83Eagle

I had a feeling that would get spun off...I regret ever bringing it up...

Speaking about Cub Scouts, all I can tell you is what I get from the BSA itself:

"Wearing uniforms has been a method of the Scouting movement from the beginning. Decades of experience show uniforming to have many benefits, including these:

■Equality. The uniform represents a democratic ideal of equality. Boys from various cultures and different economic levels wear the same uniform and cooperate as equals.

■Identification. The uniform identifies a boy as a member of the Cub Scouts. Badges on the uniform tell other members that he belongs to their den, pack, and council. The uniform itself identifies a good citizen to the entire community.

■Achievement. The uniform displays badges and other awards so the accomplishments of each Cub Scout can be immediately recognized.

■Commitment. Wearing a uniform is a constant reminder to each Cub Scout of his commitment to the ideals and purposes of Cub Scouting: duty to God, loyalty to country, and helpfulness to others.

For these reasons, among others, all parents should emphasize to their Scouts the importance of wearing the correct and complete uniform on all suitable occasions."

Listen everyone, I fear I may have conveyed an impression that I am standing in front of the room with a whip and a maginifying glass while the little brown shirts march past me under the light of a single bare bulb.

In reality everyone who shows up with his blue shirt for an announced-in-advance "inspection" gets a patch, and everyone does have a uniform because either the parents buy one retail or from our cub closet for a few bucks, or because we provide the scout one. I don't think that's too egregious and it follows the BSA literature but that's just me.

The question actually originated from a parent complaint (which I don't need to get into), and the rest are thoughts bobbing around in my head based on that and trying to reconcile BSA terminology like "should" "important" and, yes, even the dreaded "regulations" (see http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/Parents/Awards/Parents.aspx) with what is right, proper, and practical.

But based on this forum beatdown, it's probably better to let thoughts thoughts percolate longer in my head before spilling them into print.

Send a few boys home who don't have their uniform on, I bet in a couple of weeks your Pack will get smaller and smaller and smaller..........

And I said this...where??? I specifically stressed the opposite in my response above. Please do me the courtesy of reading what I actually write, and not assigning statements to me that I did not say.

I am experienced (not as much as some here) and trained (not as much as some here) but I do not claim to know it all. Which is why I ask questions. I also know that the BSA emphasizes the importance of uniforms and, in fact, uses the same sports analogy I mentioned.

Maybe the word "consequences" was poorly chosen. Go back to my original question: "If you show up without your CS uniform, you...???" And the answers to that are as varied as the number of people posting.(This message has been edited by 83eagle)

Good ideas on the various reward systems. I do like the ticket idea for every "part" you have.

Yes, I get that the uniform is not the be-all-end-all of scouting. That is not why I asked this question. But the fact is that Cub Scouting does have a uniform along with its own officical BSA "Cub Scout Uniform Inspection Sheet," form number 34282. Our parents are told to buy one (and I hardly think our Pack is unique in that regard). So clearly "we" are saying "this is important." And if it's important, the natural question follows of whether it should have a consequence if it is not followed? If there is no consequence, does that make it unimportant? Why have the standard if it does not matter if it is followed?

These are simply the questions I was thinking of and why I asked for a poll of what other Packs do in this open forum. There seems to be a number that do uniform inspections, and who present rewards for good uniforming. This is useful information for me.

In my mind, the sports uniforming analogy works well because most kids play, and yes kids do NOT play if they do not have their proper gear. However, you will note that I NEVER was suggesting to do the same in Cub Scouts--only to use it as an analogy that kids understand. Unlike in sports where you need to tell the red and green team apart, in Cub Scouts the uniform is another (not the only) way to build a sense of team and belonging.

As to folks like basement and Baden...there's a nice way to answer questions and then there's the snarky and sarcastic way that you choose so often. You could stand to look in a mirror once in a while using your own "advice" as a guide.(This message has been edited by 83eagle)

I guess we are already doing occasional rewards for proper uniforming. If you have your uniform on for the announced inspection, you earn the patch. You're right that a consequence doesn't have to be a punishment, just the lack of a reward.

We maintain a cub closet that is regularly stocked with donations as scouts grow up. Between that and regular retail purchases, all our scouts have uniforms. So a lack of uniforms is not the issue.

The issue is that Billy and Johnny both have uniforms, because they wear them to a meeting.

At the next meeting Billy does not have his uniform on because "It's dirty." Mom says, "sorry we didn't get around to doing laundry."

At the following meeting Billy does not have his uniform on because "I can't find it." Mom says, "yes, Billy's room is a real mess."

At the following meeting Billy does not have his uniform on because "I forgot." Mom says, "sorry we were running late."

Now at this point, Johnny's mom is wondering why she went to the scout shop and plunked down $100 on a uniform if you can just be part of things without one.

We do have uniform inspections, with ample advance notice, where we award "red vest" patches. But at what point do you issue a consequence that is more than just the lack of a reward?

Again, back to the sports scenario. Billy shows up without his jersey, he doesn't play. Period.

What would you all do?

Do those come in the spaghetti-strap version like the model is wearing?

Fiskars and Great Neck both make hand drills. Cheap at about $10 apiece. Look in your local craft store or online. I would consider these very light duty drills but adequate for what the cubbies will build and easy to use.

I do have an antique hand drill that I picked up, but to be honest it looks more dangerous than your average power tool.

We've also let the boys use battery powered cordless drills with adult supervision. [i'm going to duck now...](This message has been edited by 83eagle)

I am putting this in the CS forum because I want CS-specific replies.

We talk to the boys about the uniform and relate it to sports, which everyone understands. Teams have uniforms, we're a team, be proud of it, etc. They get that.

They also know that if you're on a sports team and you show up without your jersey, you don't play. That's just a given. But at any given scout meeting, there's usually a boy or two who for whatever reason isn't wearing the uniform that he has.

But, if you show up without your CS uniform, you...???

What are the practices out there?

Every time I log onto this site, the first ad that shows up on the right hand banner is from "Bad Idea" T-shirts. The model in it is...well if you get the same ad you know what I mean.

It's just funny that this ad shows up on this site. Unless this is the demographic being targeted?

Our Tiger den is also 2 scouts this year. I ran the first Tiger meeting and from now on the parents will handle it.

I guess my strategy was to deemphasize the den meetings and stress the Pack experience. Before someone jumps all over me, let me say that I didn't say the den meetings weren't important, but I emphasized the pack events and outings, for which there is a full calendar. I felt the key was to sell the den meetings as a fun get-together once a month plus one outing "just for your den," with the Pack meetings being the special event where we all get together for more fun and you guys get the awards and patches you earned.

I will be mentoring this den, obviously, and I also have the Wolf den leader willing to take the group under their wing for an event or two.

It CAN work and, also important, the word will spread and you will pick up more boys in the coming years.

For what it's worth:

Marshmallow shooter: made with PVC piping. Relatively cheap, just complex enough requiring a variety of hand tools, and lots of fun. Definitely do this one.

Paracord bracelet: made with paracord (obviously) and plastic clasps that you can buy. You can also do a button or tie closure. This craft was a HUGE hit because these are so popular right now. The added bonus is the knots in the bracelet are essentially square knots, over and over.

"Mexican lantern." Found this one in an old Baloo's Bugle and it looked good. Would not do it again. It's not complicated enough (just punch holes in a tin can) and it does not work well, unless we did it wrong. Essentially you end up with a very hot, very dim, little lantern. Did you ever do the cooking gimmick where you cook a pancake on top of a coffee can? That's what this is, with a smaller can.

The fourth "non-woodden" craft is still in the research stage.

Incidentally, for the wooden crafts, one of the things made was a rubber band shooter. Pistol grip handle, doweling barrel, clothespin release mechanism. Then you make a shooting target range--wood base, doweling supports, a clothes hanger wire spanning across, and clothespins suspended with little targets. Not sure if that violates G2SS somewhere but it sure is cool.

Scoutfish, he wants to join the troop and I have no reservations in terms of his maturity to do so. But, he is still a little torn about it which is understandable. He's not being pushed and it's good that he's thinking it through.

The den chief idea came up but that hasn't been presented to anyone at the troop. Before I opined on the subject myself I just thought I would get some input.

You'll note I didn't say whose idea it was...

The responses so far are kinda what I figured, but there's no rule in the Big Book O' Scouting as far as I've found, so I need an answer based on the experience of those more experienced than I...thanks.

There's a fourth grade Webelos in our Pack who has an older brother in a Boy Scout troop. The 4th grader has long been excited about moving up. He will easily earn his AOL this year and, with an earlier birthday, he will be older than 10 1/2 next spring.

So, he's considering joining the troop by summer 2012. On the other hand he's a bit reluctant to leave his buddies behind, if only for a year until they catch up.

What are thoughts on having him be a den chief for the 5th grade den next year?

There are no rules, only guidelines and good ideas.

How old are the boys? That makes a huge difference. You might also have success with one big den for some activities, but then utilize two patrols...er, sorry, "named dens," for small group activities. Have them pick a name based on the patrol patches...er, sorry, "den emblems" you can buy at the scout shop and sew them on the right sleeve.

That's a lot of different questions...

The Tiger Den does have a leader and is chartered as such--there's a uniform sleeve patch, etc. The Tiger Den leader should also complete the required position-specific training either online or with the pack trainer, and can earn the TDL training knot for the uniform as well.

BUT, every adult partner is expected to "lead" the den by organizing activities, etc., with his/her scout.

Therefore, the duties of the Tiger leader should be much more of a coordinator than a leader.

As to the beginning of the season, what I typically do is ask for a leader (sometimes you get someone who does understand the program, former scouter, etc.), but also have the first Tiger Den meeting set up where the boys have fun and the parents see how easy it is. Well, not easy, "nonthreatening." We have a sign up sheet for the order in which people will take on activities from the book.

I then ask for a "coordinator"--someone to help the group find a meeting time and location that works, to be a point person for the den at Pack meetings, and to report advancement to our advancement coordinator. I also ask that one or more parents from the Tiger den be at leader/parent roundtables so that the Den knows what's going on with upcoming Pack stuff.

Within a few weeks it becomes clear if the "coordinator" or someone else is up to the task of leader and by the Blue and Gold they're typically on the charter as such and in uniform.

As to tour permits, typically the Tigers don't do anything out of area so we don't file them. [Ducking to avoid rocks being thrown...]

It beats the usual rants!

My instruction for kids is WHEN your marshmallow catches on fire...not IF but WHEN...do not frantically wave your stick around trying to put out the fire...

I am not being critical of either the GSUSA or BSA programs, but when you have a girl go through scouts first, then you have a son go through, it seems a bit odd. Going to sound sexist here but the boys are the ones who are made of snips and snails and puppy dog tails.

As always a lot comes down to local leadership. My daughter has been doing the equivalent of den camping (because as you know girl scouts do not operate as a multi age troop for the most part) since her first year because my wife was the leader and a lot of the moms liked to camp...and threre is no prohibition against it with the right training and ratio of adults to girls. Obviously not all troops are like that.

So when my son joined a pack that did not camp, and I found that as a DL we could not camp as a den even though we wanted to, it was surprising and frustrating. My solution was to get BALOO trained and organize a pack camp, but I have always felt that the camping encouragement and structure is not there to the extent it is with girl scouts.

Sorry, that's OT, but the issue came up here.

1:1 is not required in our district. It may just be your district.

But yes, DD has been going to resident girl scout camp by herself since she was in first grade. And her troop, which is essentially a den, has been troop camping since kindergarten. I always wonder why cubs are allowed so much less independence by comparison but that's the way the G2SS reads i guess...

The OT dealt with the expanding leagal definition of hazing and I have no comment on that. My comments only relate to the cavalier attitude on the expanded issues that came up.

We have two resident camps, one for all cubs and one just for webs. Each are $115 a person, scout or adult, and both are very popular.

Did you have a question?

This discussion is not "diluted to the point if being irrational." humiliation by definition is based on how someone feels and is therefore completely dependent on the person being humiliated.

The victim, not the perpetrators, are the judge of that.

Beavah talks about balance, but you cannot know the right balance if you do not know the person, and the whole issue of knowing the person was NEVER a part of this discussion, which started with what defines hazing in a legal sense, and which made blanket statements about singing and other things.

So if you are only concerned with a legal definition, ya, just keep doing what yeh be doing, en so? But if yeh really care about da boys you might want to consider a little broader definition.

Got a boy with asbergers...you wouldn't know it if you didn't know him well. If he is new to a troop...

Stage-shy is an understatement. If he were forced to sing it would be devastating to him. You people who think this is no big deal need to get your head out of the sand or whatever dark place you have it in.

Hazing can have a lifelong impact.

Beavah I believe you are totally missing the mark here. This isn't about character building or team building or even toughening somebody up. OGE's experience, as I read it, is about singling somebody out for a particular prank, and laughing not WITH him, but AT him.

If that were to happen to OGE today I suspect his response would be quite different. But as a boy it is also quite different.

I was the first kid in my class to reach 100 pounds. I endured hazing as a youth because of my weight even though looking back I was not fat by any means. Yet I was always the "fat kid" and, as one quick to get emotional about things...well, let's just say it did not go well. More than 30 years later I still see the "fat kid" in the mirror even though I am 6' tall and 165 pounds.

Get the point? What constitutes hazing is defined by the victim of hazing. This is not super-sensitivity or "getting offended" about different things people do as a natural course to their lives. Hazing arises out of actions on the part of the perpertrator that are NOT necessary for the social interactions in which they occur.

There may be cases where you know the subject of a prank or hazing will be a good sport about it. But unless and until you know that, it is best to avoid it and for adults to prohibit it.