83Eagle

>> Sometimes they are not the best behaved boys around their parents (imagine that!).

Yeah, he has been known to come down with a case of bigshot-itis from time to time...

So what do you think about recognizing "leaders' sons" at the end of the year or some meeting? Ya know, "it may seem like this is all creamed corn, but it can be hard being a leaders' son." Too self-aggrandizing?

ScoutNut, I understand and agree in principle, but at some point it's time to cut the apron strings and the helicopter to fly away. Scouts going into second year webelos....I do not think we need one to one.

Here's my counterpoint also. ALL the scout complaints about being too hot, too tired, "I don't wanna," came from the boys who left early with parents. In contrast, two boys who were there by themselves, first year Webelos, who normally are not real independent never complained about anything. They were also two of the ones most enthused about coming back to camp next year.

And the saga continues...one of the parents who left early noticed that, in our photo album of the event, the boys were getting plastic "gold" coins from a treasure chest on the last day...a diversion the camp counselors were doing with them so the adults could finish cleaning up and packing out. I got an email asking if I had gotten a gold coin for their scout. Ummm...seriously?

I can't wait to see what happens when they realize he is not getting the special OA award as well...and yes I went through all the requirements before they left...

Despite having a "suboptimal" experience with some of the tag-along dads to Cub Camp (as opposed to the dads who really wanted to be there and spend time with their sons), we had a great experience so far. We've done two camps thus far with one more yet to go.

There isn't really a single experience that stands out, but what I have realized that camp is a tremendous relationship-building opportunity for boys AND adults. My DLs who went to camp are back energized and enthused and looking for ways to add run-ons and other fun stuff into our Pack meetings. Plus I've gotten new ideas for games and activities.

For the boys, all you have to do is say "you want to go back to camp?" to learn the answer to this question...

...that and listen to them sing camp songs for days on end once they get back home!!!

To be specific, it was for full participation in an OA-sponsored service award. To earn the award individually, the boys have to fully participate in all camp activities, including going to chapel on the last evening.

So, five boys missed the chapel service, five boys didn't get the individual award. The participation ribbon was for 100% Pack participation in the award program among those attending, so it's fair that we didn't get it.(This message has been edited by 83eagle)

I know this is a thread about Boy Scouts, but even with Cubs this is a problem.

Just got back from district cub camp--only three nights, four days. We had 13 boys, and 11 dads attend. This was a much higher % of dads than I expected, and I told them all along that they did NOT need to attend if they did not want to as long as we had the required youth:adult ratio, which I knew would not be a problem. I clearly said this because I know there are parents who are the come late/leave early/never help variety.

Well, before camp, two dads told me they needed to leave a day early. I wondered why spend $$$ to go to camp and not stay there the whole time, but what can I do. Then, three hours into the FIRST AFTERNOON I had one scout and his dad go home because the boy was so homesick he was hysterics--yes, even with his dad there. On the third day the scheduled departees left after lunch. Then I saw two other dads packing up and they told me they were going to leave in the evening to avoid the rush/beat the rain/fill in your reason.

Those four were NOT cases where the SCOUTS wanted to leave. These were cases where dads had clearly decided that THEY had had enough of camp and wanted to bug out.

Now on the plus side, we had our best last-day program, because the dads who were left were those who really did want to be there.

But on the negative side, our Pack did not receive the participation ribbon that other Packs got because of our early departees. So we weren't recognized--and the remaining boys knew it, and knew why.

This is the first year something like this has happened and, ironically, came in a year of strong participation in camp. What I think happened is that in years past, we had the families who were really interested in camp ask about it, and we began participating more in district camp programs. Then, as the boys came back from camp and said how much fun they had, other boys wanted to go, but Helicopter Dad didn't want to let junior go off on his own so decided he had to come.

Next year I'm going to have to address this...somehow. It was really ridiculous to see our Pack table in the dining hall dwindle!

As always, it's not the KIDS who cause the most problems, it's the PARENTS.

Create a "cookout and campfire" program that replicates an afternoon of camping except for the sleeping in a tent thing. I found that's where most families that don't come get stuck because they don't have the gear and neither does the pack.

See how that goes and build from there.

Or, if there is a lot of interest in the cookout, make a second announcemnt saying that some people expressed an interest in staying overnight, how much interest is there, etc. So you can evolve the event.

Another side to this is that after many events, I reflect and think, gee it would have been nice to just enjoy the event and for my son and I to spend time together like the other dads got to without being the organizer and go-to guy for every problem.

So, I have gotten better at delegating.

On the flip side, my son attends many more events, and I think gets much more out of scouting itself, because I am a leader.

It's funny that some parents will scoff when the "leaders kid" gets a bunch of awards assuming he got pencil whipped, when the reality is that it is because the boy simply does more.

Too many families not in Facebook so we use scoutlander.

However scoutlanders photo albums are difficult to use so we use picasa which is super easy.

ScoutNut, what do you think and why?

The difference between CS and BS is important to note; however, as a Cub Scout you still have to DO Your Best.

Your Pack should be thankful that you are at least asking these questions and addressing this issue. In our Pack's case we had a WDL who simply signed off on requirements for some unknown reason--who knows, maybe they talked about an activity in a den meeting, or they thought about talking about it, but they certainly never did the activities, nor did the boys do them on their own.

This became readily apparent at Webelos resident camp when a boy who could not only not swim a single stroke but refused to even go in the water showed up with a handbook with EVERY activity for Aquanaut signed off on by his WDL!!!

Fortunately the WDL has left the pack, but in the interim we are cleaning up the mess left behind, as well as dealing with parents who are now coming to realize that their boys didn't do diddly in the program for the last year.

My short answer is that webelos pins are designed for a lot of independent work. To have a den set out with the goal of collectively earning all 20 is therefore something I would not do but that is the dens choice.

At the Webelos level parents can no longer sign off on accomplishments for the most part so the scout will have to show or demonstrate to the leader.

Of course, if the den leader simply pencil whips the requirements as ours did...but that's another matter altogether.

So expect all the same from all the boys. The parents have not requested any accommodation. Until they do you do nothing different, which means the boy may not earn his pins with the den if he won't jump in the water, etc.

The motto is do your best, but you still have to DO.

I would ask the boys and parents what they want to do. If they want to split and you get a leader, problem solved. If not, consider two patrols in the den to do break off sessions and keep things manageable. The second option works very well for us, despite detractors here who will say it is not allowed, and we've done it since Bear year.

Fact of the matter is, most good scouters will be described by someone else as a "control freak". Taking charge is as much a sign of someone who cares and is willing to take ownership of hard tasks as anything else. Yeh need people like that to make things run.

I'm going to take this and engrave it into granite somewhere...Excellent point...

Seems completely ridiculous, and the generator too. But if the camp doesn't have rules or reenforce them there's nothing you can do but complain or find another camp. At our recent camp I had a parent of a cub with a radio and I told them they couldn't use it. Got a funny look but I had the rules to back me up and I'm sticking to it.

We're at camp to camp, not to recreate city life in canvas. If you need it due to age or disability otherwise, fine, otherwise NO!

I should mention that this is a Webelos only camp this year, but the same program is gone through at the all-age cub camp.

The OA members did a nice job staying in character. Their trip across the water in the canoe while we sang was very impressive.

But, no matter how many times the boys have seen or done performances, nothing really prepares them for a loincloth wearing trio of teenage boys with headdresses, nose to nose, no matter how much you explain beforehand. I had a similar experience with camp last year but this year was worse, perhaps because it was not as dark. Most boys were smiling and the camp counselors had to fan out to keep the most giggly in line.

I think the meaning of the ceremony is totally lost on the boys and it would be much more meaningful for them to be called by name and recognized for what the award represents. But as I said I am not OA so I am speaking from an uninformed position, just looking for opinions.

I am not an OA member so forgive me if I get any terminology wrong here.

Our council OA lodge sponsors a summer camp award. It is available to both Cub Scouts and adults (leaders and parents) and I assume it is available for Boy Scouts as well. It can only be earned at summer camp through full participation in camp programming/activities, along with completing voluntary service at camp and attending chapel services.

The camp makes a big deal about these awards and typically all the Cub Scout Packs will complete the award, if for no other reason than so their boys will not feel left out at the final campfire when the awards are presented. (So there is a bit of pressure to go through the program and buy the patches to be presented.)

My concern is in how the awards are presented. As a Boy Scout myself I understand the significance of the OA and the inclusion of Native American symbolism into ceremonies (and into the Scouting program in general). Therefore, I take the time to try to explain to the boys what the OA is all about, and how the award will be presented. Also, the camp director explains the service award and what it means.

However, nothing can really prepare the boys for how the award is presented. Typically a few "braves" and a "chief" come out of the woods, or across the lake in a canoe, in a solemn ceremony.

Now, the ceremonies have always been well done; however...boys ages 8-11 really don't "get it." From the boys' perspective, suddenly they see their counselors (OA members), who they had been working with for several days, now dressed in loincloths and with native American headgear. And the ceremony typically involves staring in to the boys' eyes, or something to that effect, as a final "look into their character."

Well, as I said, the Cubs just don't get it. And some of them have a hard time containing their laughter at a group of nearly-naked older boys "acting like Indians" in front of them and nose-to-nose. Sorry for the terminology, but that's really how it seems to me, and based on the feedback I've gotten from parents.

I think these awards are worthwhile for the service and spiritual aspects they entail, but I think the presentation needs to be rethought, or at least the boys better prepared.

Am I all wet? If not, is this worth mentioning? And if so, to whom?

This wouldn't be the first time that the age guidelines did not jibe with some of the other guidelines.

Regarding the "certification form," that's the first I've seen of that particular document.

My thinking that it was limited to Bears and above is the fact that the Bear book is the first one that mentions it. (Then again, the Webelos handbook doesn't mention it either.)

Looks like a gray area to me.

Hmmmm...with a 2011 publication date no less...

The mystery deepens...

Never mind, answered my own question. While not a rule per se age appropriate GUIDELINES say Wolves on up.

I had it in my head that the Whittling Chip could only be earned by Bear or above. However I can't find that in "da rulez" and I may have come up with that idea because the Bear Book is the first one that mentions it as an activity.

Is there no rank minimum for the Whittling Chip? (Tigers on up are eligibile)

If there are doubts about the veracity of the verbal report, how would memorializing it on a piece of paper change that? It's not an Eagle application, it's a Cub Scout belt loop or pin that doesn't even have any effect on Cub Scout advancement.

Holy crap! And we wonder why people are afraid to ask questions here.

Perhaps, Blancmange, Renax127 simply did not understand that supporting documentation is not required. There's really no need for the haughty reply.

Same here.

Basement, it's a bit OT but to respond to your point, when I recruit I tell the parents that if your son is in cub scouts, you are in cub scouts and you are here because you like doing things with and spending time with your son. I tell them that, not to sound negative, but if they want to drop their son off for an hour and show up once in a while just to watch him do stuff, they should really try little league because they will not be happy with cub scouts--their son will be thrilled, but they will be unhappy.

It seems to help.

Back OT, after thinking about Lion...I still don't know. It would make sense from a recruitment standpoint because we have to send flyers to all the families, and this way we're not turning anyone away. But, first grade boys are squirrely enough as it is.