BPwannabe@137

"why we fold the flag into a triange"

I had to read that at least three times to see my error.

Darn it.

It has been corrected wherever I found the phraise. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

I could sit here and fire back some cute answer. Or go to my book shelf and pull down text books and quote names.

Its like being back in criminology 400 and argueing why people commit crime. No right or wrong answers. Opinions are like A..H...s We all have one.

Enough. My fingers hurt from typing. I say uncle.

Oh and buy the way,

I do count librian and historian as postion of responcibility.

Bob White,

Bob, may I call you Bob, or is it Mr. White??

Judging from one of the posts, I think this might be getting old. I would be happy to discuss this with you further as I think this makes for interesting conversation. I think the rest of the forum is tired of it. Contact me.

Its been fun...

Bob White,

I feel like we are talking in circles. I am a much better speeker then writer and I think you are looking too much into this.

So I don't beat this to death, let me sum up my feelings again. Yes, you can teach people, train them, give them the benefits of how to, but if they don't apply it, they are not going to be leaders. What makes them apply it? Is it a God given talent, is it something that they learned and was hidden in the subconsence, or is it a tramatic event that makes them snap. Don't know. Spent a long time trying to figure it out.

I am not saying that we should not give this training to all. Teaching all young men to lead is what makes the BSA great. I am just saying that not all rise to the occasion.

I know you are in disagreement, and as in the past, I always respect your opinions, and for the most time agree. Just this time, my experience has taught me different.

PS-I don't hate books. Rather like them. Meet a few I didn't care for, written by social scientists whos opinions I disagree with.

The eagle scout rank does require you to take a leadership role in organizing a project.

This is were a scout who may not have been a green bar position but still rises to the occassion as a "leader" and takes control of the project.

This requirment was added for a reason. It is here that you must show you are a leader.

So is every scout a leader?

Bob White,

Nurture vs nature is the base of all arguements. Without getting all religious, I sometimes think that people have skills they are just born with, and it takes something to bring it out; be it a tramatic situation, a golden opportunity, or a well taught training session. So is a born leader "taught or trained", well in that sence of the arguement, I agree.

I tend to look at the real world as oppossed to some text books. I have worked with people who by birth right, education, training, social status, are appointed leaders. Yet when it came to taking charge of situations, the low man rose and took charge. Nurture or nature, hell if I know.

I think the problem I am having is with what we define as a leader; or the quality of leadership. For example, can everyone be trained to be an athlete? Although you might train for hours throwing a ball, in the end, if you don't have a good arm, your pitch still sucks. Trained, practised, tested, but still not an athlete. I don;t know if you can apply the same to leadership, but from what I have seen, training does not always work.

In the end, for arguements sake, the BSA teaches young men how to be respponcible and leaders amoung their peers. But even leaders need to be lead. Ideally, the SPL and the PL should be those people. Again, maybe a romantic view, but one that makes me happy.

thanks for the complements. Food for thought...

My pack meeting last night was a combination of showing off collections and a salute to veterens. I brought down my collection of American military uniforms (from 17th century new england militia to 21st century) and had a cub model the uniforms (hat jacket and cartiridge box) When we were done, we had a timeline of 11 uniforms representing the major wars of our nations. For each war, I mentioned some small piece of trivia (like the tricorn hat on the continental solider is why we fold the flag in a triangle, the nichname "doughboy" comes from the Mexican War nickname for US soldiers "adobes").

When I dressed the scout in the WW1 unform, I just stood next to him in my vintage scouter uniform. One of the boys yelled out, Mr. Keenan, you look like a WW1 soldier. I then explained that scouting started in 1910, and well, you know the rest of the story.

Uniform heritage is a wonderful thing. We call it customs of the service. If and when we redesign the BSA uniform, lets not throw out the baby with the bathwater. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

PS Bob White,

"negate the need for sociologists"

Like lawyers...way too many with too many opinions. Present company included.

(Insert smiley face...still can't figure out how to do that)

Bob White

Maybe I am too quick on the draw.

Of course a persons upbringing, schooling, moral and social interactions with both the larger and smaller group will influence his/her overall personality. By the time a person is around middle school, you can begin to see many different personality traits developed. Some can be developed more, others can be changed. However, I believe, and again this is a school of thought, that certain things can't be schooled, they are just born in you.

For example, every human can draw a picture. Some might look like a chicken drew it with a pen in its rectum, others might look OK. But only the artist, someone with the passion and the true ability to draw (or paint) can produce a work of art. Yes, people do go to art school and study, and practice, but do thye trully produce the work of art?

Out of all the men who held he highest office in the nation, are they all true leaders? Without a doubt, most of these men were elected for their charisma, charm, speeking ability, service records, fat pocket books, or whatever. Although they can run the nation, are they all leaders? Coolage as President on the eve of WW2 ? Martin Van Burean during the Civil War ?

There is something in certain people that make them rise to the occassion. To take charge, to lead by example, to stir the blood of their fellow men and make them follow. Young men and women are trained to be leaders at West Point. They are chosen because they have already shown leadership ablility. However, only a few rise to the rank of General.

So yes Bob White, I do agree that you can teach boys to be leaders. The BSA has done so (Steven Ambrose uses that illustration as to explain why the GI and Tommy were better then Hitlers troops, Boy Scouts vs. Hitler Youth)and will contine to do so. But its those youth who has it in them to take what we teach them and apply the knowledge. It is the application of that knowledge and the fire inside that brings the leader to the top.

Call me a romantic. We have all read read about these leaders of men, heard the stories. I have witnessed it first hand, many times, and believe it. So are born leaders.

"Not every boy is a leader". This statement was made by myself after years of experience and studies (yes, academic-I am a sociologist by training). In groups of men (or in the case of BSA, boys), anyone can be taught to be a supervisor. Supervisors are nothing more then trained workers, who know the job or operation well enough to make sure it runs smoothly and gets the task completed. Good employees generally don't need supervisors; they go about their business and do their job as assigned. A PL or SPL can be trainied to be a supervisor.

A person can be trained to be a leader, but only those with it trully inside of them can rise to the occasion and make men follow them. Without being dramatic, a good supervisor can lead a squad of men into a combat zone, but a leader can get them to follow him into a machine gun nest.

You can see who are leaders in the scouting world, the work force, and the military. The young scoutmaster with no square knots, the old army NCO, the teacher who should be working in a better school for better pay; they are all leaders without the marks of supervisors.

Sorry Eammon, leaders are born, not trained.

The requirements state position of responcibility, not leadership.

There are several things to take in mind,

Not everyone is a leader. That is not a bad thing, nor should everyone be a leader. Also, sometimes, the popular boys win elections, and they may not be good leaders. Also, in a large troop, if you hold elections every six months, how can every boy get a chance at a leadership position. Therefor, to qualify for the rank, you must assume a responcibility role in the troop.

Without a doubt, SPL is the hardest role. Is ASPL as hard as SPL. No way. Does that make the position "less important". No. In my old troop, the ASPL was in charge of the leadership corps. Librarians, Historians, Scribes, Den Chiefs, and QM's (a thankless job) all have responciblities that are pretty hefty. (remember, these jobs are troop level, not patrol level) Any scout that properly does the job shows responcibility and deserves the qualification in rank.

I rmember way back to the days we wore olive (sniff, tears to my eyes) and my friend wanted to be the chaplin's aid. We thought it was a BS job too. Well, he worked with the parish priest to develope prayers for our COH and special meetings, put together universal services for Sundays at Camp (including readings and music), and became the coordinator for the religious awards programs, for all faiths. He even acted as a shoulder to cry on for scouts who needed spiritual assistance. That is responcibility and in a sence, he took leadership of that position.

My recommendation is to have guidlines written out for these positions, and if needed, add additonal requirements such as merit badge instructor, to beef up the positions. Have check list, evalution forms, ect. When you are done, the scribe ends up doing as much as the SPL, and contributing as much to the troops program.

Before I start babbling on someting not relatred to the question, I will cut to the chase:

Keep the colors as they are for all programs. Pants can be a little more roomy with large pockets and possibly eveny convertable to shorts. Shirts should have a yoke and real collars. Bring back a uniform necktie (olive or tan) for adult optional wear. Also bring back the flat overseas hat for optional wear. Make a cheap campaign hat for youth optional wear. Keep the ball caps for scouts but get rid of the stupid red front and go all green. Go import to cut down price.

Now for my two cents-as a collector of uniforms, I have alot of different styles. Depending on my mood, I will wear the current tan and green (with nolice necktie and campaign hat) or the older style poly wool dress uniforms (forest green tie and overseas cap or campaign-for blue and gold and COH I have a blue cub leaders tie for this uniform). For hikes and camping I am wear the 1960's wool (I have cotton for the summer)with leggings and campaing hat (and yes a tie-hell if Patton's troops could wear one in combat, so can I).

Alot of the leaders really like the styles I have. They even said that if they were available and not expensive, they would even buy a complete uniform. About half the adults i know like the older green unforms. Most cubs like the campaign hats too and think that all boy scouts wear them. I bunch of adults have been asking the scout shop in NYC for ties and overseas caps.

The answer??? The BSA needs to realize that the kids should have more activity based uniforms (not dockers and polos) that also double for parades. The adults need the option of looking more professional.

kraut-60: I have a dress tunic and with the square knots and a campaign hat and it looks really cool. Pie in the sky, that would be a really cool if the BSA brought it back, but I don't think most people would go for it. At least a neck tie would work.

Very nice. With your permission, I would also like to use that too, abridged, for my cubmaster's minute.

Chris

My friend will be heading down south sometime in the next two weeks. Once I have the hats in my possession and I physically inspect and inventory all, I will post my email and will take orders. I want to get a size, description (ie USMC or US Army style), and condition of each hat, I will price them and get you the info. The smaller sizes will be in new condition and the larger ones used but good.

Keep in touch.

Chris

I have three girls and one son (whom is refered to as "the boy"-sorry too much Simpsons).

My good friend is a cubmaster in England. He told me how it is coed and works well. I pondered the thought. Ran through the program. Even ran some "table top" exercises.

My results...

My daughters are happy in girl scouts. They like socializing with other girls. They like talking to female leaders when they are facing the issues of growing up. Although I offered to be a leader, they don't want Dad around. They wish they could do more cool things like the boy scouts and work with the leaders to get those results.

The boy and his den buddies like girls, like playing with girls, may even like kissing girls (hope not). They even like it when their older girl scout sisters helped out at day camp. But they do not want girls in cub scouts. The boy summed it up by saying, "sometimes we boys just want to be with other boys".

Sorry, the program is designed for little boys. It works. Girl scouts are designed for little girls. It works too. I wish people would just stopping living to buck the system.

Oh, and before someone says, "it works in England", last time I checked, we were not English. Not an insult, just a fact.

That is a very interesting thought, and one that I need to think of some more.

Since election day in NYC in a holiday, my coworkers and I were trying to take a nap (no, really, a nap) when some voters walked in and asked if the polling place is here-my office is in Grant's Tomb (yes-I work with a dead president, laugh, laugh, but he is alot easier to protect then a living one). We redirected them to the apartment house around the corner. They asked why isn't the polling place in government sites and we explained that it would be inappropriate. Anymore appropriate then a school or fire house (again-government run). I just told them that the president and the staff enjoyes the quite and left it at that.

Happy election day and remember, if you don't vote, you have no right to complain for the next four years.

I have to say that I like alot of the options people are saying for new uniforms. KS-you have the best ideas yet. However, we know that some group of scouters will hire a marketing company to redesign the uniform, talk to kids (non scouts), and come up with some outlandish uniform.

Maybe something like... (this is were we start playing time travel sound effects)

First-do away with our current logo-to military (remember the spear head arguement made against BP) Replace with a more kid friendly animal like a Pokemon Figure.

Hat-tri-colored ball cap, low crown and super long bill with a cute logo cartoon figure on frount.

$35.00

shirt-blue, tan, green, silver, or gold, depending on your activity/position. Again, cute cartoon logo on left chest. "scouts" stiched along cuffs. Wear do you wear your lodge patch, rank, office, and council strip??? Patches, we don't need no stinkin patches. Besides, these only make those youth that don't want to apply themselves feel, unwanted and unloved. The new uniform puts everyone on the same playing feild.

$55.00

Belt-no belt since shirts are worn untucked.

Pants-super baggy, tan. No belt so the waist line can show off your "scouters crack".

$75.00

Vest-because if Old Navy carries vests, then they have to be cool. Wear all your patches on the vest, just like the girl scouts.

$55.00

Shorts-again, supper baggy and long. SO long that they can double for pants. Therefore, the price,

$75.00

neckerchef-multicolored imitation silk. No slide needed, just tie around your neck like a disco dancer. Very cute and unisex

$15.98

(Enter the time travel music again)

So what we will have is a very stylish outfit. It will be praised by some as bringing us to the 21st century, breaking us away from looking like the military or some outdatesd South African Constabale. After all, who wants to look like a rough, strong, self reliant, mature, professional soldier anyway. Every kid wants to look like a hamburger flipper.

Oh, buy the way, the future reports that kids are not wearing their scout uniforms because they cost too much, they need to be constructed better, and their friends see them and make fun of them for being scouts.

Sorry, just needed to rant...---...

Uncleguinea,

I have several 1960's and earily 1970's poly/wool uniforms, complete, with ties, belts and overseas caps (wool with silk lining). I wear them to roundtables, all my cub meetings, and on camping trips (I found two complete uniforms in rough shape and don;t mind wearing them camping). Yes it does look a little WW2ish but other scouters and scouts like it. Its my style, it sends a message of what I am about and the scouting program that I deliver and I am very comfortable. Good for you and don't stop wearing it because you feel out of place.

For district dinners and other formal events, I also have the current issue poly wool uniform and wear it with the BSA olive tie and BP hat. Again, very good uniform but expensive.

The BSA needs to cut the prices on the uniforms, make some construction changes, and redesign the ball cap (solid green).

And who says that boys are not attracted to military uniforms? Most of the scouts i know want their uniforms to look military like. Also, most boys want structure and organization to their life, even if they don;t say so. Besides, by making the boys wear the uniform, it gives them an excuse to wear their "rebellious" clothing "off duty". Its part of growning up and part of being an American.

Gasp-I must agree with Eamonn.

We will never get it right. Also, half will like it, half will hate it. Just leave it alone.

I brought this subject up to my bear scouts. We have pack t shirts, but most boys want to wear their button down shirts-why-because the want to display their patches and awards. Most of my boys cant wiat to get a boy scout uniform. Some (over half) even want campaign hats. However, there are the other half that we are lucky they wear the pack t shirt. Its not the uniform, its the person (and the parents). These are the same people who have no problem going to a wedding in a polo shirt, go going to church in a tank top. Its just their style.

I have no problem if they change the pants to cargo, tan, convertable shorts, BDU's, whatever. Pants change with styles (even the military). But the button down shirt is a uniform. Looks good with a neckerchief, you can display patches, and looks dressy if you need it to be. Leave that alone.

Final thought: boys don't wear their uniforms because they look dorky. Boys are made fun of if others know they are scouts because of the lifestyle. The oath and law is something you live by. Ones others find out, kids can be cruel.

Food for thought. Don't get indigestion.

As a youth, Greater New York Councils ran Spruce Pond Scout Camp in Tuxedo, NY. Since it was upstate, it was almost like an outpost camp (remember, we were all New york City kids and anything north of the the city was an outpost). Camp was situated on top of a huge hill with a pond in the middle of it-always reminded me of a volcano with a lake in the cone. There was a water pump and a troop size lean-to with an army surplus Ben Franklin stove inside. We would buy a bag of coal from the campmaster to burn in the winter. The camp was always a highlight of our year since we always camped there in December so we can test out our cold weather skills. Of course, there were train tracks near by and the "ghost train" would roll by at night.

Similar stories, camp was sold in the 1980's to bail out the council. At least it is part of the NY state park system and is preserved.

OK-Looks like we have around 400 campaign hats of various sizes. The smaller ones are new, never worn. The larger sizes are used but in good condition. We are working on getting these shipped to my home and I will announce the sale. Again, around 10.00 each plus shipping.

will keep you posted.

Those that I sent private messages from I did recieve and I am keeping. I will check back to this thread and contact you all went we get the hats in hand.

thanks for the interest.

One thing that really gets me annoyed is seeing a troop of scouts and no one is wearing the same pants. Jeans, parachute pants, cut offs, old navies, ect. The most common complaint I hear is the cost and construction.

Why cant the BSA just develop a simple pair of work jeans. My agency (US National Park Service) has work jeans for us rangers when we are doing dirty work. They look like trousers, are dark green, have pockets and belt loops (even a watch pocket) and are made of denium. They wear like iron and keep their color. Our happen to be forest green but I know that other agencies use the same pants in brown and tan (in case the BSA wnats to change the pants color) We only pay 17.00 a pair for them (and thats inflated from the uniform company making a quick buck off the government).

Echoing a question from another thread, how do we ask the BSA to look into this??

I have no problem with this, however, I think by changing the pants/shorts color to tan to match the shirt would resolve the fading problem. I don't like the tan pants idea, but I have a funny feeling thats the next big uniform change.

One other thing. Convertable pants/shorts are OK so long as the BSA still carries proper trousers for those of us that are a little more behind the times with fashion.

I too would love to see it.

I have been experimenting with army surplus coats (OD and grey no camo) for scout use. They are cheap and adds uniformity during the winter months. Problem is availibility and getting small sizes.

I love the wool jack shirt but its cost prevents most boys from owning one. If the BSA could develop a layering jacket system in neutral colors (ie red, green, grey, but please no yellow) that would be great. This way my son woun't go to school on Monday with his heavy coat smelling like smoke.