BrotherhoodWWW

Hey Gern, yeah thanks for that! I see you are tolerant of others views. Folks that have tried to start their own are quickly issued a cease and desist order, thanks to the monopoly Uncle Sam has granted BSA although it seems they want the protection but do not want the other part. Yet this thread is not about Kudu's fight. I'm not saying that we don't need an outdoor ethic. I am saying that we already have one, and have had one since the Outdoor Code became a part of our organization. I have advocated since my youth for low impact camping. I've spent many a night in the wilds without a fire for companionship or to cook my food. I do not pick up every feather and shed that I find and I do not fill my pack or pockets with rocks. I do eat an occasional berry. Learned long ago that picked wild flowers die faster than you can get them to a vase. My point is I do not think we needed to adopt LNT. I think we already had it in not so many words, just not all together.

A sad thing it is but it seems the worst you can do for a pristine area is designate it wilderness. Surely then you will increase visits. Maybe this is just a phenomon of the Pacific Northwest as attested to the Central Cascades and specifically the Alpine Lakes Wilderness. Areas folks drive by to get there are not as crowded and actually more wild. As Scouts we do need to set the example. We need an ethic that is not location specific. LNT is a whole learning and teaching system of an ethic. I think we already have and had both of those in place. Tweaks to our teachings to be more evironmentaly friendly could havebeen done without LNT. For example the new latrine trench rather than the old deep hole. We need to remember what it is the boys are looking for when they join. Adding 7 more things to remember is not high on their list. KISS principles tell us that we should perhaps spend the time on giving them an opportunity for the adventure. We could introduce the added 7 principles in passing without making it a central theme of our program. Given a choice I would much rather Scouts learn the Oath and Law and apply those than LNT because by living the former you have most of the latter.

Anyone who believes that governmental land managers base their decisions on science are more naive than I was 30 years ago. It simply is not so; management decisions are as much political as science based. Look at all the damage our USFS has caused by them selves in the west by not controlling understory fuel and tirelessly putting out every wildfire.

I believe in responsible use of our natural resources which include conservation and protection for future generations. I do not think LNT does that, at least not how it is described in BSA publications. I think LNT is too complex and carries too much baggage. Plan and prepare is just like the first 3-7 steps on Google directions, already covered elsewhere. Our Motto is Be Prepared! We now have folks that belong to the department of redundancy department! Plan and prepare, hogwash, just Be Prepared! The plan part is what we should, scratch that, what the youth should be doing weeks and months before any outing, with our supervision of course.

I believe that LNT as an ethic is flawed in that I do not agree with the underlying thought process or philosophy that humans are not part of the natural wild world. We are not just a part we are the master of it! The problem with our urine and feces is that we do not eat and drink properly. If we are properly hydrated our urine is clear and not as concentrated. BTW I've been told that we shall pee on rocks if there are goats or sheep in the area as these critters will paw the dirt to rock to get the salt out.

LNT on the surface seems like a great ethic. It is only once I read more about it that I started to disagree and dislike it. To be intellectually honest I take offense to it. For example "Leave what you find" It all sounds good until they add "antlers" "feathers" "and even antique bottles" because wait for it..... do not want to spoil it for others. Antlers shed annually. In the East, where we seem to have the most problems with over-use, save some "National Parks" which by the way might not be a problem is only white settlers would not have deforested nearly the entire eastern half (hatred for dead rich white guys). I digress antlers are shed each year and left alone rarely if ever make it beyond one year. Those not gathered become squirrel food. We have such an overpopulation of white tailed deer in some places (and Canadian geese too) that they are killed en mass on roadways. Feathers, well as long as they are not from a protected species, yeah whatever. "Antique bottles" you have got to be kidding! Can't have it both ways. Either evidence of our passing or use is not desirable or it is. If our ancestor's garbage piles belong then so does my buried toilet paper that breaks down quickly sure is not going to hurt.

"Campfire impacts" Ok in the nearby wilderness, much over used by folks from the greater Puget Sound region I might add, fires above 5000' elevation are prohibited. Well yeah, that is mostly above treeline so it makes sense. I see the need to be careful with fire however most wildfires are caused by lightning. We should be aware and follow burn bans after all a Scout is Obedient. Others have posted thoughts on fires that I can agree with.

As I said I am mostly surrounded by wild lands of several types. Most of which might be considered front country and some that is much overused alpine and sub alpine wilderness. I've seen the damage dirt bikers have caused. I've seen the damage campers have caused. I've witnessed the damage a running elk herd causes. I've seen where elk droppings are as thick as cultivated strawberries, and this has been on marginal soils, or more properly a rock pile. All in an area that the WA Wildlife Department says does not have as many elk as they want and the bull to cow ratio is also off. Around here the problem is not a few Boy Scout Troops. If you want to save trees perhaps we should educate all those bulls and bucks to stop thrashing trees prior to and during mating season. Oh yeah that is right nature destroying itself is ok. We are part of nature folks. It is natural for us to walk among the wild places gathering berries, roots, antlers for tools, feathers for bling, and otherwise consuming a resource. All in moderation of course, which granted is somewhat taught in LNT.

Our impact on the wild animals. Perhaps in wild places we should not fish either. I so hate it when I catch a mountain lake trout that has a healed scar from a fish hook. Perhaps we should refrain so that those 100's of years later can, if they so choose possibly view a trout that has never been caught. Oh so that is overboard? We can disturb fish but not birds and mammals. Yup, them goats will stalk you in the high places waiting for you to pee. I find that disturbing!

Good thing I purchased a tent of neutral colors as my parachute teepee of orange and white is too much for others to have to see. When I top a rise and see tents in the area I remember what it was like before crowds went the same places I go. Pack it in pack it out and give a hoot don't pollute still seem enough for me and our Scouts today. The pandering of LNT in an effort to not offend others fails in that it, and the way it is preached offends me! I'm more in line with KISS or the way Mr. Maclean in A river Runs Through It taught his children to write...."good now half as long" until it was short and to the point.

The greater principle of Leave No Trace I embrace. I think with some changes it might even be a good ethic, but we are a long way from that.

LNT source document http://www.bsajamboree.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/TeachingLeaveNoTrace.aspx(This message has been edited by BrotherhoodWWW)

Peewee Jaycee wrestling... might still have my participation trophy somewhere.

Jr. high wrestling, never won any matches and was jv.

High School 4 years of Cross Country and Track. Broke 5:00 min in the mile freshman year. Personal best mile was 4:36 junior year which took SECOND in JV district meet.

Was involved in Scouting throughout it all.

In the parent thread Old Grey Eagle and others have raved about how great a thing leave no trace has been. I simply do not see it that way. Living where I do surrounded by wild lands including wilderness. I see LNT as pandering to the environmental extremist movement. The wild places around me are heavily used including the wilderness areas. LNT preaches to not leave a courtesy stack of firewood at a camp site. Something that once was a thoughtful practise. Where fires are allowed I do not see that as a bad thing to do. I feel the same about some camp improvements. To me there is nothing special about 7 rules when a simple sentence will work. Take only pictures, leave only footprints IMHO just about covers it. Removing evidence of our existence is overboard. That said I am not in favor of ditching of tents or otherwise causing damage.

I am in support of taking care of our resources so that they will be there for future generations. When my Troop goes camping we bring home more trash than we generated, same as my Troop did when I was a Scout. If other Scouts and troops are not doing the same an "innovation" of LNT is not going to make them do so. More requirements for advancement will not either. Leaders might simply sign off or around.

I like using velcro for some of my shirts. My unit shirts all have sewn on position patches as I figure I'll wear them enough. My District shirts have velcro as I wear several different patches. I think for older boys it might make some sense but only to save wear and tear on the shirt. You still need to sew the half to the POR patch, just as easy to sew the patch to the sleeve IMHO.

le Voyageur wrote "Failure to use a turn signal for a lane change could result in a reckless driving charge." and "For myself, I now drive with a radar detector that can't be picked up by any radar detector detector which gives on the low end a 3 mile warning, and on the high end up to 8 miles "

Perhaps in Virginia doing the first would fit reckless driving but not in my state. We have a charge "negligent driving" that might be used as such but the burden is on the LEO to articulate how failing to signal becomes negligent rather than simply failing to signal. There must be extra circumstances making it so.

How do you reconcile the second quote with "A Scout is obedient?" A speed limit is just that a limit that under ideal road, weather and traffic conditions it is legal to reach and maintain. Anything other than ideal and the driver should drive under the posted limit. In my state there is only one single circumstance where it is legal to exceed the posted speed limit; two lane road where the vehicle you are following is not maintaining the speed limit then the driver may exceed the posted limit a reasonable amount in order to safely complete a pass. Follow the traffic laws, all of them and you should be ticket free.

I'm guessing from your other posts that you are now or will be a Troop CC. The Scoutmaster should become your best friend! The COR should also be on your speed dial list and someone you are in frequent contact with. You and the SM need to share the same goals and vision for your unit; if they do not you need to work out the differences to a point that they do. Your job is to make sure the committee and parents give the SM resources and support so that he can enable the BOYS to run their program. Instead of asking for volunteers make it personal and ask specific people to do specific tasks. This makes it much harder to hide in the back. Make sure someone from your unit represents the unit at the district level, should be the COR but that does not always happen.

It appears that you live in a neighboring District to me. I'm just to the east of you in Elensburg. The page looks good. I think I'll pass on a link to the rest of my District Committee.

To me it seems along the lines of change for the sake of change. "Develop new metrics for measuring the outcomes of Scouting in youth, families, and communities." translation will change the scoring system to make whatever the outcome seem great.

We'll just see what effect this really has on the unit. I'm thinking not much. My Troop will still camp and hike. We'll still teach compass based navigation. We will strive to teach the Ideals as a way of life with our outings the "classroom."

Specifics:

error page when I tried to update roster while in internet rechartering

error page when I tried to access internet advancement

Scouting community errors:

Groups no longer work much if any

errors when performing simple navigation within the site

slow page loads

login hangs then resutls in an error

Others having problems creating a login to Myscouting to take Youth Protection Training

Neil, a bit of feedback in case you missed it the first time around. I'm with John in expressing displeasure at the choice of times. Living within the Pacific Time Zone and working a job from 7am to 5 pm m-f your times simply did not work for me. 8PM Central would have been much better.

The resource was still broken for me last night 11PM PST with Win 7 and both IE8 and FF. I am mostly disappointed with their IT department, however this is due to what I see as it not being a high priority for them. There are some folks in that department that are very helpful, work hard, care about the job they do and providing good service. It seems that they are busy doing things other than what I think is important.

Yeah not too sure it is being used as a noun in the title. Seems to fit like a glove the third or fouth definition as a transitive verb in at least one dictionary, closed the link a day or so ago..... follow to a thesaurus and insert any or several synonyms and it still makes sense.

Lisabob perhaps this link will help: http://tinyurl.com/2bu2t8b

Sometimes it really is simply a matter of checking what BSA says. It appears to me that national is attempting to get more adult participation in Scouting.

T2Eagle, registered Scoutparents do not get coverage of our insurance also they do not have to provide a SSAN or pay the membership fee. No fee equals no Scouting magazine but with it available online I see that as no big deal.

At one time in my life I made my living driving. What has always worked for me is a cup of coffee and then water sips often. Frequent stops to walk a bit help. There really is not much substitute for a good nights sleep the night before. Eat a lite lunch if possible. If eating dinner before leaving avoid carbs. If you get too tired which I define as the eyes close more than a blink then pull over and nap, then walk.

I am alwsys amused by folks that are surprised by the test out option. It shows a clear lack of knowledge of what is in current literature. I.E. current printing of the SMHB makes the test out option very clear.

I think training chairs and their staff need to keep in mind that the job of the district is UNIT SERVICE!

You might send an email to a section officier that might be on your region's training staff for the NLS you attended.

All of you that replied today after 8 AM Pacific time might want to go back a read what the OP posted prior to that. ScoutNut may be an exception. It seems that Bart is having a problem with the on-line trip permit not the paper one.

BadenP, perhaps your problem with the award is that the award has two current names. A Scouter can not simply go to one meeting a month and earn this award. There are lots of folks that work behind the scenes and put in far more time, sweat, and tears than many ASM's and even many SM's that earn this award. The required work to earn the award is the same with the noted exception of IOLS being added to SM/ASM.

I doubt that most of the folks that earn this award in a position other than SM/ ASM skated to get it. It is my position that all those that have satisfied the requirements for this award have indeed earned it. The simple fact that some do more and some do less in Scouting is just a matter of life. Do you go camping with your committee folks? Do they interact with the Scouts in your unit. Is there something you can do to include them?

BadenP if your point is that you do not feel that those adults in roles other than SM and ASM should not be eligible for the Scouter training award thanks for that opinion. Seems like an arrogant opinion to me. As Bart points out if Committee folks fulfill their jobs as proscribed in the training literature their jobs are direct contact in nature, perhaps moreso than an ASM. Each committee position other than COR and CC has a specific Scout POR assigned to be mentored by the adult. CC' when they are doing their jobs work just as hard as any ASM I've ever met.

Yup, thanks ScoutNut, please report back so we all know more. I went to sign up this weekend knowing that each session is only open to 100 people and sure enough once again those of us that live in the Pacific time zone are discriminated against. The only evening sessions start at 5:00 PM so it is impossible for those of us that work until 5 daily to attend, just like the Centennial kickoff earlier this year. Guess to actually view a session I'll have to either ditch work or skip an already scheduled Troop or District event.

Based on BSA's track record I sure hope they are just planning to rename the Goodturn site. Sadly access to this site is dependent on folks being registered properly, something that still is not 100%.

I mostly agree with CalicoPenn about the need for a four season tent only if you are climbing tall mountians. However a four season tent that I use is pictured on the following page: blackwalnutjigs.com/images/elkcamp'04.jpg

sorry but you'll have to copy/ paste the link

BTW yes it is mine and it is heated by wood!

For Scout camping spend your money on sleeping bags and pads rather than tents. Temps above slightly below freezing can be very comfortable in a three season tent. If the ground is frozen increase the size of the stakes and use a hammer.(This message has been edited by brotherhoodWWW)(This message has been edited by BrotherhoodWWW)

IOLS IMHO should be nearly as big a deal as Wood Badge..... well at least half as big a deal anyway. It really requires a big staff and a CD. It also needs to be done with long range planning. Sounds like you were thrown under the bus, don't let that happen again! In the front of the training guide there is a timetable to doing this course; follow it more or less. Set the date for next years course and assign a CD this week then fill in all the other staff asap. Make the course hands on learning. Have the participants model real patrols for the course, camping together (if possible) but surely cooking and eating together as a patrol as well as cleaning up using the methods in the BSHB. It may be helpful to get to know the OA Chapter Advisor for your district and get him/ her to ask Arrowmen to help staff your course. I did this in the course I chaired last spring and the participants really liked the interaction. This also helps to teach the participants who should be in charge anyway. Although doing this course in a Scout Camp might seem like a great idea the camp's dining hall should really have no part of the course. These leaders should be expected to be prepared for the weather and should be able to function in the outdoors even in rain, although being smart about major storms could change your plans.

Back to my opening statement..... We do ours on a three day schedule; 3-4 hours on a Thursday followed by an actual campout Friday and Saturday. Like a WB course there is a need for many staff members and a long range plan where to give the participants the best quality training lots of little things need to happen. As Lisabob mentioned teachers understand the logistics but unlike her point there are lots of other folks with these same skills. Find one with these skills and get them to agree to be your CD.

What I see interesting is the seeming disconnect with either how the Boy Scout advancement program is presented in the literature and the requirement of handing out badges at a Court of Honor. Do the folks that come up with this stuff not know the rest of the material or are they trying to simplify things, or is it that many units already do it "wrong" and so they simply are going with that, or is it that they are actually trying to change the "right" way of handing out awards. Reference Advancement Policy and Proceedures manual where it states that boys shall be recongized several times upon completing advancement.... "present the boy with his badge (merit or rank) as soon as possible after completing the advancement...."

At my Dist. Committee meeting last night our DE gave us a printout of all the webinairs for unit folks which was a short list and each is limited to 100 people by preregistration and that seems to not even scratch the surface of getting the info to units. Perhaps a good spinoff would be why BSA does not use their built in comissioner structure to roll out this new award. Seems like they are using a shotgun approach to get this out.

ScoutBox, here in the US and in courses controlled by BSA all should be seeing the same course, same movies, and same movie clips. Now it is possible that some are not presenting the course as it is given to them.

Perhaps your premiss is incorrect. A Scoutmaster except for a new Troop does not need the skills of the requirements of the program as much as he needs the ability to communicate and associate with boys and adults. The Scoutcraft knowledge is passed down by the boy teaching the boy and is covered in the BSHB as well as a number of other publications. IOLS introduces to leaders the skills scouting uses. Good adult leaders understand that learning is a constant process not a one time deal.

Skills of scoutcraft do not always require practice for folks to retain their knowledge. I learned to tie a sqare knot as a boy and have been doing so correctly ever since as well as a host of other knots. After a several year break from the outdoors my fire was lit with a single match because I remembered how it is done.