BrentAllen

We do our best to treat membership in our Troop as a privilege, not a right. Have either the PL, SPL or SM let the boys know they have to pull their own weight, if they want to be members of the Troop. They can also let these boys know that if the Scouts can't get it worked out, the adults may have to step in, and it will no longer be the "Boy" Scouts, but the "Adult" Scouts (aka Webelos III), which won't be nearly as fun.

If a Scout only went camping at Summer Camp, I would think he would have a hard time completing 9b to earn the badge.

Beavah,

I'll give you that making apples to apples comparisons is hard. So, it comes down to opinions. Here is one, regarding the difference in pay between auto execs in Japan and the US:

It's difficult to get a precise comparison because Japanese companies are not required to include perks. "It's a very tough comparison to make," says David Cole, chairman of the Center for Automotive Research. The perks given to Japanese executives can include homes, chauffeurs, country club memberships. In the USA, "our disclosure on things like this is pretty complete. The first inclination is to say there's this huge difference, but I don't think that's true."

Here is another fact, from 2005:

Number of Plants in North America

Source: GM & Toyota

GM: 77, all unionized. Plans to close 12 facilities by 2008 (see press release).

Toyota: 12, three unionized in Long Beach, Calif., Fremont, Calif., and Tijuana, Mexico.

Is there a correlation between the number of unionized plants, labor costs and profitability? Looks like it to me.

More pearls of wisdom from our friends at the UAW:

By Bryce G. Hoffman / The Detroit News

WAYNE -- Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.

"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I've just sat."

Pool is one of more than 12,000 American autoworkers who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers and Delphi Corp. as part of an extraordinary job security agreement with the United Auto Workers union.

The jobs bank programs were the price the industry paid in the 1980s to win UAW support for controversial efforts to boost productivity through increased automation and more flexible manufacturing.

As part of its restructuring under bankruptcy, Delphi is actively pressing the union to give up the program.

With Wall Street wondering how automakers can afford to pay thousands of workers to do nothing as their market share withers, the union is likely to hear a similar message from the Big Three when their contracts with the UAW expire in 2007 -- if not sooner.

"It's an albatross around their necks," said Steven Szakaly, an economist with the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor. "It's a huge number of workers doing nothing. That has a very large effect on their future earnings outlook."

*snip*

source: http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm

Beavah,

Those factory improvements would be capital expenditures, not labor costs.

These numbers are from 2005, but I doubt they changed much from then til 2008 - 2009.

Average Labor Cost per U.S. Hourly Worker

Source: GM & Toyota

GM: $73.73

Toyota: $48

And for those cadillac health plans the unions have:

Health Care Costs per Vehicle in 2004

Source: 2005 Harbour Report & A.T. Kearny Inc.

GM: $1,525

Toyota: $201

Why does GM build all those trucks?

Best-Selling Vehicle in U.S.

Source: GM & Toyota

GM: Chevrolet Silverado - 680,768 sold in 2004

Toyota: Toyota Camry - 426,990 sold in 2004

Bottom line:

Profitability per Vehicle

Source: 2005 Harbour Report

GM: Loses $2,331 per vehicle

Toyota:Makes $1,488 per vehicle

Other news from GM:

GM sells just 281 Chevy Volts in February, Nissan only moves 67 Leafs

Wow, color me surprised.

I've had a couple of experiences with unions, though I have never joined one.

First was with the IBEW, as a summer helper. Those guys worked their rear-ends off, made good money, had high standards. A 15 minute break was exactly that, to the minute. You worked a full day, and worked hard. I have a lot of respect for those workers.

Second was with a Parts Pickers Union, at a GE warehouse. Laziest bunch of whiners and cry-babies I have ever been around. They maybe worked 2 hours a day, even though they had orders backed up on the conveyors. They were all in a collusion not to work fast, so the orders were spread over the line - everyone worked slow. They were paid very well, especially considering most of the time they were goofing off or reading the paper. They hated me because where ever the manager put me (summer helper, college student), I worked too hard and too fast, disrupting the mollasses-speed process. They complained about working in a hot house, and one elevated section was referred to as "the oven." Gross over-statements - it was very comfortable in there (with a/c).

A third was when I visited a client's sewing factory near Augusta, GA. The union members were claiming they had to work in a sweat shop. I toured the facility in a business suit and was very comfortable, even cool (a/c). I thought the client was pulling my leg about the complaints, but he was serious. The complaints were absurd.

I hear the constant complaint that union workers are always having to give up something. May be, but the UAW workers just about killed GM. Their labor costs were far higher than the competitors. Their benefits were over the top. When Ford closed a plant here in Atlanta, I knew several line workers who took major pay cuts to find other work - they had been over-paid for their actual skill level. That is my impression of unions - they strongarm companies into overpaying workers for the skills they have. Their leadership is corrupt, they are more political operations than labor shops.

I think acco was being a little tongue in cheek, but maybe not. One of the modules/lessons in WB21C is Conflict Resolutions, but I don't think it would have covered hand and face slapping.

What part of the country are you in? Here in the South, hitting a woman is still pretty much sacrilege. If that happened at our Pack, I could see the guy having to fight his way out of the building.

The worst we ever had, which was before I was involved in the Pack (pre-2004), a boy's car was disqualified at a weigh-in a few days before the race due to illegal axels or wheelbase or something. The parents contacted one of the local Atlanta news stations and gave them their side of the story - the mean Pack leaders wouldn't let their son race his car that he worked so hard on. A reporter and camera man show up at the Derby to do a story, based on the line they were fed by the disgruntled parents. Needless to say, when the rules were explained to the reporter, it turned into a non-story, and the family left the Pack.

Another year later, another cross-over. There were 15 Webelos coming out of two Dens tonight. We started the evening with 41 Scouts in our Troop, and were expecting 8 to join us. We ended up with 11 new Scouts, with the other 4 going 1 each to 4 other neighboring Troops. I really didn't expect to exceed 50 this year - I'm going to have to get used to that number. My guess is some of these will drop, as some are very involved with sports, but our retention rate is still pretty high, right around 90%. I know we have one Scout who moved to Memphis last year who is moving back and rejoining the Troop at the end of the school year, and has already put a deposit down for Summer Camp. That will give us 53. Time to recruit a few more ASMs and build a Scout Hut!

dScouter15,

The main reason most businesses went with AHA was their card was good for 2 years while ARC was good for one. ARC is now good for two years. There is a Statement of Understanding between the ARC and AHA which says they recognize each other's training. You can read it here:

http://www.heart.org/idc/groups/ahaecc-public/@wcm/@ecc/documents/downloadable/ucm_315746.pdf

dScouter15,

Maybe we are talking in different circles, but I am very glad the ARC teamed up with the BSA to offer an affordable WFA Course. I'm glad that Philmont and other High Adventure Bases are requiring Crews to have a member currently certified in the course. How do you feel about that? Do you think the ARC/ BSA WFA courses are a good or bad thing? I know I'm no EMT, but I also know there isn't likely to be an EMT within many hours of us on some of our trips. WFA has helped me better prepare for trips from a health & safety standpoint, and to also be better prepared for any emergencies we may face, knowledge and skills-wise.

I'm curious what "well-deserved criticism" the ARC has earned?

SR540Beaver,

Anyone doing it just for the beads could easily just make their own set or buy them on Ebay, much cheaper.

WB was one of the best experiences in my life. 7 years later I still run into fellow participants and staffers and we talk about the course. Right now I am wearing too many Scout hats, but this is what God has called me to do at this particular time. Without the lessons I learned during that course, there is no way I could keep up with all the work.

Plus, it is a legacy I share with my dad, an Antelope from his course in 1975. Maybe my son (and daughter) will continue the legacy down the road.

I used to be a Fox, and a good ol' Fox too...

rdclements,

I was thinking the same thing. The ARC has been around for 130 years, and is the leader in training lay responders in First Aid. To say certifications expire just to generate revenue is simply ignorant. Anyone who has taught First Aid or CPR/AED to either Scouts, Scouters or in the workplace has seen that people simply don't retain the knowledge or skills indefinitely. Even professionals have to go through continuing education courses or exams to maintain their certification, and last I checked, those weren't free. Instead of poo-pooing the ARC, he should be thankful that they have partnered with the BSA to offer classes such as WFA.

Our Council has partnered up with the local ARC to offer CPR Saturdays at our Council Volunteer Service Center. We will have 250 - 300 participants come through the CPR/AED course this coming Saturday. The ARC has gone to DVDs for most of the training, to offer a standardized program. Instructors are there to spend more time watching the participants do the skills and correcting form than to demonstrate the skill. The test required for passing is also standardized, so to label the training "dubious" is, again, ignorant.

dScouter15,

When my wife broke her knee, the "professionals" in the ambulance that arrived knew less about how to treat her than I did. They literally couldn't figure out how to use tape or an ace bandage to hold a cool pack on her knee during transport. Then they had to follow me to the hospital because they didn't know how to get there - it was less than 5 miles away on a route requiring exactly 2 turns. Were they EMTs or paramedics? I have no idea - they just showed up in the ambulance, in uniform. Point being, we can't tell when you guys show up who is the real McCoy and who is the wanna-be. So, yes, after that experience you may have to push me out of the way to help one of my family members or my Scouts.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Wow, what an honor! Debbie Downer has stopped by to join the discussion!

vol,

Just a couple of points, and I hope they don't come across as rude - though, you know us Southerners. :-)

1. There are many types of diversity other than race. This is explored in the course and the main point is to get new people involved instead of rounding up the same old suspects (the good ol boys club).

2. In the courses I attended and staffed, the worst participant was a PhD, who knew everything. He was the smartest person in the course, in his own mind, and he wanted everyone to know it. He was so focused on proving he was the smartest and winning every contest that he completely missed the point of the excercises, which was usually coming together to work as a team, valuing the input of all team members, finding different ways to solve problems, etc. Since he was obviously the smartest, the rest of his patrol should just follow his lead on everything - no input from them on anything, whether it be a game or cooking or anything. Needless to say, the rest of the patrol grew sick of him pretty quickly. The PhD was so smart, he closed his mind and missed the entire point of the course and alienated everyone in his patrol. In WB, things are not always as they appear, and there is usually a much bigger lesson being taught or discovered under the surface.

To quote Waite Phillips:

"What is really important is what you learn after thinking you know it all."

Wow, I can't believe all the misinformation and ignorance I'm seeing in this thread.

desert,

There are other courses to teach outdoor skills. WB is to teach Scouters how to put together teams to work together, to set goals and achieve them, so your Troop can work with the boys to plan Summer Camp, a trip to Sea Base and a trip to Philmont - all in one summer. WB is to teach you the backroom skills so you CAN deliver a program of adventure to your Scouts. It is a program for adults, not Scouts, teaching you how to work with adults. Looking at many of the threads on this forum, that appears to be a major problem, much more so than any lack of outdoor skills.

If you ever serve at the district level, those WB skills come in very handy. District Scouters are always recruiting and building teams, for either Day Camp or Commissioner Service or other events. Outdoor skills are about as useful as a screen door on a submarine, but team building skills are worth their weight in gold.

During the course I attended in 2004, the only building I set foot in the entire week was the bath house. We never ate in any dining hall or sat in metal chairs. I don't know of any council that puts on more courses per year than ours - we run them spring, summer and fall. The spring and fall courses have waiting lists most of the time. If WB was a waste of time, I don't think we'd be putting people on waiting lists.

I can't believe the Ticket has scared some of you away. Hopefully you are already setting goals each year and putting together teams to achieve them. If not, WB will teach you how, and how to do it more efficiently. The Ticket gives you a mechanism to take what you have learned and put it into use. I saw some areas we really needed to improve in our Pack, and I used those as the basis for my Ticket - lack of training, lack of summer program, poor uniforming, lack of participation in district and council events. The Pack was much different, and much more active, after finishing my Ticket.

I don't know when the Ticket was introduced to WB but I suspect it was in place when the Boy Scouts of America conducted their first course in 1948 - Bill Hillcourt was the first SM. In one of my WB histories, there is mention of a "practical phase" and an "application phase" for the 1929 course at Gilwell. The term Ticket came from the process of British officers working their way back towards home right before they retired. If an officer was in India when he retired, he had to pay for his transportation back to England. During the last few years of an officer's service, he would start working his Ticket, trying to get assignments closer and closer to home, so that upon retirement, he wouldn't have to pay much to get home. I do know the Ticket was part of the course in 1975, when my dad attended.

So BadenP, you take the screen name of Baden-Powell and then have the nerve to call others arrogant for discussing B-P? Now that is rich! And let me get this straight - you worked for the BSA in an entry-level position where your main job was numbers - raising money and starting units - and you know more about WB than someone who has staffed multiple courses? You attended the course and the staff of "mindless wonders" invited you to staff twice - you must have really impressed those "mindless wonders!" I thought you said it was always the good ol' boys staffing, not bringing anyone new in. Did they see you as one of the "mindless wonders, good ol' boys?" As for Mazuca, isn't the BSA adding a fourth national High Adventure Base under his tenure? How many CSE's can claim that happened under their watch?

Wood Badge is real simple - if you love Scouting, chances are you will love Wood Badge. You have to take Kudu with a grain of salt - his heart is in the right place, but I think he has stayed down too long. Hey Kudu, when are you going to invite me to go SCUBA diving? Yes, I'm certified - O/W, Adv, Cavern.

First was a '66 Mustang, 289 w/ factory 4 bbl and 4 in the floor. Red with black interior. Bondo car, but was reported to be the fastest moonshine runner in Greene County. Got it for Christmas when I was 15, in 1978.

2nd - '67 Camaro SS/RS, 350 small block, 2-speed PowerGluide tranny, hideaway headlights.

3rd - '74 Datsun 240Z

It went downhill after that.

Call it whatever you want - fail, put on hold, deferred. I had a Scout in December who had completed all the requirements for Tenderfoot. On the December camping trip, he got into some fisticuffs with another Scout - they've had issues. Scout A told Scout B that if he grabbed him again, he was going to hit him in the face, which he did. At the next meeting, Scout A was scheduled for his Tenderfoot SM conference. We talked about what happened, and I asked him if he felt he was living up to the Scout Oath and Law. To his credit, he said no. He didn't get Tenderfoot at the December COH, but he showed improvement in his behavior at all the meetings and our January outing. We had another quick SM conference to discuss his progress, he had his BOR, and he received his Tenderfoot Tuesday night. So, no, he didn't just participate in a SM conference and go on to his BOR.

Maybe the BSA could come up with a Cheerful Not Award. Yes, that is spelled correctly. I could think of a few nominees.

resqman,

The problem with that Scout started at age 14 when he stopped showing up. If I had a Scout who I only saw occassionaly, I would hold a Scoutmaster conference to find out why he wasn't attending, and also discuss the issue with the parents. If he didn't have a legitimate excuse, and his attendance was as bad as you say, we'd drop him from the rolls at recharter.

I've posted this before, borrowed from Green Bar Bill:

"The real price of membership in this Troop will be unfailing regular attendance at its meetings and outings, and steady progress in all the things that make a Scout "Prepared." If we put our own time into the activities of this Troop, we shall certainly expect you to do your part with equal faithfulness. At Troop 494, Scouting is a way of life, not just an activity."

Our Scouts hear that from day 1. We don't get 100% attendance, but I'm happy with our results, especially considering how many other events our Scouts are involved in. And yes, we record attendance at all meetings and activities. If I get a complaint from a parent about "Timmy didn't get his Tenderfoot when Bobby did" I pull out the attendance records and odds are that Timmy missed meetings and campouts that Bobby attended, where Bobby was able to work on and pass requirements.

As was mentioned earlier, set the bar high if you want a high quality program.

While a Scout back in the mid-to-late 70's, we went on a boating and fishing trip to Lake Westpoint. We had a number of john boats with outboards. Some of the "older" Scouts were allowed to take a boat out with a younger Scout. Two of these boaters decided it was funner to criss-cross jumping each other's wakes than to go fishing. One of the older boys fell out of the back of the boat, and it started turning donuts. The younger Scout in the boat got scared and climbed to the back of the boat, and jumped out. He held on to the stern as he did, which turned him right into the prop. The prop skimmed his stomach and chest (looked like a rug burn) and hit him right in the chin. As you can imagine, it was a gusher. I don't know all the details, as I was on another part of the lake, but my dad somehow ended up with the Scout in our ski boat and got him back to camp, and on to the hospital. They stitched him up (can't remember how many) and the adults brought him back to camp before taking him home, so the rest of the Troop could see he was still alive. We were very fortunate this didn't end up much, much worse.

Stosh,

We had a quarterly parent meeting back in January, where some complaints were raised - all by parents of 6th grade boys. The complaints were that these parents wanted more adult involvement. They wanted an ASM working with each PL to keep things organized and running smoothly. The parents of older Scouts spoke up and said, "If you have an adult micro-managing my son, he is just going to get mad and quit." I thought about this for a long time, and have come to the conclusion if the parents of the new Scouts are complaining they want more adult involvement, it may actually be a compliment. I would see if you can dig down on the complaints, not to find out specifically who made them, but the demographics of those who made them. Are they just from younger Scouts, or from across the spectrum?

As for us, to appease some and improve our program, we have assigned an ASM to each PL to mentor from afar, meaning the ASM will not get involved in patrol meetings directly, but may observe from across the room, and can follow up with the PL afterwards to review. The ASM can and should contact the PL at least once during the week to see how things are going with his patrol, to see if he is making plans for upcoming meetings, what he is doing to help his patrol mates advance. Ask lots of open-ended questions. Mentor and coach.

Flog? That's pretty funny!

The truth is, I haven't ever had to twist any arms to get the ASMs to training. I send the dates of upcoming training classes out to the entire Troop, and the dads would step forward to take the classes. We have 5 fully trained ASMs, and another dad who is still an assistant Cubmaster but has taken most of training. I didn't even know 2 of these adults were taking the training until I saw them at the class.

As I said earlier, this is something I drew up last year - based on what our current ASMs had already completed. I had some new dads ask what was involved in becoming an ASM, so I put this together as an outline. Yep, we run a challenging program, and I expect a lot out of our Scouts and adults. As I tell our prospective parents, you want the best trained doctors for your kids, and you want the best trained teachers, so why should you settle for anything less with your Scout leaders? As a parent, you will be sending your son out into the woods under the guidance of these leaders, some times for up to a week. Do you want those adults to have the bare minimum YP training, or the full compliment? It's your choice.

You set the bar high, you will be surprised how many will rise to meet it. Set the bar low so anyone can meet it, and you'll never separate the cream from the milk. I said it the day we started the Troop and I continue to live by it - we are interested in quality, not quantity. It works for us.

Last year I put down on paper what I expected of our ASMs. I will also point out that I don't expect anything of them that I don't do myself. Here it is:

Being an Assistant Scoutmaster carries a lot of responsibility at Troop 494. The Scouts see you as a leader, just like the Scoutmaster, and expect you to know your stuff. To deliver the high quality program at Troop 494, we need trained, dedicated leaders of high moral standing. These are the expectations we have for our Assistant Scoutmasters:

Follow the Scout Oath and Law at all times

Complete the following training:

Youth Protection, Hazardous Weather, Safe Swim Defense, Safety Afloat

Boy Scout Leader Fast Start, New Leader Essentials, Leader Specific Training

Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills

Serve on the Troop Committee for one year, while supporting Troop meetings and campouts

Become proficient in the Tenderfoot thru First Class skills

Take a real interest in each Scout, get to know them personally

Treat all Scouts the same, including your own son

Maintain CPR/AED Certification

Attend at least of the Troop meetings, campouts, PLC meetings and service projects

Be active in your religious institution

Attend Merit Badge Counselor Training

Attend supplemental training courses, when possible (Wilderness First Aid, Wood Badge, etc)

Assistant Scoutmaster commitments are 1 year in length, from January 1 to December 31. They are renewed annually, upon approval of the Troop Committee and the Scoutmaster.

The success of the Patrol Method hinges on Patrol Spirit, or esprit de corps. Patrol Spirit can't be formed when only half the members are present. It can't be formed when Scouting is treated as a hobby, and the members do not feel they have an obligation to their fellow members to show up. How are we helping Scouts learn to make ethical and moral choices in their life if we are afraid to ask them to live up to their obligations? I see many Troops that set a very low bar for participation out of fear of losing Scouts, and they get very low results. Go figure.

Our Scouts are involved in lots of activities - sports, band, etc. I ask them to find ways to do both. Their baseball game may last two hours, while our monthly camping trip "game" lasts 36 hours. I tell our prospective members that if sports is going to always take precedent over Scouting, or they can't find a way to participate in both events, then this probably isn't the right Troop for them. I borrowed the following from Green Bar Bill for our recruiting material:

"The real price of membership in this Troop will be unfailing regular attendance at its meetings and outings, and steady progress in all the things that make a Scout "Prepared." If we put our own time into the activities of this Troop, we shall certainly expect you to do your part with equal faithfulness. At Troop 494, Scouting is a way of life, not just an activity."

The underlying problem here is there are a lot of Troops that basically ignore the 12th Point of the Scout Law. Leaders in these Troops never discuss religion with their Scouts, never hold worship services on camping trips. Many probably don't recognize or celebrate Scout Sunday. The leaders aren't active in their religious institutions. As Tuoc Syag stated, no one in his Troop ever asked if he believed in God.

I don't see how a Troop can help a Scout learn to make moral and ethical choices in his life while totally ignoring religion.

I don't see how Troop leaders can take a real interest in each Scout while totally ignoring religion.

I don't see how Troop leaders can set an example for their Scouts of living the Oath and Law while totally ignoring religion.

I expect the ASMs in our Troop to be active in their religious institutions.

nld,

The SM said the boys weren't eating anything, didn't eat when they stopped for lunch. Add that to the fact that there was only one wrapper. I doubt there was a trash can at the remote camp site where they stopped at lunch time.