Brewmeister

Units don't control the youth's membership with BSA, which is why a youth can be a member of multiple units but will still have the same ID number.

A unit can kick a youth off the unit roster but the boy is still a member unless national revokes membership.

I took the plunge over the weekend and bought a Grand Truck skeeter beater. I took a short nap in it Saturday afternoon. The maiden voyage is in a few weeks. I'm trying to decide on a dedicated fly or just a tarp.

You'll have to report how you like the way it hangs/lays. Since it does not have the structural ridge line of something like a Hennessey I think you will need to hang it loose to keep it stable (so it doesn't flip over). So, that might also give you more of the "banana" feel when you lay in it. Not sure because I haven't tried one but it's a nice price point if it works so let us know.

This is yet another dilemma boy scouting is facing today, actually learning the skills and earning the MB's and rank badges has become go as fast as possible and using minimum effort get as many badges as possible and the final prize of Eagle by 14 and in the process learning very little, retaining virtually nothing, and having a substandard scouting experience. Reasons for much of this are lazy leaders, incompetent MB counselors, poor programs, and council/National pushing easier and simpler requirements. IMO scouting today for many boys is unchallenging, boring , and not much fun because of poorly run programs. You want boys to join scouts then make it really challenging for them, make them really earn those badges while having fun in the process instead of pandering to boys who really do not want to be or should be in scouts along with their helicopter parents.

Sports, academics, almost every other youth activity--all can be objectively judged by how one boy performs against another. The one who is the most skilled earns the starting role and is team captain. The marker to scouting progress is not as clear as yards gained, touchdowns scored, or math problems answered correctly. That leads to the problems you describe.

I talked to the boys about this at our campout this past weekend. I explained the reason we thought the patrols should be reformed and they agreed. I asked them how they thought we should do that, and after coming up with a few different ideas they unanimously agreed "at random." I tried to play devil's advocate and asked them, well, what happens if you randomly get separated from your better friends in the troop or put with boys you don't like as much? They said well, that's just the way it works--you have to learn to work with people you don't get along with. So....random it may be. Although I believe we should "randomly" draw by ages so that ages are at least somewhat distributed among the patrols for competitions that involve physical skill and so on.

 

I'm sure there will be many differences of opinion....

Based on the suggestions made and questions asked, it became clear that the problem wasn't necessarily low attendance, but too many small patrols so that any drop off would necessitate recombination (or a bunch of very small patrols).

I know that VeniVidi recommended against reorganizing the patrols because "the groundwork hasn't been laid." However, right now the patrols are neither well-functioning nor cohesive, so what's the risk? Additionally, we took the opportunity to lay the groundwork and the reasons for it with the boys at the campout.

As to the life lesson the boys will learn from this? We simply haven't flown up to the 30,000 foot mark to figure out how this fits into the grand scheme of their lives. At this point it really is a tactical solution targeted at a specific objective/problem. It will either work, or it won't, and we'll either be better off or right where we are now.

So, that's the thinking.

I talked to the boys about this at our campout this past weekend. I explained the reason we thought the patrols should be reformed and they agreed. I asked them how they thought we should do that, and after coming up with a few different ideas they unanimously agreed "at random." I tried to play devil's advocate and asked them, well, what happens if you randomly get separated from your better friends in the troop or put with boys you don't like as much? They said well, that's just the way it works--you have to learn to work with people you don't get along with. So....random it may be. Although I believe we should "randomly" draw by ages so that ages are at least somewhat distributed among the patrols for competitions that involve physical skill and so on.

 

I'm sure there will be many differences of opinion....

They appreciated the opportunity to have input into the process, finally, and I think their observations were remarkably astute. Will it work? I don't know, but it can always be changed. From my point of view, it has a better chance of success in cultivating teamwork and leadership than we have now. And if it doesn't we are no worse off than we are today.

I talked to the boys about this at our campout this past weekend. I explained the reason we thought the patrols should be reformed and they agreed. I asked them how they thought we should do that, and after coming up with a few different ideas they unanimously agreed "at random." I tried to play devil's advocate and asked them, well, what happens if you randomly get separated from your better friends in the troop or put with boys you don't like as much? They said well, that's just the way it works--you have to learn to work with people you don't get along with. So....random it may be. Although I believe we should "randomly" draw by ages so that ages are at least somewhat distributed among the patrols for competitions that involve physical skill and so on.

I'm sure there will be many differences of opinion....

How long is the longest available charging cable?

Not a new problem and not unique to your troop. Ultimately you can only control what you can control and trying to do otherwise will drive you nuts.

What is your son doing with the badges that aren't completely earned? Ask him what he thinks he should do, if anything, and use it as an opportunity for growth.

Once you iron out that mess have his parents teach the finer points of selling popcorn door to door

I don't use this but I do use a BioLite stove: http://www.biolitestove.com/

Really, weighs about the same as a backpack stove plus fuel bottle, and it burns whatever twigs you find lying around. And it charges your cell phone. Yeah it's not necessary but it does have the cool factor going for it...

Some things may be technically ok but you know in your heart they're wrong. This is one of those things. Just doesn't pass the smell test.

Why not do a potluck? When we have a committee meeting in the summer we have it at one of the committee member's houses. We grill out, everyone brings something.

I mean, the committee members are NOT incurring an expense they wouldn't have had anyway. They would have eaten with or without the committee meeting, right? It's not an extra expense.

Let's see, we could also:

-Bill the Pack for mileage

-Ask for a uniform reimbursement

-Turn in a pro-rated bill for my utilities for every time I send an email to the Pack

I'm sure I could think of a few more things too.

If it doesn't go directly into the program, I look pretty hard at the expense. If in doubt, put it on the budget and make sure the parents have the opportunity to see it by virtue of it being presented at an open parent/committee meeting.

Our pack was up, more than double from last year, and the best year ever in its history, despite declining school enrollment.

This is MUCH better than things used to be back when I joined the Pack and it was a one-man show. I believe the reason for the growth in the number of boys is all the recruiters we have and the increased visibility of the program in the community, the latter of which accrues to the unit leaders. The reason for the increase in involved parents begins with the expectation that is set in the Tiger year as well as the visibility and enthusiasm of the parent volunteers at events, etc.

It's never easy but momentum does build in a program, either positively or negatively.

Ok, so in reviewing the roster, some things became clear. When you discount boys who will probably fall off the roster this year because they have not been around, we have 24 active boys. So thinking back, our typical campout attendance is usually between 15-18. So we are actually pushing 75% which seems pretty typical--the problem is that we have 6 patrols as follows:

 

6 6th grade

6 7th grade

5 8th grade

3 9th grade

4 11th grade

 

Therefore, the reason we usually end up with 3 ad hoc patrols is that it reflects the natural breakdown of what the troop should be; i.e., 3 patrols.

 

I had a discussion with the SM and he agreed that having 3 patrols would be optimal and that we should let the boys self-organize into those patrols. Now this is a huge step for us--normally the troop plunks boys into a NSP and they stay together until the end.

 

Ideally we'd see 3 patrols of 8, but...who knows what will happen.

 

Reading the threads here, there seems to be as many ways of having boys organize their patrols as there are troops. I can't remember how we did it when I was a scout and if it was covered in leader training I either missed it or have forgotten it. I do believe that giving the scouts a parameter for the number of patrols desired (3) is the way to go. Yes, I've read the discussions in other threads about letting boys make as many as they want and learn from their mistakes but that's not what we're going to do.

 

So with that backdrop, what are the ideas for having the boys reorganize into 3 patrols?

Can we drill down one more level to the pragmatic? So, you are at the next troop meeting and it is time to reorganize the patrols. You do...what? This is where I am stuck.

Ok, so in reviewing the roster, some things became clear. When you discount boys who will probably fall off the roster this year because they have not been around, we have 24 active boys. So thinking back, our typical campout attendance is usually between 15-18. So we are actually pushing 75% which seems pretty typical--the problem is that we have 6 patrols as follows:

 

6 6th grade

6 7th grade

5 8th grade

3 9th grade

4 11th grade

 

Therefore, the reason we usually end up with 3 ad hoc patrols is that it reflects the natural breakdown of what the troop should be; i.e., 3 patrols.

 

I had a discussion with the SM and he agreed that having 3 patrols would be optimal and that we should let the boys self-organize into those patrols. Now this is a huge step for us--normally the troop plunks boys into a NSP and they stay together until the end.

 

Ideally we'd see 3 patrols of 8, but...who knows what will happen.

 

Reading the threads here, there seems to be as many ways of having boys organize their patrols as there are troops. I can't remember how we did it when I was a scout and if it was covered in leader training I either missed it or have forgotten it. I do believe that giving the scouts a parameter for the number of patrols desired (3) is the way to go. Yes, I've read the discussions in other threads about letting boys make as many as they want and learn from their mistakes but that's not what we're going to do.

 

So with that backdrop, what are the ideas for having the boys reorganize into 3 patrols?

This is one more step in the direction of moving toward a boy led model. What we hope the boys leave the troop with is the stronger ability to take care of themselves and others in a variety of life situations, while living by the principles of the Oath and Law.

As you point out, we need a process to point them toward that vision which, in this case, is represented by the need to form regular patrols. So, rather than simply say, "Go ye into the wilderness, formeth three patrols of thy own design, and returneth when thou knowest thy patrol name and yell," we'd like to provide said guidance....

Ok, so in reviewing the roster, some things became clear. When you discount boys who will probably fall off the roster this year because they have not been around, we have 24 active boys. So thinking back, our typical campout attendance is usually between 15-18. So we are actually pushing 75% which seems pretty typical--the problem is that we have 6 patrols as follows:

6 6th grade

6 7th grade

5 8th grade

3 9th grade

4 11th grade

Therefore, the reason we usually end up with 3 ad hoc patrols is that it reflects the natural breakdown of what the troop should be; i.e., 3 patrols.

I had a discussion with the SM and he agreed that having 3 patrols would be optimal and that we should let the boys self-organize into those patrols. Now this is a huge step for us--normally the troop plunks boys into a NSP and they stay together until the end.

Ideally we'd see 3 patrols of 8, but...who knows what will happen.

Reading the threads here, there seems to be as many ways of having boys organize their patrols as there are troops. I can't remember how we did it when I was a scout and if it was covered in leader training I either missed it or have forgotten it. I do believe that giving the scouts a parameter for the number of patrols desired (3) is the way to go. Yes, I've read the discussions in other threads about letting boys make as many as they want and learn from their mistakes but that's not what we're going to do.

So with that backdrop, what are the ideas for having the boys reorganize into 3 patrols?

BP had the right idea when he said patrols needed to be 6-8 boys. Even if half don't show up for an event, one never has less than 3 to 4 boys in a patrol. If 7 boys bail on an event so as to have only one boy attending, I would reconsider the activity in the first place. If only one boy wants to go, is it enough to even call it a patrol outing let alone a troop outing? Having activities for the sake of having activities isn't enough justification, especially if the vast majority of boys are taking a pass on it.

 

Stosh

There is a myth a lot of adults hold to that Boy Scouts is the boys program; it is not. Boy Scouts is an adult program designed to develop boys into men who make ethical decisions. What are the expectations of your adults for your troop? That being said, I know how hard it is to change a culture, but the adults have to decide if they are satisfied with the status quo. My son and his wife are both high school teachers in to different high risk schools, but with basically the same student demographic. Ninety Seven percent of last years graduating class of one school went on to college. The other school had far less than 50 percent. When I asked him what was different between the two schools, he said "expectation". Your troop can do better if the adults want it. Barry

The cards that we are given--because I'm not a member of the key 3--is that ad hoc patrols are most likely a fact in this troop because of its history and culture.

It may well be that the best answer is to re-deal the cards--to change the culture--but that is another discussion. Right now I am looking for insight into how to improve the situation with the stated constraints based on the experience of troops that run a similar program.

Hey, how about an update on this thread?

So our first backpacking trip is in the books. As it turned out, we ended up with adults who came along for leadership needs who either had gear or thought the gear was cool enough so they bought it on their own. Over the summer we did a number of shakedown hikes where we tried out different stoves and recipes. Had a few "pocket rocket" stoves that worked just fine for our purposes. I had invested in a Katadyn base camp filter (different thread on that one) which worked well until it plugged up so we went to a backup that another dad brought along. Several of the boys had filter bottles as well which I am particularly fond of. Eschewed the dining fly and some of the older boys just slept under a tarp.

Our group ended up being pretty small--6 boys and three adults. The age range in boys was quite wide and I worried that might be a problem. However the shakedown hikes had identified where the problems might be so we were prepared.

On the actual trip it became readily apparent that the oldest boys had quite a bit more horsepower so we let that group go ahead up to the planned campsite for the day to set up and just explore, while the adults stayed back with the younger scouts and took it slow. That was a very good decision.

Preparation paid off and we could probably go the beg-and-borrow model for gear for the next trip as well while the troop decides if it has the resources and the program appetite to supplement our current plop-camping supplies with lightweight gear.

Admittedly I did a lot more of the planning than I normally would but the goal was to get this off the ground and try to move the boys in this direction by exposing them to the possibility and a successful outing. Hopefully in the future the boys experienced in this trip can take on much more of the logistics with a "remember when?" approach.

In case anyone was wondering how this turned out, we decided to just do basic knot tying for a few minutes--square knot and half hitches. A fire-building lesson with demos of flint & steel, charcloth, and 9v battery + steel wool. Finished with orienteering basics and a compass course.

For a takeaway they all got one of those "survival tools"--the orange whistle/matchholder/compass thingy. Worked out well and the boys were a big hit with the girls, including the older ones, which they didn't seem to mind...

I understand what you're saying. Unfortunately, society being what it is today, sports and school extracurriculars can require attendance in order to participate. So To tell a boy that he must choose between an outing or an evening concert that is required for his grade is not a decision we are going to ask him to make. The consensus seems to be that ad hoc patrols are not a good idea because of the lack of continuity, and I understand. However, the patrol of one seems equally a bad idea and certainly doesn't promote any intra-patrol development and interaction either.

There is a myth a lot of adults hold to that Boy Scouts is the boys program; it is not. Boy Scouts is an adult program designed to develop boys into men who make ethical decisions. What are the expectations of your adults for your troop? That being said, I know how hard it is to change a culture, but the adults have to decide if they are satisfied with the status quo. My son and his wife are both high school teachers in to different high risk schools, but with basically the same student demographic. Ninety Seven percent of last years graduating class of one school went on to college. The other school had far less than 50 percent. When I asked him what was different between the two schools, he said "expectation". Your troop can do better if the adults want it. Barry

One more clarification. The patrols are not put together randomly. The senior patrol leader usually works with the camping group to combine existing controls. So each ad hoc patrol usually consists of members of two regular patrols

Regarding advancement, since the bulk of advancement happens on campouts, boys who cannot attend do not advance as fast and that is visible to the other boys. Regarding the Quality of program, if capping out at a 75% participation rate is not good, I'm not quite sure what we would do. The boys are the ones choosing and planning the outings. I guess we can ask the patrol leaders Council to think about why they don't get higher participation, but I also suspect that they believe the participation is fairly good as it is.

I understand what you're saying. Unfortunately, society being what it is today, sports and school extracurriculars can require attendance in order to participate. So To tell a boy that he must choose between an outing or an evening concert that is required for his grade is not a decision we are going to ask him to make. The consensus seems to be that ad hoc patrols are not a good idea because of the lack of continuity, and I understand. However, the patrol of one seems equally a bad idea and certainly doesn't promote any intra-patrol development and interaction either.

However, scouting cannot be everything to a boy. Boys want to, and my son wants to, be involved in other things as well. I want my son to do those things, and I understand that other boys want to. It is unrealistic to expect 100% participation in scouts year-round for seven years of middle school and high school.