BrentAllen

Seattle,

You will have to take your argument up with Green Bar Bill. When I started this Troop, I followed his advice. This is what he recommended the new SM say to his new group of Scouts at their very first meeting:

"The Troop we organize here must be one of the finest and most active Troops ever started. It must measure up with the best Troops in the Council. Every Scout in it must be right on the job all of the time to be the best kind of a Scout he can. Ours must be a winning team in the great game of Scouting!"

I've since followed the program he outlined to meet those goals. The boys bought into it, and they want to have one of the best Troops in the Council. They know which Troops are very strong, and they want to be included in that group. We had our District Camporee this past weekend. Our boys competed hard and really wanted to win Best Overall Patrol. They didn't achieve that goal, but they brought back plenty of hardware for their efforts. We had a very good turnout for the event, especially considering our 8th graders were down at Disney World for a band event. All but one of our new Scouts attended, and they had a blast - I've been getting emails and phone calls from parents ever since we got back telling me how much fun their sons had, and how they really enjoyed working with their patrols, cooking, setting up camp, etc. The boys make all this happen, not me.

Challenging the boys to do their best really isn't that hard. Setting low bars isn't hard, either. The Scoutmaster's VISION for the Troop sets the tone. If you think this can't be done without a "rigorous program of adult leadership" I suggest you get more experience. We have 4 ASMs for our Troop of 52 Scouts and 6 Patrols. Most trips we have 3 or 4 adults attending. If you think we can push all the boys in this program to be the best by ourselves, well, that is a very revealing comment from you - you have no idea what you are talking about. We are a Patrol Method Troop, beginning to end. We guide and mentor the boys in the PLC and they plan and carry out the program.

I suggest you read more from Green Bar Bill.

...and there are plenty of other folders in the forum if you don't like this one...

So, what are we supposed to discuss in this folder, titled "Uniforms"?

SP,

Turn to page 33 in the current BS HB. You can read the answer to your question there.

Also, for our Honor Patrol competition, Scouts must have their handbook to be considered in uniform.

Kudu,

Thanks for typing out a response I really didn't want to spend time on. If there was ever one statement you made that I 100% agree with (and couldn't say better), it is the following:

"If a Scoutmaster makes a radical Outdoor Patrol Method his ONLY aim, the "Three Aims" will follow."

Character? The character I want to see is the Scout who is cook for his patrol for breakfast dragging himself out of his warm sleeping bag at 6:45 AM in 20 degree weather to do his job for his mates. Or the PL at the Camporee who would rather let his new Scouts participate in the events and have fun than make them sit back and watch so they have a better chance at winning. Or the older Scout who sees a younger boy struggling on a backpacking trip, so he carries some of that Scout's load to help him. Or the boys who don't first go congratulate the Scouts who got tapped out, but instead go give a kind word to those who didn't. Or boys who make mistakes and own up to it rather than either lie about it or try to blame others. The rest of these gifts from our program I will keep to myself.

Beavah,

I knew you wouldn't let me down!

Those other methods - we gave up on them. We are bringing in a bunch of sofas and drink machines so the boys can sit around like couch potatoes and play video games. Adult Association? No need, just letting them go with the Lord of the Flies. Character? Our motto is "Just don't get caught" or "Just don't get caught in our Troop t-shirt." Aims? Who needs them? We are just a camping club, can't you tell?

Sorry, if you want to see how we are delivering the promise of Scouting and achieving the Mission, you are going to have to haul your pot belly down here and talk to the boys individually.

BTW, are you actually affiliated with a unit? If not, when was the last time you were? I never hear you talking about how you are achieving the Aims, so you must be doing a terrible job. (smiley face)

Lisa,

Your solution is not an "either/or" it is an "and." Think about it - those who are already incarcerated have already gone through the public school system. We spent that money, and now we are also incarcerating.

The only way to get to an "either/ or" is to do what Seattle suggests - then you at least save the educational funds.

Please note that I am not agreeing with Seattle - I'm not sure if I understand exactly what he means. I was just making a point about Lisa's choices for spending the money.

Buffalo,

Do the boys ever want to go to Philmont? If so, they better start liking backpacking. :-)

If you have a High Adventure backpacking trip scheduled during the next 12 months, that Crew (up to 12 for Philmont) should be taking shake-down/ training trips, in addition to Troop trips. That would be a good time to invite some newbies to go along.

Start them off easy. Providence Canyon State Park makes for a nice 7 - 10 mile loop, if you camp at the Pioneer sites. We made that trip, breaking camp completely for the backpacking, and returned to the same site for Saturday night. There are some really nice views, the canyons are very cool, and the boys had plenty of time to go exploring. You want that first experience for a new backpacker to be a good one, or they may decide they hate it and never give it another shot.

If Venturing is the model of success for the BSA to go coed, it ain't going to happen anytime soon. Our District had 6 Crews last year, and two of them didn't recharter. Those two had COs that are sponsoring successful Troops. The average membership in the other 4 Crews is around 6. The lifespan of a Crew appears to be pretty short, around 2 - 3 years.

Beavah,

I could talk about the others all day long - it's just not as defined as the others.

Outdoors

Our oldest boys are freshmen in high school, just turning 15. We have 8 of them. Nearly all have been to Summer Camp 4 years, and will go for their 5th camp this year. Most have been to two HA Bases, a 10-day Northern Tier Trek covering 106 miles as 13 year-olds, and down to Sea Base last year. They are heading out to Montana (MOHAB) for a backpacking trip in the Rockies this summer, a couple of hours south of Glacier National Park. They will finally get to go to Philmont in 2012.

Many of these boys will hit 100 nights of camping this year. Most have been to NYLT, or are attending this summer (we have 5 Scouts attending NYLT this summer). All are very active outside of Scouting. SPL Owen runs Crosscountry in the fall, marches in the high school band, swims on the high school and neighborhood swim teams, runs on the high school track team (mile, 2-mile, poll vaults), earned his ARC Lifeguard over Christmas break, and is going on our church youth mission trip to Toronto this summer. High GPA student in the gifted program, taking AP classes. Life Scout. OA member, ceremony team. He is typical of the Scouts we attract.

My son is part of that group, runs XC, marching band, been to NT, SB, NYLT. Along with others in the Troop, he has been on a 4 day/ 3 night canoeing trip in the Okeefenokee Swamp, a 4-d/ 3-n backing trip on Cumberland Island. Going to MOHAB this summer, Philmont next year. 90 nights camping to date. 100 miles hiking, which includes 50 miles of backpacking. Life Scout, OA member, ceremony team.

We have over 50 Scouts - do you want me to tell you about every single one of them?

We have had well over 90% of our Troop attend Summer Camp every year. That is 90% of all our boys, not just the ones some Troops consider "active." We plan, provide and cook our own meals (by patrol) at Summer Camp - the boys' decision. Every patrol has their own gear for regular camping trips, and an additional large cooler and foodbox for Summer Camp. We are usually the only Troop in camp cooking our own meals - that is out of 35 - 40 Troops in camp each week. PLC meetings every month, set up and scheduled by the SPL. The Troop meets every Tuesday, except for the week of July 4 and around Christmas. We don't take one week off for a PLC meeting each month - it is held on a different day. Elections held every 6 months. TLT held every 6 months.

We NEVER form ad hoc patrols. We've had one trip where one first-year Scout was the only one who could make it in his patrol(band conflict, and most of our Scouts are in band), and he went by himself - bought his food, prepared his meals and cleaned up. He had a great time in his own patrol. We never do any Troop cooking or have adults cook any meals for the Scouts. We never plan their meals or buy their food. The patrols do it all themselves. Some patrols are holding meetings outside of Troop meetings, something I am strongly encouraging.

Our annual calendar is planned by the PLC. Our trips run from the Camporee in March, with the new Crossovers, to easy skills-based trips in April and May, on to Summer Camp in June or July, to a river or lake trip in August, to backpacking in the fall (usually on the AT). This gives the new Scouts time to get some skills and acquire backpacking equipment. Winter camping in December, usually caving in January, and a big, advanced trip in February over the holiday weekend.

We don't have any Eagles yet, but have 5 at Life. No FCFY for us - our goal is to get all of our boys to FC by their second December in the Troop, which would be 21 months after crossing over. Many make it before then, but a good number take 18 months or so.

We have a Scribe who takes attendance at every meeting, noting who is in uniform and who isn't for the Honor Patrol competition. We have a Bugler who plays reveille and taps if he can take his trumpet on the trip. We also have a Quartermaster (he has keys to the trailer), Historian, Troop Guides, Instructors, Librarian, Den Chief, Chaplain's Aid, and an OA rep. Three of our 15 year-olds have performed nearly every crossover ceremony in our district as member of the OA ceremony team this year.

We have a very active program and ask a lot of our Scouts. This is the type of Troop I grew up in. I try to scare away those that don't really want to be there. We are now at 52 Scouts, and I have 3 more wanting to visit. Our retention rate is very high. In 3 1/2 years, we have had 5 boys quit Scouting, 1 moved to Memphis (and is moving back, going to Summer Camp with us) and 1 moved to another Troop which fit his schedule better. I never recruit from other Packs, but I've had boys join our Troop from other Packs. We are quickly outgrowing our meeting room and getting too big, too quickly. I used to say I didn't care about size, I only cared about quality. Now I care about size - about getting too big.

We have a full trained committee and 4 fully trained ASMs. We have two 14-passenger church buses that we take on our trips, reducing the number of adults who need to drive and attend.

We don't have a UC; I'm the District Commissioner. What else do you want to know? I'm sure you will find something to nit-pick, so go ahead.

Edited to add 3 of our 15 year-olds have completed Wilderness First Aid, and 4 have earned the Aquatics National Outdoor Award. 8 have earned the Mile Swim badge. 22 are currently ARC CPR/AED certified.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Beavah,

I guess I missed that part of my training where they told us we would only be able to prioritize a few of the methods. IMO, the best Troops make a priority of all the methods to achieve the Mission.

"Even da most well off troop doesn't have the time and resources to prioritize everything."

Sorry, I disagree. The SM who is trying to build the best Troop in his Council knows he needs all parts working to reach his goal. Using your house and tools analogy, the SM knows he needs the best in everything to produce the best product on the market. And maybe that is the rub, not many SMs have that as their goal. They are happy building duplexes or affordable housing. Are they doing their best? I guess only they can answer that.

I guess I was fortunate to grow up in a very strong Troop, and fortunate to get a copy of the 3rd Ed. SMHB and read Green Bar Bill's charge to the new SM before we started our Troop. When I read the text, it just made sense to me and I didn't think there was any other way to build a Troop. Some of the wording is dated, but the message is clear:

"The Troop we organize here must be one of the finest and most active Troops ever started. It must measure up with the best Troops in the Council. Every Scout in it must be right on the job all of the time to be the best kind of a Scout he can. Ours must be a winning team in the great game of Scouting!

...

Here's one more point - the real price of membership in this Troop will be unfailing attendance at its meetings, and steady progress in all the things that make a Scout 'Prepared.' If I put my own time into the activities of this Troop I shall certainly expect you to do your part with equal faithfulness. Is that plain - and fair?"

I wish I had a dime for every Scouter who told me I couldn't build a Troop on that premise, or expect Scouts to wear the uniform. Other "conventional wisdoms" I've heard, and turned out to be false in our Troop - "Scouts won't go to Summer Camp after attending for 3 years." Or "once a boy hits high school, you won't see him much anymore." I guess it all depends on what type house you have in mind when you start building.

Basement,

If you thought I was taking shots at you about income, then I apologize. That was not my intent. My intent was to point out that the JTE was designed to help units build a stronger program, and that the budget was not just a recording of financial numbers. The budget can be used to build a stronger program by pointing out to parents that the Scouts would like to do some things that they can't afford, and that you needed additional fundraisers to accomplish them.

In my mind, the Scouts come up with a wish list and then submit it to the Pack or Troop committee, which is supposed to provide the resources or tell them no, we can't do that. The budget, in this case, can be used as a planning tool and a motivator to get people involved in raising the resources.

From your comments, it appeared to me that you had looked over the forms, decided you had done it all, and that was it. I see JTE as much deeper than that. It is helping me with our Troop because we haven't had a formal budget, and we don't have a big bank account. Our Treasurer is now working on putting together a formal budget, as a result of JTE. We are also talking about conducting some additional fundraisers to build up a little bit of a balance.

It has also helped with training. Our ASMs are all fully trained, but most of the committee was not. We started talking about this in January, and now the entire committee is fully trained - all because I presented this as "The boys are going to do their part to earn Gold - they need your help on some of the items to reach their goal." Out Troop should make Gold fairly easy since we are a young growing, active Troop. I could have just written the rest off and been done with it, but I used it to make some real improvements in our program.

I plead guilty to being from an upper-income area. We have several dads who are CFOs for major companies, CPAs, owners of professional service firms, etc. Many stay-at-home moms. We have resources most Troops don't have. But we also have boys from single parents, boys from struggling homes, etc. We also have to deal with the fact that most of our boys are over-scheduled and have very high expectations placed upon them. I feel having boys from both ends of the financial spectrum is a real blessing, as it is kind of the ideal that B-P originally had - to see if boys from different backgrounds could come together and get along while camping, meeting, working together, etc.

You have to remember that National is trying to come up with a program that fits Packs and Troops from areas as different as yours and mine, and for units in size from 5 Scouts to 100. Units that started last week to units that have been around for nearly 100 years. I believe I heard that the average Troop size in the USA is 14 Scouts. If that is true, then there are a lot of pretty small Troops that need JTE as a guide to building a stronger program.

"...Scouters push uniforming so hard...."

This is what I can't understand - why does uniforming have to be pushed so hard to be successful? A Troop is going to have a uniform culture - it is going to be established and followed. That culture may be full uniform or it may be waist-up or some other derivative. Troops that are full uniform have that culture, and it is followed just as easily as the waist-up culture. I think some here think that full uniform Troops are constantly fighting a battle to keep the boys in uniform - that simply isn't true. It is a culture, an acceptable practice that has become part of the Troop experience, and the boys just do it.

I guess a Troop that has a waist-up culture will find it hard to change that to a full uniform expectation. But if you do make that fight and get it changed, the fight ends. Leaders allow that culture to be set, it doesn't just happen. A new SM coming into an existing Troop has to deal with the existing culture, but he either accepts it or changes it.

Uniforming may be determined in some areas by socio-economic factors, but most of the time it isn't. As an example, here in Dunwoody there are 4 Troops in churches on the same road, all located within 3 miles of each other. These boys go to the same schools, live in the same neighborhoods. Two of the Troops are full uniform, two are hodge-podge, mostly waist-up with jeans, camo cargo shorts, etc. Why is that? This isn't an economic issue. It is the expectations set by the Troop.

Kudu,

If you don't think boys take pride in their baseball uniforms, then you are very mistaken.

Beavah,

Boys like the uniform - did you miss Lisabob's comments about the Switchbacks? It appears many like the shirt, since some Troops wear only that. And what's the deal with all the fat Scouters in your area? Do you not have any gyms?

Beavah,

A good contractor (SM) isn't going to let a poor subcontractor ruin his overall product. Use a bad electrician and poor materials, and even the house with the best plumbing and carpentry will still burn down. Houses are different styles, but in each style there is still high quality and poor quality end results.

You can build the best house in the world, but if it looks like crap on the outside, nobody is going to care about the inside. If we can't teach our Scouts that curb appeal (first impression) is important, then we have failed them.

Scoutfish,

There's no honor in trying to rationalize down the program - anyone can do that. No matter how hard you try, the text is not going to change. The honor is found in trying to meet or exceed the standard.

Beavah, no comment on the restaurant? I think the SM was doing the same thing, which is not being rude, but helpful. And being obedient would mean wearing the uniform of the group you belong to and are representing.

SR540,

I would defer to John Wooden. I think he knew a thing or two about uniforms and putting together high performing teams.

Jeans are the uniform of the car camper. No one serious about the outdoors would wear jeans camping. "I pity the fool" that wears jeans to the Boundary Waters Canoe Area or on a real backpacking trip.

skeptic,

I don't know exactly whay you mean by "governing documents" but the Cub Scout Leader Book is pretty clear:

"Uniform parts should not be worn separately or with civilian clothing. The entire uniform should be worn or not at all. The pack does not have the authority to make changes to the uniform."

Sherm,

You owe that Attaboy to someone else, not me - the description isn't about our Troop - yet.

So Beavah, is that upscale restaurant being rude for offering you a dinner jacket because they require it, and you didn't wear one? This is the same issue here.

As for your hypothetical, you have it all wrong. The election team comes in at the rear of the building, where the SM is (at the back of the room). He speaks to the election team, since the SPL is involved with the program. The SM isn't fat, he just ran a half-marathon this past weekend. His Troop is very fit, as most of the boys run Cross-Country, inspired by their SM. They are completely and correctly uniformed. They have displays all over the walls from all their high adventure trips all over the country, and even outside the country.

These Troops exist. I wish you could see one some time.

Beavah,

You must have been around some pretty sorry units during all those years, since you are always making excuses for them. I guess you never saw a really good Troop, because according to you, if the boys can say the Oath and Law, they must not be living it. If the Troop is fully uniformed, they must be a bunch of parlour Scouts with no outdoor program. Maybe if you saw a really strong, healthy Troop, you would have a different attitude, because believe me, they do exist.

The $64,000 question is why do these units exist, and others can't pull it off. Weak-kneed leaders is my answer. SMs are so afraid of losing boys if they ask them to wear the uniform or show up and participate. I hear it and see it all the time, since I get around to other units as DC and as part of the OA. Every method affects the others, except for advancement. I've seen huge units - 60 - 90 Scouts on paper - that could barely get 3 or 4 Scouts eligible for the OA, due to a lack of nights camping. These same units have a hard time getting half of their Scouts to the meeting to conduct an election. But they produce plenty of Eagles - advancement always seem fine, while the wheels on the rest of the methods are falling off. These Troops look exactly like what Stosh describes. Their motto - we make it very convenient for the boys to be in Scouts while participating in other events. That just tells the boys that Scouting isn't important, that you can always put it at the bottom of the committment list, but hey, you can still make Eagle! Then we get Eagles that end up murdering someone or get arrested for smoking dope right after being awarded Eagle. If the program is going to be run so losely that it ends up making no difference in the life of the Scout, then why bother? Are we here just to help boys get into college by adding Eagle to their applications? No thanks.

Basement,

If you are looking for some magic program to get your parents involved, it ain't going to happen. That's not the point of this program. It is to help units build strong, healthy units, and I think it does a good job of pointing out what it takes to build those.

You say the Pack has succession planning covered, but yet you said earlier that nobody would step up to take your place. That's not succession planning, in my book. Succession planning to me means you have ADLs for all your Dens, so if the DL gets transferred, ill or whatever, you have a specific person there to take their place. Same with CC, CM and ACMs. To simply say everyone moves up at the end of the year is not planning.

As we found out at recharter, many units don't have trained leaders. Many leaders didn't think they needed anything beyond YP, certainly not BALOO or OWL. This program points that out, and rewards the unit for getting those leaders trained.

Many Packs don't have Scouts participate in Day Camp - many don't even know it exists. Many don't have a summer program at all. This program points that out and rewards the units that participate.

You say your unit has a budget, but then also say the Scouts can't afford to do anything. Doesn't sound like much of a budget to me. The budget should include the financial needs to deliver the program, and ways to raise the money. Sell popcorn, spaghetti dinner, wash cars.

I don't see why this is so hard to understand.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Basement,

Weren't you the one who was complaining about the Pack being a one-man show the other week? About how you couldn't get parents to volunteer to help with the Graduation campout? How you were still serving as Cubmaster because no one else would step up? You had the PWD where a parent hit one of your leaders?

And now you say your Pack has all 13 points covered, including succession? How does your Pack run a full week of Day Camp when you can't get volunteers for one camping trip? Something doesn't add up.

Here's another shining example of why we should all love unions. City bus driver shows up for work drunk. Fire him, right? Nope, can't do that, thanks to the union. Headline should be "Union Protects Drunk City Bus Drivers."

Bus driver who showed for work 'impaired' won't be fired

Oak,

Did you conveniently forget about what happened in Maryland earlier this month?

Maryland gay marriage bill dies with no final vote

http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/031211/nat_798287281.shtml

RS,

We do our own cooking at Summer Camp, bring our own food, even though the camp has a nice, big dining hall. They give us a discount on fees. We use dry ice, and it works pretty well even here in Georgia. There are a few lessons we have learned along the way.

1. Have additional equipment used just for Summer Camp - bigger, better cooler in addition to regular cooler, and a bigger food box (plastic) in addition to the one used regularly.

2. For better insulation (ice lasting longer), put large cooler on ground, stack smaller cooler on top, keep out of sun. We had one patrol keep their large cooler on top of the picnic table, and their ice (both dry and water) evaporated/melted much quicker than the other patrols.

3. Scouts need to bring powdered drink mixes instead of bottled drinks - they take up too much room in coolers.

4. The gray cardboard(?) egg containers quickly disintegrate with a little moisture - go with styrofoam.

5. Meals including chicken need to be on the menu earlier in the week rather than later.

6. Keep meats in the freezer at home right up until it is time to load the cooler, with the exception of those items needed for the first two suppers. Make sure Scouts put all other meats in their freezer when they get home from the grocery store, not in the refrigerator.

7. Follow the dry ice instructions - to keep items cold, put dry ice on bottom, covered with a couple of inches of regular ice. The dry ice will turn this into a block of ice. Put items on top of regular ice.

To keep items frozen, put items in cooler on bottom and put dry ice on top, separated by a sheet of cardboard. You may just need one "freeze" cooler for all the patrols, instead of each patrol having their own. Remind everyone to get items needed that evening out of freeze cooler to thaw in time for cooking - very easy to forget - been there, done that, twice.

Dry ice is not cheap - be sure to build the cost into your budget.

8. It is hard to beat a week of patrol cooking for implementing the Patrol Method.