Brewmeister

If the CC won't step in your only choice is the chartered org, who may not have any idea what's going on (or care to) either.

 

If the PLC got the troop to present a completely unified front, would the SM still stand in the way?

If the CC won't step in your only choice is the chartered org, who may not have any idea what's going on (or care to) either.

If the PLC got the troop to present a completely unified front, would the SM still stand in the way?

While I agree that open water courses are the best for the award, it has been acceptable to do it in a pool for decades. Also agree that the spotter and/or observer should add lengths or disqualify if stops are made with feet down, it is not easier necessarily in a pool. I have done 25 official swims in lakes, the ocean, or pools, and frankly, the constant losing of momentum with the turns is tiring; and often you also have to contend with other swimmers either doing laps or just fooling around, which can cause collisions and unexpected water in your mouth. Most camps at which I have done it require a quarter early in the week, and sometimes a half too, before doing the total distance. It has always been a personal thing with me that I have done a few extra lengths to be sure I made the distance and did not miscount or have my observer miscount; and I have felt annoyed at times when they allow kids to stop and start. Ultimately, you always know if you actually did the real thing; and you live with your self judgments.

 

I do not agree with the occasional camp that has allowed a cumulative swim, giving credit for a quarter one day, then another the next and so on.

 

Had one older scout who only made it to first class due to swimming issues, go with me to count in a pool. He decided he wanted to try it. But the only stroke he did well was the elementary back stroke. So, he did it, on his back almost the entire way. He is now a Lt. Colonel in the army and was a Ranger. He jokes that if the gear in the water test was any longer, he would likely be a grunt forever. His daughter already has had extensive lessons, and he will soon put his son in them as well, and he is only 3 I think.

While I agree that open water courses are the best for the award, it has been acceptable to do it in a pool for decades. Also agree that the spotter and/or observer should add lengths or disqualify if stops are made with feet down, it is not easier necessarily in a pool. I have done 25 official swims in lakes, the ocean, or pools, and frankly, the constant losing of momentum with the turns is tiring; and often you also have to contend with other swimmers either doing laps or just fooling around, which can cause collisions and unexpected water in your mouth. Most camps at which I have done it require a quarter early in the week, and sometimes a half too, before doing the total distance. It has always been a personal thing with me that I have done a few extra lengths to be sure I made the distance and did not miscount or have my observer miscount; and I have felt annoyed at times when they allow kids to stop and start. Ultimately, you always know if you actually did the real thing; and you live with your self judgments.

 

I do not agree with the occasional camp that has allowed a cumulative swim, giving credit for a quarter one day, then another the next and so on.

 

Had one older scout who only made it to first class due to swimming issues, go with me to count in a pool. He decided he wanted to try it. But the only stroke he did well was the elementary back stroke. So, he did it, on his back almost the entire way. He is now a Lt. Colonel in the army and was a Ranger. He jokes that if the gear in the water test was any longer, he would likely be a grunt forever. His daughter already has had extensive lessons, and he will soon put his son in them as well, and he is only 3 I think.

I have done 25 official swims in lakes, the ocean, or pools, and frankly, the constant losing of momentum with the turns is tiring.

No way. Even someone with a modest push off the wall can easily glide a fair length of the pool before having to start stroking again. A moderately capable flip-turner even more so. Absolutely now way that lap swimming in a pool would ever be more tiring than contending with open water under any conditions.

It depends what your goal is.

If your goal is to give the boy his patch, by all means have him swim laps in the pool. If you want him to learn how to swim in actual conditions that he might be faced with in Scouting, have him swim in open water as the requirements imply, but do not technically demand.

We turn Scouting into After-School School: What every boy hates, has always hated, and will continue to hate until the end of time.

 

Well, not every boy...there seem to be a fair number out there whose moms are motivated by patches, who want a box to check on their college application, or who lack the ambition or desire to leave the school cafeteria and go for a walk.

I don't think swimming in a pool meets the intent of this award. Take it from someone who does (ok, did) triathlons: pool swimming is WAY different than open water swimming. Requirement 1 mentions "distance swimming over open water":

1. Tell what precautions and procedures a swimmer and escort must follow for distance swimming over open water.
   

Requirement 4 talks about a measured course. That clearly implies that a "course" is involved rather than 32 laps.

What draconian helmet rule? Oh yeah, I think it's the one we've never heard of...

I was thinking of putting a sign on my door for the trick-or-treaters that read, "Due to the Government Shut-Down this house has no candy," but I think this will work better.

You should see some of the rock head stuff that goes on over there.

 

Kudu is over there getting bet up as well.

 

What worries me the most is that website is a link from facebook and I fear that group is more representative of what is going on in scouting than is forum......

 

I am going to say that Scouter.com represents the .00001%'ers.

 

Bryan on scouting represents the light and fluffy Facebook, millennial feel good everybody gets a trophy generation.

We spend a lot of time in these forums talking about doing the requirements as written and how all these "high speed, low drag" approaches are killing the sanctity of advancement.

 

So then, the requirement says: teach a younger Scout the skills from ONE of the following six choices, so that he is prepared to pass those requirements to his unit leader’s satisfaction.

 

​Since a Venturing scout cannot pass second or first class requirements, clearly this requirement involves working with a Boy Scout. So, go out and find a troop and offer to teach those requirements.

This is really funny stuff coming from someone who likes to criticize everything that anyone else does that doesn't follow the book. But whatever, you're the unit leader. Sign off on whatever makes you happy happy happy.

Anyway' date=' if he does come back, should we be working to catch him up?[/quote']

 

Absolutely, unequivocally, NO. If it's important to the boy/family, he can catch up on his own.

 

Unfortunately he can come to a meeting with every requirement signed off by mom and there is not much you can do about it.

 

We spend a lot of time in these forums talking about doing the requirements as written and how all these "high speed, low drag" approaches are killing the sanctity of advancement.

 

So then, the requirement says: teach a younger Scout the skills from ONE of the following six choices, so that he is prepared to pass those requirements to his unit leader’s satisfaction.

 

​Since a Venturing scout cannot pass second or first class requirements, clearly this requirement involves working with a Boy Scout. So, go out and find a troop and offer to teach those requirements.

We spend a lot of time in these forums talking about doing the requirements as written and how all these "high speed, low drag" approaches are killing the sanctity of advancement.

 

So then, the requirement says: teach a younger Scout the skills from ONE of the following six choices, so that he is prepared to pass those requirements to his unit leader’s satisfaction.

 

​Since a Venturing scout cannot pass second or first class requirements, clearly this requirement involves working with a Boy Scout. So, go out and find a troop and offer to teach those requirements.

We spend a lot of time in these forums talking about doing the requirements as written and how all these "high speed, low drag" approaches are killing the sanctity of advancement.

So then, the requirement says: teach a younger Scout the skills from ONE of the following six choices, so that he is prepared to pass those requirements to his unit leader’s satisfaction.

​Since a Venturing scout cannot pass second or first class requirements, clearly this requirement involves working with a Boy Scout. So, go out and find a troop and offer to teach those requirements.

Yep, the porcupines will have a 4-person group limit next season, or so I was told by the ranger.

Any unit should not pay for Wood Badge, period. Wood Badge is not about position-specific training. In fact, one of the messages we got on our first day of WB was "It's All About Me." In other words, you spend all your other scouting time doing stuff for others, Wood Badge is all about YOU. Since it's all about you and the befits to the unit are tangential at best (ticket items notwithstanding), why would any unit pay?

Adjoining Camp Sites...spread out..or Find Camps which allow larger groups. Here in Texas the Park Rangers usually don't harass the Scouters. Vehicles are spread out among the Camp Sites. Park Rangers are Cordially invited to All Meals. We voluntarily help Clean the Camp Facilities.. Remember "Do a Good Deed Daily". We enforce the rules, We are quite, We Don't run through other Camp Sites. [h=2]Texas State Park Youth Group Annual Pass[/h] The Youth Group Annual Pass is a special program for youth groups 13-17 years of age. Purchased as an annual pass for nonprofit youth groups, the permit waives entry fees for youth group members (13-17 years of age) and a reasonable number of accompanying adult sponsors. The permit is $100 per year and is limited to groups of 50.

When we had set up our trip in spring the maximum group size was 12. By the time the trip rolled around they had cut that to 6. Next year it will be 4. With a group size of four, if adults are needed, that is a one-to-one ratio.

So as I look to that as a possible destination again in the future, I'm just not sure how to make it work in a scout context.

Any unit should not pay for Wood Badge, period. Wood Badge is not about position-specific training. In fact, one of the messages we got on our first day of WB was "It's All About Me." In other words, you spend all your other scouting time doing stuff for others, Wood Badge is all about YOU. Since it's all about you and the befits to the unit are tangential at best (ticket items notwithstanding), why would any unit pay?

I don't think that ad hoc patrols is the real reason for the problem of attendance. As a matter of fact they are simply a work around for a bigger problem that is basically ignored because it's easier to make up the rules along the way than it is to solve the problem.

 

A) We have low attendance at our events.

B) So we combine patrols to keep from dealing with A above.

C) Boys that show up have fun, the rest miss out. But that's okay, those that showed up had fun.

 

What's wrong with attacking the problem at the A level? Why is there low attendance in the first place. If one can solve that problem, then the issue of ad hoc patrols becomes moot... AND ALL the boys have fun.

 

Stosh

Group sizes can be limited in certain wilderness areas. However you could easily have enough interest for an outing within a troop where you would be 2, 3, or more times the group size. For instance, the maximum group size per site in the Porcupine Mountains is 4 per remote campsite, which is not even a full patrol.

So, what are the ways you deal with this? Many patrols with different itineraries...limit participation...other?? I feel I'm overlooking an obvious solution somewhere as this must be a common issue.

I don't think that ad hoc patrols is the real reason for the problem of attendance. As a matter of fact they are simply a work around for a bigger problem that is basically ignored because it's easier to make up the rules along the way than it is to solve the problem.

 

A) We have low attendance at our events.

B) So we combine patrols to keep from dealing with A above.

C) Boys that show up have fun, the rest miss out. But that's okay, those that showed up had fun.

 

What's wrong with attacking the problem at the A level? Why is there low attendance in the first place. If one can solve that problem, then the issue of ad hoc patrols becomes moot... AND ALL the boys have fun.

 

Stosh

We reorganized from 6 patrols to 3 patrols of 8. History has shown that we'll get 5 to 6 boys per patrol at any particular event and that is a very functional amount in my opinion. At least it's a place to start.

To some extent you can address that problem by letting your go-getters set their own pace in getting to a predetermined spot for the day. When they get there early they can do their own thing.

That's not feasible with every destination and itinerary I suppose.

What I am seeing is the Adults are over thinking it....

 

What do the boys want???? Why is this a troop and not a Patrol activity?

 

Young scouts aren't going to plan a 30 mile weekend trip..... Fluffy body type scouts aren't going to go backpacking at all if they have a choice.

 

I attended a Backpacking district camporee in a neighboring council....The camporee was in April so you had lots of new crossovers along. It was 10 miles along a river to the camp ground.....We passed more than a few very young scouts broken down in tears along the trail. Then it was 10 more miles then next day back to the parking lot, It was more rugged. Lots more boys broken down in tears completely exhausted with way too much gear on their backs for their size.

 

I learned from the experience and what I witnessed. I would never take the average new crossover on a trek like that, most of them simply don't have the physical strength to do it. Shakedown everyones gear ever trip..... watch the weight.

 

​I wonder how many boys that camporee cost scouting.

OWL training is not REQUIRED for anything--even to take Webelos camping. But it is a good idea if you do so.