wish our pack would use (but won't). Maybe you will find it useful.

The summer camp organizers have decided that they must have one committed parent helper for each four Scouts attending from a pack. Their signup form has staggered lines that make it very clear that you can't sign up campers 5-8 until you signup adult helper #2. It also states that Scouts of no-show adults will be banned from future camps.

You are being mistreated by the other adults (again, I've been there). It is terrible when you feel on the hook to pick up the slack for the parents of dozens of other campers to avoid disappointing your own child. This might be a way around the problem.

Sign yourself up as the first helper, sign your kid up as the first camper, and after the first three other campers, just shrug your shoulders at the parent of camper #5 and tell them that "troop policy" requires a 1:4 adult/Scout ratio for the event. And stick to it.

Good luck, sorry this is happening to you,

GA Mom

Harassment of any kind is ugly, but sexual harassment is soul crushing. This scout is violating your child's private sexuality in a very ugly way. No wonder he was so upset.

 

I have to ask the OP, if your daughter was being harassed in this manner, would you tolerate it? I think our sons deserve the same dignity and respect as our daughters. Nothing personal. I just find as the mom of a son and a daughter that in our culture generally too often sons are expected to tolerate abuse above and beyond what is expected of our girls, and I don't think that's right.

 

In your conversation with the other mom, did you stand up for your son when she accused him of lying? You mentioned that the other mom is "not one to be tangled with". Why? What do you have to lose? Are you physically afraid of her? I say this as a person who was intimidated by abusive people for far too much of my life. I have been in your son's position and worse, and was not defended by my own mother. I have lost a lot of respect for her due to this and other reasons.

 

If you are right about your SM, and he is tolerating abuse of your son in order to protect his own position as leader, then I have a low opinion of him. I wouldn't want my son being mentored by such a person. And don't even get me started on the CC enabling her own son to abuse other scouts. Makes you wonder what he sees at home. I doubt that apple fell far from the tree.

 

The actions you take now will help form your son's future willingness or unwillingness to tolerate abuse. I say this from personal experience.

 

With years of experience, similar harassment in my own past, and 20/20 hindsight, this is what I would do, since you asked:

 

1. Find out if your state is a "one party" state as far as audio recording or a "two party" state. "One party" means that one party participating in the conversation (like your son) can legally record the other party or parties to the conversation without their knowledge. If it is legal in your state, I would recommend giving your son a recording device to record his next interaction with this scout.

 

2. I would ask your son if he wants to pursue this scout or quietly leave. It should be his choice. It's hard to stand up to someone like this. Having been in situations where I did stand up to an abuser, and others in which I did not, I would say if it's physically safe to confront this abuser then it can be very healing to do so. If your son wants to, and it's legal, have him keep a recording device on him, and confront the other scout about what he said. Have your son tell him to stop the abuse and stay away from him. Then, let the other Scout run his mouth, on the record.

 

3. Make a copy of the recording, and bring it to the CC and SM. Also send a copy to the district and council with a written complaint. The bully scout should be run out of the troop on a rail, not your son who has done nothing wrong.

 

4. If you get nowhere with the Scouts after giving incontrovertible proof, then give the tape to the police. Sexual harassment of children is against the law, even when done by a minor. The other scout needs a serious wake up call.

 

This is not "boys will be boys". It is a big deal. It should be treated as one. I absolutely would not expect or allow my son to remain around this person or the adults who are enabling him. Eagle be damned. Have the BOR moved to another troop.

 

Good luck,

 

​Ga Mom

What did feel good was standing up to a different abuser when I was older. I totally agree that the OP needs to get her son out of this situation, but it may be healing and encouraging for the son to confront the abuse and leave of his own choice than to feel that he has been bullied out of the troop.

How he handles this will have some effect on how he handles bullies in the future. It might be a good learning experience for him to stand up to the bully's behavior -- and then leave and get on with a happy life in a new troop. I wish the OP and her son the best regardless.

Getting high on weed while camping is the same as getting drunk while camping.

 

Don't want you near the fire, stove or lantern.

Don't want to see an axe or a knife in your hand.

Can't trust you to wander off in the woods to take a nature call; you might forget your way back.

 

Certainly don't want you climbing, rappelling, canoeing, shooting or any other high adventure activity.

 

Our troop will not be responsible for you if you're high or drunk.

Do that stuff in the safety of your home.

"stay away from my son!"

Georgia Mom

Harassment of any kind is ugly, but sexual harassment is soul crushing. This scout is violating your child's private sexuality in a very ugly way. No wonder he was so upset.

I have to ask the OP, if your daughter was being harassed in this manner, would you tolerate it? I think our sons deserve the same dignity and respect as our daughters. Nothing personal. I just find as the mom of a son and a daughter that in our culture generally too often sons are expected to tolerate abuse above and beyond what is expected of our girls, and I don't think that's right.

In your conversation with the other mom, did you stand up for your son when she accused him of lying? You mentioned that the other mom is "not one to be tangled with". Why? What do you have to lose? Are you physically afraid of her? I say this as a person who was intimidated by abusive people for far too much of my life. I have been in your son's position and worse, and was not defended by my own mother. I have lost a lot of respect for her due to this and other reasons.

If you are right about your SM, and he is tolerating abuse of your son in order to protect his own position as leader, then I have a low opinion of him. I wouldn't want my son being mentored by such a person. And don't even get me started on the CC enabling her own son to abuse other scouts. Makes you wonder what he sees at home. I doubt that apple fell far from the tree.

The actions you take now will help form your son's future willingness or unwillingness to tolerate abuse. I say this from personal experience.

With years of experience, similar harassment in my own past, and 20/20 hindsight, this is what I would do, since you asked:

1. Find out if your state is a "one party" state as far as audio recording or a "two party" state. "One party" means that one party participating in the conversation (like your son) can legally record the other party or parties to the conversation without their knowledge. If it is legal in your state, I would recommend giving your son a recording device to record his next interaction with this scout.

2. I would ask your son if he wants to pursue this scout or quietly leave. It should be his choice. It's hard to stand up to someone like this. Having been in situations where I did stand up to an abuser, and others in which I did not, I would say if it's physically safe to confront this abuser then it can be very healing to do so. If your son wants to, and it's legal, have him keep a recording device on him, and confront the other scout about what he said. Have your son tell him to stop the abuse and stay away from him. Then, let the other Scout run his mouth, on the record.

3. Make a copy of the recording, and bring it to the CC and SM. Also send a copy to the district and council with a written complaint. The bully scout should be run out of the troop on a rail, not your son who has done nothing wrong.

4. If you get nowhere with the Scouts after giving incontrovertible proof, then give the tape to the police. Sexual harassment of children is against the law, even when done by a minor. The other scout needs a serious wake up call.

This is not "boys will be boys". It is a big deal. It should be treated as one. I absolutely would not expect or allow my son to remain around this person or the adults who are enabling him. Eagle be damned. Have the BOR moved to another troop.

Good luck,

​Ga Mom

Yes, I have. The resolution was for me to reluctantly leave the leadership. My son remains as a Bear Cub. He absolutely loves Scouts, and I will not remove him as long as the leaders continue to treat him well.

 

It's very awkward as his den leader is the CC who treated me so poorly. I continue to offer help with den activities (like arranging a visit from my deputy sheriff friend to the den), and I continue to be ignored as though I don't exist. It's sad.

 

I was asked to be the treasurer for my son's Cub Scout pack for the 2012-2013 school year. As a part of my job, I tried to give our financial figures to the PTA (our CO) for inclusion in the PTA's 990 tax filings.

 

I was particularly concerned as I knew the PTA had no treasurer at all at the time, and I was concerned about making sure the PTA was filing its taxes on time. The PTA treasurer had suddenly moved out of state, and several months went by before a replacement was found. There was no one in the chair to file the taxes, so naturally I wondered if it was being done.

 

I was voluntold to be the PTA treasurer, without being asked first, and refused. It was particularly unsettling that the principal was told I had accepted the job before *I* was told I had "accepted" the job.

 

Anyway, as a lifelong small businessperson, I take taxes very seriously. In doing my due diligence to make sure our Cub Scout income and expenses were included in the filing of the CO's 990, I found out that the CO had not included the pack's income or expenses in the 990 filings for the entire seven years the pack had been in existence.

 

No taxes filed or paid on over $100,000 in income to the pack over a seven year period. Also, the bank account did not have an EIN or an SSN, just some weird made up number.

 

I notified the pack leadership, and tried to get the taxes filed. I told them I was very concerned as I was a signer on the bank account and therefore personally liable for the unpaid taxes and fines. I was asked to shut up.

 

I talked to the PTA about it, and then got a call from the pack leaders who told me to shut up on orders from the Council.

 

The pack leaders insisted that the IRS didn't want to prosecute nice people helping kids, and I had no reason to be concerned. I knew from personal experience that this was self-serving bullshit.

 

I tried to explain to the pack leaders that I had been to this rodeo before. As a teenager, my parents got in trouble for tax evasion. I was grilled at age 19 by IRS enforcement who were looking for ways to hold me responsible for my parents' tax debt. I was told, in person, to my face, by the IRS enforcement agent that if I had ever at any point been a signer on my parents' business bank accounts, the IRS could hold me liable for the entire tax debt.

 

The pack leaders thought I should take the word of the BSA over the IRS. Sorry, but no. I showed the pack leaders the documentation from the IRS supporting my concerns. I was told that I was personally offending the pack leaders by even suggesting the BSA would ever do anything improper and that I was hurting the kids and the program by not being supportive of the BSA.

 

So, I went to my CPA on my own time and my own dime to again check my concerns. My CPA told me I was right and I needed to "get out of Dodge". He told me the PTA and the pack could be fined as much as $5,000 to $7,000 in failure to file penalties, for which I would be liable as well. His recommendation was that I send a certified letter to the PTA with all of our pack figures and ask them to file them along with the 990. He said at least it would show I had done my best. He also recommended I have my name removed as a signer from the pack bank account.

 

When I told the pack, they told me they had no one to replace me so I would have to wait to have my name taken off the account. I told them I was not willing to wait. The CC replaced me as a signer.

 

The same day the PTA received my letter with the income and expenses, the BSA Council for my area called me at home to chew me out. "What are you doing!" "You have to be more political!" "The PTA hates the BSA and you're giving them an excuse to shut down all the packs and troops!" Etc.

 

This is ridiculous. Like it or not, it is a fact that our pack did not file or pay taxes for seven years, nor did the CO on the pack's behalf. Like it or not, that's illegal. Like it or not, I was personally on the hook for the mess I didn't make.

 

I should never have been in this position in the first place. I had nothing to do with the seven years of unfiled taxes. I just found the mess, and refused to sweep it under the rug. I have never, ever, cheated on my own taxes, and I'm not going to cheat on the pack taxes it was my responsibility to file.

 

I have lost *so* much respect for the BSA and the men in charge of my pack. It really is BullShitters Anonymous to me now. My son loves it so much that I'm not sure what to do but let him stay as long as it's a good experience for him. I'm hoping he'll outgrow it soon and move on willingly without being aware of this mess. He loves camping out with his dad, and I don't want to spoil that for him. Our son has no idea about the drama.

 

It is just lowlife for a grown man to call a volunteer mom at home and yell at her for trying to do the job she was asked to do in a legal and responsible manner. It is not my responsibility to deal with the "politics" between the PTA and the BSA. It is their responsibility to get their own contract straight so that each party understands who is responsible for legal requirements like filing and paying taxes. A volunteer mom should never have to stand between the BSA and the PTA hearing each party say "no, they're supposed to do it!". I'm too busy for this!

 

I quit the BSA and will never volunteer for them again. I'm at AHG now with my daughter, and it's great. I actually feel appreciated there.

 

My take on the BSA as a sadder but wiser volunteer for them is that they have incredible hubris at the District level and up. Most of the rank and file volunteers are great, but the people at the District and up who do this as a job are highly unethical and abusive to the volunteers who actually do all the work. It's sad. The bronze statue to the former BSA president just floored me, but I wasn't surprised.

 

GA Mom

BTW, I also bring my little girl's best friend to AHG every week. She's black. Our pastor is black and our church is highly racially integrated, as is our AHG troop at the church. I happen to be white, but I expect to be judged not by the color of my skin but by the content of my character.

You can laugh at me all you like, but don't ever call me racist.

Yes, I have. The resolution was for me to reluctantly leave the leadership. My son remains as a Bear Cub. He absolutely loves Scouts, and I will not remove him as long as the leaders continue to treat him well.

It's very awkward as his den leader is the CC who treated me so poorly. I continue to offer help with den activities (like arranging a visit from my deputy sheriff friend to the den), and I continue to be ignored as though I don't exist. It's sad.

I was asked to be the treasurer for my son's Cub Scout pack for the 2012-2013 school year. As a part of my job, I tried to give our financial figures to the PTA (our CO) for inclusion in the PTA's 990 tax filings.

I was particularly concerned as I knew the PTA had no treasurer at all at the time, and I was concerned about making sure the PTA was filing its taxes on time. The PTA treasurer had suddenly moved out of state, and several months went by before a replacement was found. There was no one in the chair to file the taxes, so naturally I wondered if it was being done.

I was voluntold to be the PTA treasurer, without being asked first, and refused. It was particularly unsettling that the principal was told I had accepted the job before *I* was told I had "accepted" the job.

Anyway, as a lifelong small businessperson, I take taxes very seriously. In doing my due diligence to make sure our Cub Scout income and expenses were included in the filing of the CO's 990, I found out that the CO had not included the pack's income or expenses in the 990 filings for the entire seven years the pack had been in existence.

No taxes filed or paid on over $100,000 in income to the pack over a seven year period. Also, the bank account did not have an EIN or an SSN, just some weird made up number.

I notified the pack leadership, and tried to get the taxes filed. I told them I was very concerned as I was a signer on the bank account and therefore personally liable for the unpaid taxes and fines. I was asked to shut up.

I talked to the PTA about it, and then got a call from the pack leaders who told me to shut up on orders from the Council.

The pack leaders insisted that the IRS didn't want to prosecute nice people helping kids, and I had no reason to be concerned. I knew from personal experience that this was self-serving bullshit.

I tried to explain to the pack leaders that I had been to this rodeo before. As a teenager, my parents got in trouble for tax evasion. I was grilled at age 19 by IRS enforcement who were looking for ways to hold me responsible for my parents' tax debt. I was told, in person, to my face, by the IRS enforcement agent that if I had ever at any point been a signer on my parents' business bank accounts, the IRS could hold me liable for the entire tax debt.

The pack leaders thought I should take the word of the BSA over the IRS. Sorry, but no. I showed the pack leaders the documentation from the IRS supporting my concerns. I was told that I was personally offending the pack leaders by even suggesting the BSA would ever do anything improper and that I was hurting the kids and the program by not being supportive of the BSA.

So, I went to my CPA on my own time and my own dime to again check my concerns. My CPA told me I was right and I needed to "get out of Dodge". He told me the PTA and the pack could be fined as much as $5,000 to $7,000 in failure to file penalties, for which I would be liable as well. His recommendation was that I send a certified letter to the PTA with all of our pack figures and ask them to file them along with the 990. He said at least it would show I had done my best. He also recommended I have my name removed as a signer from the pack bank account.

When I told the pack, they told me they had no one to replace me so I would have to wait to have my name taken off the account. I told them I was not willing to wait. The CC replaced me as a signer.

The same day the PTA received my letter with the income and expenses, the BSA Council for my area called me at home to chew me out. "What are you doing!" "You have to be more political!" "The PTA hates the BSA and you're giving them an excuse to shut down all the packs and troops!" Etc.

This is ridiculous. Like it or not, it is a fact that our pack did not file or pay taxes for seven years, nor did the CO on the pack's behalf. Like it or not, that's illegal. Like it or not, I was personally on the hook for the mess I didn't make.

I should never have been in this position in the first place. I had nothing to do with the seven years of unfiled taxes. I just found the mess, and refused to sweep it under the rug. I have never, ever, cheated on my own taxes, and I'm not going to cheat on the pack taxes it was my responsibility to file.

I have lost *so* much respect for the BSA and the men in charge of my pack. It really is BullShitters Anonymous to me now. My son loves it so much that I'm not sure what to do but let him stay as long as it's a good experience for him. I'm hoping he'll outgrow it soon and move on willingly without being aware of this mess. He loves camping out with his dad, and I don't want to spoil that for him. Our son has no idea about the drama.

It is just lowlife for a grown man to call a volunteer mom at home and yell at her for trying to do the job she was asked to do in a legal and responsible manner. It is not my responsibility to deal with the "politics" between the PTA and the BSA. It is their responsibility to get their own contract straight so that each party understands who is responsible for legal requirements like filing and paying taxes. A volunteer mom should never have to stand between the BSA and the PTA hearing each party say "no, they're supposed to do it!". I'm too busy for this!

I quit the BSA and will never volunteer for them again. I'm at AHG now with my daughter, and it's great. I actually feel appreciated there.

My take on the BSA as a sadder but wiser volunteer for them is that they have incredible hubris at the District level and up. Most of the rank and file volunteers are great, but the people at the District and up who do this as a job are highly unethical and abusive to the volunteers who actually do all the work. It's sad. The bronze statue to the former BSA president just floored me, but I wasn't surprised.

GA Mom

I guess I am seeing the comments here that seem to indicate that Lockheed has the nerve to do this, and how insensitive it is.. I see people who did not appreciate the support but have changed to expecting the support..

 

Fact is it is Lockheed's time and money, and Lockheed "owes" BSA nothing.. They did it out of generosity, for public relations, and most probably for a tax break.. They will most likely find a new project to contribute to.. It may benefit children it may not.

 

It is sad if they did a great program.. But, if you had an outstanding Scoutmaster or Cubmaster that put on a terrific program and he suddenly they decided they could no longer volunteer their time to the program, would you react the same way.. "The nerve. We depend on them. He is ruining the program the kids depend on.."

 

I don't know what type of program the provided, but perhaps some of the best of the program could be run by some of the adult volunteers who have gone to it and know the basics. Same as if a volunteer from the unit steps down, you figure out who in the unit can step up to fill the hole.

 

This year it may be a statement, next year it will be a memory.. Life will go on.. Eventually BSA will change. When it happens Lockheed may return, or they may never return. The may think twice about returning to a program who stopped appreciating what they offered and started expecting it to the point that when they moved on, it was demanded they return..

No one is saying that Lockheed owes the kids a merit badge program. If they elect to discontinue it completely, that is their right.

By your argument, if a great Cubmaster had to step down, we'd give him a plaque and thank him, as we did last year. If the Cubmaster said that some kids could come to Scouts if he approved of their religion, and others couldn't, I would object. Your argument has nothing to do with the original post. No one owes kids their time. We all owe kids fair treatment if we choose to give our time.

I am saying that it's wrong to say some kids can attend and other kids (like my son) can't because of their religion.

GA Mom

So the guys behind Duck Dynasty are entitled to their beliefs' date=' but the guys behind Lockheed-Martin are not.[/quote']

 

 

Neither is entitled to try to force their personal beliefs on another, especially when children are hurt in the process.

 

Phil Robertson did not come out and say that anyone should be compelled to believe as he does. He was asked his personal view of sin in an interview, and he gave it by quoting the Bible. Phil went on to say that he respects all people whether or not their beliefs are in agreement with his own.

 

i take the same view. If I were interviewed and asked the same question, I would also give a Biblically based answer. I would expect to not lose my job over it.

 

Lockheed is not stating a personal belief. They are trying to force their corporate beliefs on others by hurting kids. It is repulsive.

 

Can you imagine if our church based American Heritage Girls troop took the same view? Can you imagine the justified fallout if we turned children away from our troop activities because of their own personal religious beliefs? We do not. Neither does our church. All children are welcome. All adults are welcome for that matter, whether atheist, Hindu, gay, straight, we don't care.

 

We do care who teaches as a representative of the troop or the church. That is different. I have no problem telling an adult that if they wish to join our church leadership and serve as a teacher, then they need to agree with the beliefs of our church. I also have no problem being told that myself. I do not expect, as a Protestant, to be allowed to teach Sunday School at my friend's Catholic church. That would be ridiculous. I'm not Catholic. I do expect my children to be welcome at the Catholic church's kids' events, including the Boy Scout troop I hope my son will join, and they are.

 

Lockheed is excluding my nine year old son from an educational robotics program next year because Lockheed doesn't approve of the church he attends, the religion of his family, or the fact that we send him to a Scouting organization that aligns with our family's religion. That is wrong. Lockheed is continuing to offer the program to GSUSA, while excluding BSA and AHG.

 

I think expecting adults to adhere to a religion's beliefs on lifestyle and faith is perfectly fine if they freely choose as adults to belong to that church or organization. I think telling children they aren't welcome because the group doesn't agree with their faith is wrong.

 

The executives at Lockheed are completely entitled to any faith or beliefs they choose. If they want to send money to GLAAD instead of the Scouts because GLAAD is more in line with the executives' values, I think that's fine. That's freedom of speech. I have an equal right to send my donation money to groups that encourage values I think are important. If Lockheed had just stopped sending corporate donations to BSA, they'd have no criticism from me.

 

But Lockheed went further. They've told our community in Atlanta that Scouts like my son, and American Heritage Girls like my daughter are not welcome at their educational programs open to the public. That's wrong.

 

Bible thumper that I am, I actually agree with the recent BSA membership decision. Our church doesn't expel people who identify as gay, and I don't think the BSA should either. I do think it's fine to insist that people who want to lead in the organization adhere to the lifestyle and beliefs that the organization wishes to promote. I have no problem with saying "no gay leaders", just as I have no problem with saying "no gay Sunday School teachers" at my church. I also have no problem being told by my friend's Catholic church that it would not be appropriate for me to teach in their Sunday School because I am not Catholic. It's ok for people to have different beliefs and lifestyles. That's real tolerance.

 

GA Mom

Lockheed's decision is a major blow to Atlanta area Scouts, including my 9 year old Bear. We have been looking forward to the merit badge programs at Lockheed for years, which would have begun with Webelos next year for our family.

Lockheed is one of the crown jewels of the Atlanta area merit badge programs. Few other institutions match them for quality of offerings to Scouts of all ages. They have a well developed and long standing outreach program for children.

I have a low opinion of any company or group that is willing to hurt children to make a political point. This is cruel. If Lockheed wanted to withdraw funding from the national organization (where most of the money goes to overpaid executives anyway) that would have been an acceptable way to make a point.

But to tell a bunch of kids, including my nine year old son, who have been looking forward to this that they all of a sudden can't go because of decisions made by adults in which they had no part is small minded and nasty. If I had the opportunity to speak to the head of Lockheed, I would suggest he grow a pair. Hurting kids like this is never ok, for any reason. It is incredibly unbecoming for grown men to treat kids like this. I am angry on behalf of my son.

On the other matter....

I think Phil Robertson is completely entitled to his own personal religious beliefs, as they were stated. It is illegal under the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to suspend or fire anyone because of their expression of a personal religious belief.

I'm sure A&E were very well aware that the Robertson family are Christians. One of Phil's sons is a pastor. The entire Robertson family is involved in many Christian outreach ministries (Operation Christmas Child, etc.). For them to suddenly suspend/fire one of them for quoting a Bible verse and stating that the Bible forms his own personal belief about sexual relations and marriage, while also stating that he loves and respects everyone who does not share his belief, is stunningly stupid. Is A&E actually surprised that this family reads the Bible and bases their personal lives on it?

Amazing how those who scream "tolerance" the loudest are actually the most intolerant people I've ever seen.

I'm with Phil. The Bible forms my basis for my own personal behavior, too, to the best of my ability. I believe in monogamous hetersexual marriage, too, in my own life. Why would this be anyone else's business? How do my personal religious choices have any effect on people who don't share my beliefs: whether gay, unmarried, or whatever? Their personal lives are not my business, and my personal life is not their business. Can't we all get along?

I find it amazing that people outside the Christian church have so much trouble dealing with doctrinal differences when so many of us within the church deal with them just fine. I am Protestant. I have many Catholic friends. We have different beliefs on some very central parts of life (reproduction) and faith (transubstantiation, intercession by priests, etc). And yet we get along just fine. We respect each other. They don't try to change my beliefs, and I don't try to change theirs. Why can't GLAAD and similar get a grip and understand that we don't have to be identical to get along?

GA Mom

Dear NewToScoutsDad, from AlmostNewToScoutsMom,

I totally sympathize and understand your position. I have a younger daughter who had to attend with me when my son's Cub Scout pack needed me last year.

My husband often works late, and is often called to work unexpectedly. We have no family where we live now, and I cannot afford to pay a sitter $50 so that I can go volunteer. Therefore, my daughter often accompanied me. She was quiet and well behaved, more so than some of the Tiger Cubs.

I think every pack and every troop are a bit different. The comments indicating that younger children of either gender are an annoyance hit me in a sore spot due to the behavior of the leaders of my particular pack. Your mileage may vary.

In our pack, only 3 dads volunteer: CM, CC, and the camping coordinator (whose son will bridge this year). Everything else is done by the moms. We all have younger children, boys and girls. Two of the lady volunteers have young babies.

After leaving the post of Treasurer this summer (details in other posts), I started volunteering with American Heritage Girls this year on behalf of my daughter. It is a much more pleasant atmosphere in which to volunteer than Cub Scouts was for me. There are some things in AHG culture that I think would be a nice addition to Scouting:

1. AHG Troops integrate different ages instead of separating them all the time. This is not to say that the older girls don't get a chance to focus only on themselves and age appropriate activities. They absolutely do.

However, it is part of the older girls' training to lead the younger girls in activities from time to time. This fall, the older girls have organized a hike, leading the younger girls. They also organized a sleepover for the girls.

I am grateful my 7 year old daughter has these very sharp and professional young ladies of 12-15 or so to look up to. They are wonderful role models. I believe it is also a good teaching experience for the older girls to learn to lead. Isn't leadership a trait Scouts should be learning?

2. AHG does a better job of making it easy for parents to volunteer and integrate their other children than the BSA, in my opinion, having volunteered for both groups. My son often accompanies me to his sister's meetings because our family situation requires it. He sometimes participates, as he did with our "box of goodies for the troops" project this week. Sometimes, he works on his homework. Not once has anyone in AHG complained.

What the BSA has communicated to me as a parent is that they expect me to be a BSA volunteer first, and a parent to my own kids (all of them) second. I can't do that. I got tired of my daughter being left out. I got her into a program that was good for her, and took my volunteer time along with me. So have many of the other very tired moms in our pack. Maybe some packs and troops are so flush with volunteers that they can afford to make it obnoxious to volunteer for the BSA. I don't really understand the BSA's reasoning.

My son's CM and CC both need to pull their heads out. I fully expect they will be looking around in a year with no other volunteers at all dimly trying to figure out what happened and why they're stuck doing everything themselves.

My jaw hit the floor when our CC this fall had the gall to call my friend whose son is in my son's den and ask her to do all the shopping for the fall campout (about 100 people). On 24 hours notice. She was 8 1/2 months pregnant at the time with two younger children and was in pain just walking. But, hey, like the CC said, she has a Costco membership and can save the pack money. And she's been way too nice to them for the last two years. She has quit completely as a Scout volunteer. Maybe if they'd been a little more polite and reasonable, she might have been willing to come back. Now, she's pissed and will likely never volunteer for the BSA again, justifiably.

So, when I read notes like the one in this thread complaining about how all those pesky younger siblings get in the way and the adult volunteers should make other arrangements so they can put the troop first, I just shake my head and hope the BSA will get a clue before they lose any more adults willing to volunteer.

GA Mom

Brewmeister wrote: "GM, It says right in the document that you posted that units do not need to file a tax return."

 

Yes, I know. I posted the BSA financial guidelines to show the OP that his DE isn't even quoting his own organization's two page rulebook correctly, which puts the DE's competence in serious question.

 

I have stated previously that much of the BSA's advice to units and volunteers about federal taxes is wrong. Some of the BSA's advice agrees with federal tax law (like the part about not using a volunteer's SS# for pack finances). Some BSA advice goes directly against federal tax law, like what I was told by the BSA and our pack leaders about how it was ok for our pack income to not be included in any tax filings at all.

 

At least I knew from my previous experience with the IRS that the BSA and my pack leaders were telling me wrong. If that makes me "paranoid", fine. At least I have sense enough to learn after being burned once.

 

I have previously posted the links to the IRS documentation that anyone who can sign a check for the pack is a "responsible party", and personally liable for unfiled and unpaid taxes. It is true that the charter organization is supposed to file them on behalf of the pack, and most do. Packs generally do not file taxes because they are a part of the charter org, and the charter org includes the pack's finances in the CO"s 990 return.

 

The catch with my pack is that the charter org had *no treasurer at all* during the year I served. The treasurer moved out of state unexpectedly and it took them months to replace her. No one was in the chair to file the taxes at all. No one could sign checks either. Our CO (PTA) was a complete royal mess. The entire PTA board quit in a snit and just left the school hanging with programs unfunded. Our school's fall festival had to be called off this fall, to the great disappointment of the kids, due to the total mismanagement of last year's board.

 

Maybe all of you are dealing with responsible CO's that file taxes and take care of finances in a sane way. I was not that lucky.

 

So, knowing that there was no one at all at the PTA signing checks or filing taxes last spring, and knowing that I was personally liable if the pack's taxes were not filed (having been told to my face by an IRS agent) -- I checked to find out if anyone upstream at the PTA was filing taxes on behalf of the nonexistent treasurer and the board members who all resigned. Not only had last year's taxes not been filed, no one at the PTA had filed taxes on behalf of the pack all the way back to 2006, when it was founded.

 

So, I showed all this, including the IRS documentation to the pack leaders, and was again told to shut up.

 

So, I went to a qualified and licensed tax advisor (CPA) on my own time and my own dime to get real advice. I was told that I should send the correct figures in writing to all parties (PTA, BSA, and pack) and ask them to file the taxes, which I did. This got me an angry call from the BSA letting me know they were very angry all the way up to the state level.

 

Now, if the CO is supposed to file the taxes for the pack, I find it really hard to understand why it would be a bad thing to send the final year's income and expense numbers to the CO for them to file the taxes for the pack as they are supposed to do, but anyhoo....

 

"The CO is supposed to file the taxes for the pack, but you can't send them the numbers to file the taxes with...." ???

 

So, hey, no matter how ugly things get, I will go right on telling people to get a CPA to advise them on how to file the taxes and protect themselves personally if they choose to be BSA treasurers. If y'all want to poke the hive because you haven't been stung yet, y'all go right ahead. I have been pounded by the IRS once, for no other reason than the people who gave birth to me cheated the government. I have no need to be pounded again.

 

The people at the BSA council are not educated to tell me about my personal tax liability, nor are they licensed in my state to give me tax advice. Most of them can't even quote their own two page, error filled document correctly. I don't give a crap what they say.

 

GeorgiaMom

I don't believe most volunteers realize they are taking on a legal responsibility to the IRS on behalf of the pack or the troop when they agree to sign checks for the unit. I was not told this by the BSA or the CO, nor is it stated in any of their guidelines. I only knew because of past experience.

You're correct to say that my experience may not be representative of other units or CO's. I definitely got a perfect storm of failures at both.

I can say that I am tremendously disappointed in my Council and my District. When I approached them with the issues at the unit/CO level, I was told to stop talking about the matter with anyone. When I got professional advice from a licensed tax preparer and followed it, in the absence of help after requests to the Council and District, I got a very angry call at my home. It was totally unprofessional and out of line. If this is how professional Scouters handle a serious concern from a volunteer, then no thanks. I've taken my volunteer time elsewhere this year.

I wasn't sure my son and I would even be welcome back at the pack in the fall. I can say that I believe there is a pervasive problem at the BSA with their systematic shifting of legal responsibility to volunteers, who may not realize what they're taking on.

The entire charter system is designed to shift legal responsibility to the CO's and the units. The BSA goes to great lengths to make sure they are not responsible for anything. So, when things go wrong, who gets left holding the bag? Sometimes, the individual volunteer. I doubt many BSA volunteers realize that.

All this to say to the newbie treasurer that gave the OP: check everything for yourself. Don't assume that anyone at the CO, the unit, or the BSA has been handling the finances correctly. Check it for yourself because you are the one ultimately responsible to the IRS if others before you haven't been responsible.

GeorgiaMom

Brewmeister wrote: "GM, It says right in the document that you posted that units do not need to file a tax return."

Yes, I know. I posted the BSA financial guidelines to show the OP that his DE isn't even quoting his own organization's two page rulebook correctly, which puts the DE's competence in serious question.

I have stated previously that much of the BSA's advice to units and volunteers about federal taxes is wrong. Some of the BSA's advice agrees with federal tax law (like the part about not using a volunteer's SS# for pack finances). Some BSA advice goes directly against federal tax law, like what I was told by the BSA and our pack leaders about how it was ok for our pack income to not be included in any tax filings at all.

At least I knew from my previous experience with the IRS that the BSA and my pack leaders were telling me wrong. If that makes me "paranoid", fine. At least I have sense enough to learn after being burned once.

I have previously posted the links to the IRS documentation that anyone who can sign a check for the pack is a "responsible party", and personally liable for unfiled and unpaid taxes. It is true that the charter organization is supposed to file them on behalf of the pack, and most do. Packs generally do not file taxes because they are a part of the charter org, and the charter org includes the pack's finances in the CO"s 990 return.

The catch with my pack is that the charter org had *no treasurer at all* during the year I served. The treasurer moved out of state unexpectedly and it took them months to replace her. No one was in the chair to file the taxes at all. No one could sign checks either. Our CO (PTA) was a complete royal mess. The entire PTA board quit in a snit and just left the school hanging with programs unfunded. Our school's fall festival had to be called off this fall, to the great disappointment of the kids, due to the total mismanagement of last year's board.

Maybe all of you are dealing with responsible CO's that file taxes and take care of finances in a sane way. I was not that lucky.

So, knowing that there was no one at all at the PTA signing checks or filing taxes last spring, and knowing that I was personally liable if the pack's taxes were not filed (having been told to my face by an IRS agent) -- I checked to find out if anyone upstream at the PTA was filing taxes on behalf of the nonexistent treasurer and the board members who all resigned. Not only had last year's taxes not been filed, no one at the PTA had filed taxes on behalf of the pack all the way back to 2006, when it was founded.

So, I showed all this, including the IRS documentation to the pack leaders, and was again told to shut up.

So, I went to a qualified and licensed tax advisor (CPA) on my own time and my own dime to get real advice. I was told that I should send the correct figures in writing to all parties (PTA, BSA, and pack) and ask them to file the taxes, which I did. This got me an angry call from the BSA letting me know they were very angry all the way up to the state level.

Now, if the CO is supposed to file the taxes for the pack, I find it really hard to understand why it would be a bad thing to send the final year's income and expense numbers to the CO for them to file the taxes for the pack as they are supposed to do, but anyhoo....

"The CO is supposed to file the taxes for the pack, but you can't send them the numbers to file the taxes with...." ???

So, hey, no matter how ugly things get, I will go right on telling people to get a CPA to advise them on how to file the taxes and protect themselves personally if they choose to be BSA treasurers. If y'all want to poke the hive because you haven't been stung yet, y'all go right ahead. I have been pounded by the IRS once, for no other reason than the people who gave birth to me cheated the government. I have no need to be pounded again.

The people at the BSA council are not educated to tell me about my personal tax liability, nor are they licensed in my state to give me tax advice. Most of them can't even quote their own two page, error filled document correctly. I don't give a crap what they say.

GeorgiaMom

Hi Ksokolik,

I am a sadder but wiser former Cub Scout treasurer. Thank you for donating your time and effort to the kids.

Your DE is wrong about suggesting that you use your personal SS# to open the account. It is a bad idea for all the reasons you stated and more, plus it's against BSA's national fiscal guidelines, which you would reasonably expect a DE to know: http://www.bsaseabase.org/filestore/financeimpact/pdf/Fiscal_Policies_and_Procedures_for_BSA_Units.pdf

I walked into a perfect storm of bad bookkeeping and poor leadership. Our pack had not filed taxes on its income for seven years prior to my taking the job, nor had the chartering organization (on the pack's income). What I learned from my own experience is that much of what the BSA and the pack leaders insisted was true is wrong.

Having been through an IRS enforcement action as a teenager when my parents got in trouble for unfiled taxes, I was aware that most of what the Council and the pack leaders were telling me was incorrect. After being told to "not discuss the subject further with anyone" by the Council and the pack (and I mean calling me at home repeatedly and chewing me out), I went to my CPA to verify that my concerns were valid.

According to the CPA, they were. I followed the CPA's instructions (and the IRS written guidelines, and what I had been personally told by the IRS enforcement agent during my parents' ordeal), gave all the appropriate figures in writing to all the people who were supposed to file them with the IRS at the CO and the pack, and had my name removed from the bank account.

I know from hard personal experience that if you can sign a check, you can be held liable for unfiled or unpaid taxes. When it comes to any question of personal tax liability, I want answers from someone who is educated and licensed to give tax advice in my state. That means a CPA, tax attorney, or similar. NOT the DE, the Council, the pack leader who works at a hardware store, or the stay at home mom in charge of the CO (PTA).

It is not appropriate for the BSA to harass a volunteer because he or she consulted a CPA, insurance agent, or anyone else to make sure that the BSA's instructions would not lead to personal liability or problems. I quit. I have lost a tremendous amount of respect for the BSA.

Honestly, if your DE can't even correctly relay the BSA's own two page handout on fiscal policies for units, why would anyone trust him to give accurate advice on dealing with federal taxes?

For your own sake, please get professional advice on how to handle this. Being a treasurer for any group is a big responsibility, and you can be held personally liable if things aren't done correctly.

Good luck,

GeorgiaMom

Thank you for the good answers. I'm ordering the recommended Opinel from Amazon Prime today.

I need help. My son's den leader has announced on less than a week's notice that the Bears will be doing the whittling chip. I need to buy my son a pocket knife.

Can anyone offer guidance on the correct knife to buy for my 9 year old son who has no whittling experience? I'm hoping to find something I can buy from Amazon that he can safely use as a beginner and hopefully continue to use for a few years. I've read references on the internet to certain types of knives not being allowed by the BSA or various packs, but not much info on what *is* allowed.

My son's den leader has not responded to my question (typical for him), and scouting.org/scoutstuff has no specific guidance that I can find. I would really appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks,

Georgia Mom

Please consider that a parent may have a medical condition. Personally, I use a CPAP machine that requires electricity overnight. Several other parents in our pack also use them.

I have tried all the methods of making my machine work on batteries so I can tent camp, and they just don't work for me. Yes, I can get the blower to work on a battery, but not the heater. I can't sleep with cold air being forced down my lungs.

Several years ago, I had a bladder issue after a car accident hurt my back. Can you imagine trying to deal with self-catheterizing in a latrine?

So, please be gracious. The parent may have a medical need for the cabin, so please respect their privacy. Even though I medically cannot sleep outdoors in a tent, I still want my son to be able to attend.

Why would it be anyone else's business if I choose to rent a cabin for myself with my own money? The snippy comments above about this making the troop leader mad, or being an indicator that the parent (and the child) will be a bad fit for the troop are very rude, judgmental, and out of line. In my case, your speculation would be way off base and invasive. If the parent's "Plan B" isn't costing you or the troop any extra money or trouble, then please mind your own business.

Georgia Mom

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