BrentAllen

Jeffery H writes: "We're just glad he came and glad to see him." That is why you don't see full uniform - you don't expect to see it. "They know the expectations of this and we generally do not have any problems." This is why you see full uniform for BORs, because you expect it. Question: If a Scout is coming straight from a school meeting, and has a BOR, is he supposed to be in full uniform? Our Troop wears the official uniform (correct term per BSA, see BS HB) for meetings, and the Activity uniform when outdoors. Our Activity uniform consists of Troop T-shirt and/or BSA Action shirt, Scout pants/shorts and socks. Why? Great materials for the outdoors (quick drying, wicking) Uniform - means all the same (Oak Tree, you fail to mention this is your summations) Easy to go from Activity to official, especially at Summer Camp We look like a Troop

We have both the US and Christian flags in the chapel of our Baptist church. They are on the floor, at the foot of the stairs to the stage. The US flag is on the audience's left, and the Christian flag on the right. We have been asked to carry the flags and lead the choir in, with Onward Christian Soldiers being played. This was at our traditional service early in the morning, which is mostly our more senior members, in coat and tie. I usually attend the contemporary service at 11:00 am, with the Praise (rock) band, in our Worship Center. We don't have the flags in this building, which may just be due to the layout of the stage and pews (more of an amphitheater design). Dress is very casual for this service.

Just as there is the spirit of the law and the letter of the law, I believe there is the spirit of a requirement and the letter of the requirement. I would classify box checkers as only believing in following the letter of the law. It is up to the individual to determine if that is good or bad.

"I am not sure anyone is in favor of summary dismissal," Are you reading the same posts I am? "The Scout must be removed. I will qoute it chapter and verse tonight off the Scouting website." "- The performance wasn't acceptable, yet your SM did not remove the Scout from the POR." "and the performance is below expectations, than you may have to consider removing him from the position." You even said it yourself. So, a Scout is assigned a POR. First month, nothing done, counseled, promises to do better. Second month, same thing. Now, based on the "pass or fire" mentality, the SM has to make that decision - do I continue to work with him, or remove him? The box checkers would say, "He has served two months, and if you remove him from the position, he only needs to serve 4 months in another POR to earn the 6 months requirement," even though he hasn't done anything. So, yes, according to the box checkers, they have to be doing the job right out of the gate. If I had done that with our Historian, we would not have ended up with our results. If it works for you, fine.

Personally, I think the "remove him or pass him" mentality for POR is absurd. How is a Scout ever going to be given a chance to learn in that system? He either does a good job right out of the gate, or gets removed? Where is the oppportunity to learn how to do the job correctly? That's not how we operate, and I don't make decisions based on fear of an appeal. If a Scout (or family member) wanted to appeal or go over my head, I would tell them they obviously don't trust my judgement, and if you don't trust the judgement of the SM, it is time to find another Troop. How can you, as a parent, trust me to take your son on all kinds of trips, in all kinds of weather, from weekend trips to High Adventure, but yet you don't trust me when it comes to a decision about advancement? Time to find another Troop, or start your own. Our current SPL was Historian earlier this year. He started a Troop photo album, but it never went any further. He would ask Scouts to bring pictures to put in them, but got very little response. We discussed his performance, and we agreed that he needed to get the photo album up to date, meaning pictures from each camping trip or outing, or I wouldn't count the position for his POR. He didn't threaten to appeal or argue with me. He decided he had the opportunity to do a great job, and set a standard for those who took the position after him. He brought the album in for our September COH, and it is a work of art! He far exceeded my expectations! If my only two choices were to pass him or remove him, we never would have ended up with a great photo album, and more importantly, a great standard for the position of Historian.

My guess is the age comment was just to point out that the Scout wasn't up against his 18th birthday. He has plenty of time to properly earn the award.

OGE, I'm sure that was some old, dead guy - either Ben Franklin or maybe Theodore Roosevelt. Are you saying the problem is no one is holding our youth to a higher standard? No one is expecting much of them? Hmmmm. This always come back to doing the minimum, to me. Apparently many in the BSA teach it, so why should we expect any more? From our Visitor Packet for Scouts who are considering joining our Troop: Expectations of Members This Troop is committed to being one of the finest and most active Troops ever started. We must measure up with the best Troops in the Council. Every Scout in it must be right on the job all of the time to be the best kind of a Scout he can. Most important is the Scout Oath to which every member subscribes when he joins. Unless you feel sure that you want to live up to this Oath the very best you can, you shouldnt be a Scout. Troop 494 offers boys an environment in which everyone can feel secure both physically and emotionally. Scouts will treat others as they wish to be treated. Name-calling, put-downs, discrimination or any form of physical aggression will not be tolerated. Scouts recognize they have an obligation to the members of their Patrol and Troop. When a Scout is absent, he leaves his Patrol mates short. If a Scout cannot attend a meeting or outing, he should notify his Patrol Leader as soon as possible. Scouts are encouraged to participate in activities outside of Scouting. If a Scout has a long-term conflict, such as during a sports season, he should notify the Scoutmaster. The Scout will be encouraged to attend meetings and campouts when possible, but he will most likely not be able to fulfill the requirements of a Position of Responsibility (POR) during such an absence. Scouts of Troop 494 wear the complete, correct uniform to meetings, and to and from campouts, unless otherwise directed. This includes the Scout shirt, Scout pants/ shorts, Scout belt and Scout socks. Yes sir, yes maam, no sir, no maam, thank you, please will be used by all Scouts and Scouters. The real price of membership in this Troop will be unfailing regular attendance at its meetings, and steady progress in all the things that make a Scout Prepared. If the Troop Leaders put their own time into the activities of this Troop we shall certainly expect you to do your part with equal faithfulness. *********************************************************************** We set a high bar, and we get results.

The more I read and think about this subject, I'm inclined to introduce the idea of the WB ticket to the boys, and see what they think of it. Maybe suggest at least 3 goals, 5 if they can. This would let them define the position a little more from their own perspective, rather than just what might be written in a standard job description.

He was pretty cool under pressure. Thanks for posting. Since this was only on Fox, does that mean this is straight from the Republican Party? Right-wing propaganda? :-)

Rush did the intro, wish I could have been there! http://thecablegame.blogspot.com/2009/11/roger-ailes-honored-at-boy-scouts.html Fox & Friends this morning featured a clip of Fox News chief Roger Ailes receiving the "Scout of the Year" award from the Westchester-Putnam County Boy Scouts, just north of NYC. As we can see, Gretchen Carlson, Brian Kilmeade, Alisyn Camerota, Clayton Morris, and Dave Briggs. The emcee was Bill Hemmer, who Cable Game sources said did a great job, although he was overshadowed onstage by a young Boy Scout, who spoke briefly from the podium and possessed, according to one spy, "perfect comic timing." Indeed, the youngster was so good in his delivery that Kevin Magee, chief of the Fox Business News, called out, "Do you know anything about business news?" And oh--did I mention that there was a mystery guest? None other than Rush Limbaugh, who flew all the way up from Florida, just for the occasion, to pay tribute to Scouting, to Ailes, and to America. Limbaugh reportedly looked positively thin, as well as nicely tanned. Sources tell TCG that among the guests were Fox talent Neil Cavuto, Geraldo Rivera, Andrew Napolitano, Peter Doocy, John Scott, Ellen Ratner, Peter Johnson Jr., Eric Bolling, Jenna Lee, and Liz Claman. In his speech, Ailes quoted St. Thomas More, saying, "You must never abandon the ship because you can't control the waves." That is, yes we are in stormy times, but that's the time for Americans to step up and be counted. To make a difference, by joining the military, helping the Boy Scouts, or otherwise serving the nation. Ailes added, "If suspects are presumed to be innocent, so is your country. America needs protection, too," reminding his audience that this is the country that people want to get in to, not get out of. And so he reminded the journalist-heavy audience, "The press doesn't need to be a lapdog, and it doesn't need to be an attack dog. The press should be a watchdog." Exactly. And he concluded with a larger point about America in the world: "There's a global struggle between good and evil...we must not play for a tie." As a TCG source explained, "The event was pure Roger. It was all about God, Country, Scout's Honor and Duty. That's what he is all about." This happens to be the 99th year of Scouting in America. So next year is the centennial. TCG wonders if the national Boy Scouts will see the wisdom of bringing in both Ailes and Limbaugh, but it's a cinch that next year's Westchester-Putnam event will be quite a sought-after ticket.

The letters come up again: ACP&P, Religious Principles, pg. 45,, item #4: If a boy says he is a member of a religious body, the standards by which he should be evaluated are those of that group. This is why the application for the Eagle Scout Award requests a reference from his religious leader to indicate whether he has lived up to their expectations. Notice it doesn't say "list who the religious leader is" but says the application "requests a reference from his religious leader." I guess this is just more "reading between the lines."

I'm beginning to change my mind on the whole subject. Let's start with changing the Scout Oath. No more "I will do my best;" let's change it to "I will do the minimum." And let's not make it so exclusive. Stick around for a year, and get your Eagle. Hand it out just like all those Last Place trophies that all the kids' sports teams get now. That way we can all go home at the end of the day and feel great.

tjhammer, Interesting graph. I do notice that the "All" total for Maine is just over 50%, but yet they just rejected the issue in a vote of the people. So, is the issue loosing support, or is the graph just not that accurate?

srisom, Are you sure about the OA? My 2008 OA Handbook shows the old handshake as correct, and that is what we teach in our Lodge currently.

Ed, If you want to get down to brass tacks, in order to pass requirement 2, references must be provided and contacted - information must be received from them as evidence. That evidence can come in the form of a letter of recommendation (required in our council, approved by national) or by contact with the council advancement committee. That is the reason behind requirement #2. You don't seem to see that this is a requirement, that it must happen before the EBOR can take place. Those references are supposed to be heard from, and their information provided to the EBOR so the board can determine if the candidate has passed requirement #2. If the letters are not received, the cac contacts the references, records the information given, and provides the info the EBOR. The EBOR needs that information to proceed. Why would references be requested, along with all of their contact information?

Ed, I just did show you. Step 7 "...and references will be returned from the council service center to the chairman of the Eagle board of review SO THAT A BOARD OF REVIEW MAY BE SCHEDULED." I would also direct you to the flow chart in the AAC Life to Eagle Guidebook. Eagle Scout Board of Review Unit contacts District to Arrange Board of Review -> Letters of Reference Have Been Received -> Board of Review Conducted -> Application Submitted to Council.

CNY, Sorry to hear about the lack of communication in your district. At the council level, we have an "Atlanta Area Council Life to Eagle Guidebook" for Scouts, Adult Leaders and parents (found here: http://www.doubleknot.com/openrosters/DocDownload.asp?orgkey=1456&id=14281)(you might want to look at the flow chart on the last page of that document). It can also be picked up for free at the Volunteer Service Center. It is 32 pages long, 8 1/2 x 11, very informative. At the district level, we usually conduct at least one Life to Eagle Seminar at Roundtable each year. We see the largest crowd all year at this Roundtable. I believe a similar program is also offered at Summer Camp by council. Our Troops aren't required to have them, but most have several Life to Eagle Counselors. We have a PowerPoint presentation of the Life to Eagle program on our district web page, found here: http://hightowertrailbsa.com/program.html You might want to look at slide 54. Hope this helps.

BadenP, You can't even copy and paste correctly, much less lecture on correct BSA program. If you ever become relevant to the program again (assuming you ever were), check back with us.

packsaddle, packsaddle, packsaddle, Please see my post to TCD. The council must make direct contact IF the letters aren't received. Who do you think in the council is going to be making direct contact with all those references? Volunteers? Paid staff? Instead of dumping this on council, the candidate should "do his best" to make sure the letters arrive. Are you going to volunteer to make all those direct contacts? Let me know how that works out for you. Ed, Ed, Ed,... Please refer to the ACP&P. You will see all this information about the reference letters appears in Step 6, including the directive that "council must make direct contact..." Directions for the BOR are in Steps 8 & 9. I probably don't need to point out that Step 6 comes before Step 8 & 9. You will also note that in Step 7, "...and references will be returned from the council service center to the chairman of the Eagle board of review SO THAT A BOARD OF REVIEW MAY BE SCHEDULED. That looks pretty straightforward to me. The chairman isn't going to schedule a BOR until he has them.

TCD, You are right, it isn't fair to "dump it on the Scout." Instead, let's dump it on the council, who will dump it on the volunteers. Do I see your hand going up to volunteer to go spend 8 hours a month calling references, just so we don't have to "dump it on the Scout?" Or maybe we should have the councils spend their precious resources hiring callers to do this, so we don't have to "dump it on the Scout." I know that is what I would like to see. BTW, how much of your $10 dues goes to council? Or dump it on district. This weekend I only spent 10 hours volunteering on Saturday to teach a WFA course for council, and then 1 1/2 hours conducting an EBOR on Sunday. I have plenty of time! And we would much rather burn out our volunteers than "dump it on the Scout." He's only going to be an Eagle Scout; I'm sure he can't handle the stress.

packsaddle, packsaddle, packsaddle... First the references are listed on the Eagle application, along with complete contact information. Unless the application is lost, the council will have the contact information for the references. Have you looked at the Eagle application in the last decade? http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/512-728_web.pdf If the letters are lost, those people can be contacted again. If you read the full text regarding the references, you will see (as John posted and highlighted), the council MUST make direct contact with those references. He cannot have his EBOR denied or postponed JUST because the letters didn't arrive, but this still does not remove the requirement that the council must have direct contact with the references. If the letters don't arrive, the council MUST make direct contact. Are we clear?

The reading and comprehension skills here are pretty depressing. Ed wrote: "...and a scout can NOT be denied a BOR because his references have not been contacted." I responded with the sentence you quoted. There is a big difference between the letters not being received and the references not being contacted. The council MUST contact the references. This can be done by letter, email, phone, fax - whatever method the COUNCIL chooses. If the candidate does not get the letters in, he will have to wait until the council gets around to contacting the references listed on the application. OGE, We are hopefully teaching our Scouts to do their best. Minimum: provide 5 references Doing his best: make sure the references know they need to write a letter and are willing to do so, provide a stamped, addressed envelope, provide them with some background on the Oath and Law so they can write their letter in that context, give a "due date," follow up to see if the letter was sent.

I can't understand it, either. Are we teaching the youth to find the absolute minimum way through the program, and to just play legal games? The BSA has decided that one of the best ways for a Scout to demonstrate he is living the Oath and Law outside of Scouting is through these reference letters. I have been asked to write them before, and I consider it an honor and a privilege. That usually means I'm also getting an invitation to the ECOH! :-) In the scheme of things, this should be one of the easiest requirements to complete.

A BOR can be denied or postponed if the references haven't been contacted. Read that last sentence in John's post again. The council MUST make direct contact with the references. The board can't be held until they do. It is in the candidate's best interest to get his references to send in the letters.

A couple of thoughts. Scouting is still a mainly middle-class, white program. There are plenty of ways for the BSA to become more diverse without getting into the 3 G's. I don't see what "don't ask, don't tell" in the military has to do with the constitutional right of freedom of association. As for gay marriage, it has been shot down by the people in the most liberal of states. Where the people have been given a vote, it has been rejected. The states that enacted it did so thru judicial acts or the legislature. 30 states have constitutional amendments against it. I hardly see that as a case for change. Girl Scouts have their program. Why would they want an all-girl Boy Scout Troop? What would they be able to do in the Boy Scouts that they can't do in Girl Scouts? As long as the majority of COs are religious organizations, and the Oath and the Law don't change, I don't see much reason to remove God from the program. I personally believe that changing policy regarding any of the 3 G's will cost more in membership than the program will gain.