83Eagle

I am taking over as CM for a pack that has a committee in name only. We have just the minimal number of committee members to keep us chartered.

I know the CC is supposed to be an important part of the Pack organization, but in this case. Well, the CC has been CC for as long as anyone can tell...at least 20 years. The committee never meets so it's pretty much a committee in name only. The COR is invisible, no idea who it is.

As a matter of fact, the CC thinks that the position is "Unit Commissioner" and has a UC patch on the uniform, although of course we have an actual unit commissioner who is not this person. So, it's a strange and disfunctional...well, nonfunctional...operation.

My question is, would you try to fix this or leave sleeping dogs lie? The CC being "hands off" means that we leaders are given the autonomy (and budget authority) to operate in the best interest of the boys. Pressing the CC to get involved could have unintended consequences...

Yeah, I know I'm not getting the support I'm supposed to have as CM but that doesn't bother me. It's just bugging me because it doesn't seem "right."

A little late to the reply on this one, but...

I have done this several times with our Den.

The advice above is good but I would also add to build in the concept of what GPS location is.

Here's how I've done our sessions. First, I mark a few very visble spots at the park--pavillion, water pump, etc. Then I hide some caches just for the Den and fill them with cool stuff--matchbox cars, etc.

Before we go out, I explain how every spot on the planet can be located like a grid. So that where I'm standing is different from where you're standing, and so on. Depending on how old your boys are, you can work in latitude and longitude. Then you explain how satellites let GPS units pinpoint the location.

Then I show a number of different cache types--peanut butter jars, ammo boxes, etc., and explain the concept.

Then I give them the GPS units and have them find the marked points. I set enough points so that each boy in the group can use the GPS.

Once they get that figured out, we head off to find the caches.

Pretty straightforward.

Thanks for all the replies. I was hesitant to impose a cutoff because the scouting program always tries to accomodate everybody, but the reality is that if you're in a building there's only so much you can do, and we planned the building based on the interest that was expressed. It's simply not like tent camping where you can usually accomodate another tent. But even with tent camping, you have deadlines and cutoffs. It is what it is.

Regarding separation and the rest. My theory is that the guidlines are "best practices" that are designed to protect the boys, the BSA and, last but certainly not least, YOU. If something does go wrong, unlikely as that might be, I always want to be able to say that I followed the rules.

But even with that said, there is a range of interpreation and an even wider range of practices that can satisfy those requirements. So as long as we have a BALOO trained leader (we do), our leaders are YP trained and trained for their position (they are), and we "do our best" to work with the guidelines in mind, I have some peace of mind.

Unfortunately in today's society it's easy to get bent out of shape about these things, and the fact that I have crammed in a lot of BSA training that gets jumbled in my head from time to time does not help the matter.

Lastly, and most important, the leaders and the pack are enthused and excited about our first-ever winter camping trip. That tells me we are going to have a great time and might even be dealing with bigger problems related to attendance/facilities next year--but that is a good problem to have.

I brought this up at CM training last night, first asking what other Packs do for winter in-building camping and then posing my specific scenario.

Just like in here, the answers ranged considerably. Most allowed Tigers, but some did not. Those that allowed tigers, some said the adult partner had to come per Tiger rules, others said assigning to an adult per pack overnighter rules is fine.

Some Packs held different camp events for dad and son and mom and son. Others opened up camp to the entire family. But nobody could answer what to do in the worst case scenario that every scout wants to come with mom and dad and all his siblings and your building isn't big enough and you don't have the right room configuration. And since reservations for winter camp facilities opens here in JUNE! you have to book your building before you even know what your Pack is going to look like in fall, let alone who might be interested in camping!

So then I posed my scenario. Our interest survey revealed 24 interested boys, about 16 interested dads, and 2 interested moms. No siblings expressed an interest so that simplified things a bit. Based on that we're pencilled in to a single-building camp that has one 30-bed room for the boys, one 10-bed room, and one six-bed room. So we can accomodate all the boys but will have to do some jiggling with the adults. The best answer anyone could give me for what happens if we do get to capacity or deal with other adult/child/gender issues and people are upset is "blame it on BSA guidelines."

Ok, after all this, I think the real answer is to bite the bullet, stop stressing over it, and just do what is likely to work best for the boys, because that's the reason we're doing this. Hopefully everyone is 100% happy but there is a chance things can go wrong.

(This message has been edited by gotta run)

Yes that's it. The answer seems to be that if the interest is there we could do some creative room configuration.

I am unsure on the tiger question though. Do they need their adult partner per TIger guidelines or can they be assigned to an adult per pack overnighter guidelines?

Cub scouts are not allowed to go winter camping, defined as "any temperature in which the scout would be uncomfortable" per my BALOO training and there is no way I would consider taking cubs tenting in January in Wisconsin.

Regardless, I would appreciate someone answering the question that I asked because that is the scenario at hand that I need to make work.

It's in winter.

All right, so could everyone tell me how you could make this situation work?

The scenario is that the council has a camp with a single building. In the youth sleeping area, there are 30 beds. The adult sleeping area is "co-ed," which equates to one room for men, one for women. The adult rooms sleep 10 and 5, respectively.

So, without doing any facilities reconfiguration, we have room for 30 youth and 15 adults.

Therefore, my questions are:

1. I don't see a way to open an "overnighter" this facility up to female siblings, correct?

2. Are Tiger Cubs eligible to attend this "overnighter?" And if so, must their "adult partner" attend?

Any other concerns?

You have to ask yourself, if not you, then who? And will you be happy with someone else in the role--and what will most benefit your son?

We have a committee in name only and our COR is invisible; neither provide any guidance to the pack and never hold any meetings. But on the other hand we as leaders have autonomy and are left alone to run the program, and we have a great group of pack leaders. Let's put it this way, I'm glad we don't have the CC or CO providing "guidance" to the Pack.

Don't know if that answers your question, but it all comes down to the people you have in place. It's extremely difficult to get anything done with the wrong people in place and unfortunately if they have "power" that they want to exert your options are limited and potentially unpleasant.(This message has been edited by gotta run)

Well, I passed out an "interested in Winter camping?" sheet with "likely to attend" questions at the pack meeting after explaining what winter camping was likely to be all about, and out of our pack of 30 scouts in attendance I had 24 scouts, 20 dads and 4 moms, and 2 sibilings "likely to attend."

So...looks like the interest is there...

Thanks for the practical advice, as well as the guidelines refresher. It appears I need to dig back into (yet another) manual. Sometimes I'm overwhelmed by the number of different manuals and guidebooks and online stuff, combined with reams of paper and a mindful of stuff from roundtables, Cub College, training sessions...makes me want to be one of these parents that thinks scouting is showing up 5 minutes before the meeting.

I understand that misconceptions can occur easily in the online world, so I would only remind everyone that new people here are not privvy to the inside baseball, and they might be feeling particularly stupid about their lack of ability to easily wrap their minds around all this "stuff." But as incoming CM I gotta know all this "stuff" before I present it to the pack and/or pack leadership for consideration. Hence the genesis of my question.

So what I'm hearing is...gauge interest, get a facility that will work and there are many ways to make different facilies work, get volunteers, make it happen. Keep it simple, make it fun...

>>Taking BALOO training (which is REQUIRED to take a Pack camping) will help with many of your questions.

Why would you assume I would not have BALOO training? Just because I have a question? Yes, I am BALOO trained but it is a different matter to learn something in a book and classroom versus putting it in place in practice. No need for all caps and snarky remarks.

Leadership requirements specify "Male and female require separate sleeping facilities...Male and female youth participants will not share the same sleeping facility." (BALOO handbook, Appendix N, items 4-5). But the handbook doesn't talk about ideas for making this work within a single facility. I read about the bathroom issue (Appendix N, item 7) but I didn't think "outside the box" and how that might be applied to the entire facility. And it's that kind of advice gleaned from experience that I am looking for.

As you can see, our Pack hasn't done this before so I have no reference point, no experience to go by, no number 6 from the "Six Steps of Planning" (BALOO handbook, Appendix C) to refer back to...yet.

Maybe I'm just too afraid of running afoul of BSA guidelines and should just find a way to "get 'r done" within the parameters of the likely-allowable and the spirit of the law.

Ok, I am getting myself totally turned around trying to figure out a winter camping idea to propose to the pack.

First off, our pack has not camped for many years and as far as I know has never cabin-camped in winter. However the interest is there and as a DL I was able to spearhead a pack family camping event this past summer, so I know the basic drill and logistics.

But Im trying to reconcile that with how to move the experience inside. CS camp guidlines say you need at least one adult family member camping with the boy for family camp. It's safe to assume we'd have co-ed adult interest, particularly because we have both male and female DLs. But on the other hand most of the council camp cabins are only two rooms of equal size, so Id have no idea how to handle that, without getting two buildings I suppose which may not be either possible or practical.

Anyway, some specific questions:

1. Cub Scout camping is supposed to be family camping. Now, while its unlikely that both mom and dad and the scout's siblings are going to want to spend their weekend at camp.... What do you do for PRACTICAL purposes? Do you open the camp only to scout and one adult family member?

2. How do you determine the size of the building you need? This is the chicken or egg question. Meaning, do you say, We need to know by X date who is coming, then we will reserve the building? Because the building may very well be spoken for by X date. But if you reserve a building for the size you think you might need so you make sure you can get it, what happens if you have more people interested than you can fit?

Wow. 17 is just far too many. So step one is to tell the parents (I would tell them separately, not at the Den meeting) that someone has to step up and lead Den 2, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Step 2 is to look at ways to make facilities changes to keep the boys more ordered. I say this because after dealing with many behavior problems and trying all the usual stuff--talking till I was blue in the face, asking boys to develop a code of conduct, talking to the parents, building in active activities to blow off steam--I'd still have many problems.

Then I realized most of the problems occurred after the meeting during "snack time" when I was going over the newsletter with parents. And during the meeting, problems happened when they were at tables (which were round) right next to each other.

Therefore, I swapped the order of the meeting so that we do the newsletter and upcoming events first, right after flags. That means after closing flags, get your snack and when you're done, leave.

Second, I moved to a room that had long tables and made name tents, pairing up the boys in pairs that I believed would cause less "trouble" (you already know what combinations of boys will cause the most trouble, right?). So, during "table activities," they are sitting by a partner that is preassigned. Even better, I left an empty chair between pairs, with the idea that this is for the parents who are "strongly encouraged even though you don't have to" stay.

Since I usually have about 95% of the parents stay (Bear den level), having the parents separated as well and by their boys, rather than in a big coffee klatch in the back making noise, is a big help!

Good luck, we've all been there.

>>Background: Used to be that our pack had a dysfunctional committee with a capital "D".

Wow...you mean there's more out there like that? ;-)

After two years as DL, I was talking to a leader from another pack and he got talking about this mysterious body called the "pack committee." Uh...the what?

"Well you know, the committee that 'helps the pack go?'"

"Uh....the what?"

"Maybe you've talked about the committee or seen a committee rep at your monthly leader meetings?"

"Uh...our monthly what?"

You get the idea...

They're called requirements, not suggestions. The answer is no.

Ok, I guess I should have seen the humor in that...but in today's society nothing is too ridiculous to believe people would get their shorts in a wad over! And too many forums that should be helpful are simply chances for people who never leave their computer to pounce on noobs...

Anyhoo, I'm optimistic about sock wars and it will follow a "dress the leaders as turkeys" event in November. I just took over for the CM and am trying to reenergize the pack, because our pack meetings are pretty much snooze fests at the moment. I think these activities will be a shock to the system and I'm really enthused about them, and enthusiasm is a key to making them work.

First thing to do is to bring it up at the first leader meeting and sell it to the other leaders. Since we've never had leader meetings...or committee meetings...or planning meetings...and I was asked 2 weeks ago to take over...I'm a little behind the 8 ball at the moment....

Oh good lord, I can only assume you are joking or being sarcastic. I seriously hope that this forum is not like so many others where people simply lurk out there waiting to flame people for every perceived indiscretion.

Socks=Snowballs. We have the latter a lot of the year where we live.

I realize this thread has died down but I'm new here and it was an interesting read.

As a DL I joined our pack and our CM was the only leader that wore a scout shirt. I didn't even know who the other DLs were and neither did the kids. I went and bought the whole uniform cap to socks and wore it proudly and I didn't care that it might look like I was trying to one-up anybody. The uniform stands for something and it should be worn proudly AND COMPLETELY by everyone who has earned the right to wear it.

Over the course of my service I've added everything to the uniform that I've earned. I tell the boys they should be proud of the uniform and keep it current, so why shouldn't I? I'm proud of it as well, even though I know the program is about the boys and not me. I feel that it's part of leading by example.

Our Den got red vests (no one else had them) and we started adding patches for every activity we could think of doing. Yes, they're called "brag vests" and maybe that term isn't real scout-like, but guess what? At pack meetings, the other dens would see them and ask abou the activities. And our den was proud and excited.

And guess what? Today all the other DLs have uniforms too--or at least an official shirt.

So, I see no need to downplay, omit, or apologize for anything that you are entitled to wear on your official uniform.

This year we're trying sock wars for the first time...Have everyone bring a pack of socks. Parents roll them into balls while the Dens and siblings spend 10-15 minutes building forts out of cardboard sheets. Kids stay behind the fort and in between is the DMZ. When the whistle blows, start tossing. When they run out of ammo (and the ammo replenishes because of socks that go over the fort walls), blow the whistle and go to the DMZ to reload. Afterward donate the socks, which I'm told (???) stay in fine shape. We'll see how it goes...